.44 - 40 Sixgun?

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:57 pm

I have several .44 - 40´s.

I would like to know, what "plain Jane duty" type handguns were ever manufactured?

I know, of course, all the SA´s: Colt, Uberti, Beretta, ... you name it.

But were there any DA´s made?

Colt´s, Smith´s ... with 4 to 5" barrels?

At the moment I am thinking about buying a cheap second hand 4" .44 Mag ( but the best would be a Mountain Gun, and I hardly would get that cheap )( or a .44 spl ??? ), and have a spare cylinder hand fitted to it ... not cheap ...

;-(

BTW, is it possible to just ream the original .44 mag cylinder up to .44 - 40?

Any hints, Gents?

TIA, Hermann

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:00 pm

Was it a Smith Texas Ranger - think I know where one is for $3,000

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:31 pm

Arminius wrote:
BTW, is it possible to just ream the original .44 mag cylinder up to .44 - 40?

Yes and no. You can, but what you end up with isn't really a .44-40, in which case there's really no point.

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:40 pm

Howdy

No, it is not feasable to ream out a 44 Mag chamber to 44-40. Even though the base of the 44-40 is larger in diameter, the neck of the 44 Mag is larger in diameter. So if you reamed out the 44 Mag chamber you would have over size dimensions at the case mouth.

44-40:

44 Mag:

44-40 was one of the standard chamberings for the Colt Model 1878 Army and Frontier, a large frame double action revolver. 44-40 was one of the standard chamberings for the New Service model. I am still kicking myself because I did not grab one I came across a few years ago. This is basically the same gun that Colt adapted into the Model 1917 chambered for 45 ACP.

In the 1880s S&W offered their 44 DA model, which was usually chambered for 44 Russian, in 44-40, calling it the 44 Double Action Frontier. This was a large Top Break revolver built on the #3 frame. There were a few Triple Locks (44 Hand Ejector, 1st Model) that came with auxiliary cylinders chambered for 44-40. There were also a small number of 44 Hand Ejector 2nd Models chambered for the caliber.

I have seen Merwin Hulbert double action revolvers chambered for 44-40.

I'm sure there were others.

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:47 pm

In the recent past I found a Ruger Vaquero in 44-40 and bought it. No, it's not a double action but a really nice single action revolver, case colored frame, which looks barely used. Keep your eye open for a Ruger. Price paid? $395.00

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:35 pm

Colt made their New Service in .44-40 though expensive these days they were the utility sixguns of their day.
I had a sweet nickel plated version years ago and foolishly sold it.

jb

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:46 pm

Driftwood Johnson wrote:Howdy

No, it is not feasable to ream out a 44 Mag chamber to 44-40. Even though the base of the 44-40 is larger in diameter, the neck of the 44 Mag is larger in diameter. So if you reamed out the 44 Mag chamber you would have over size dimensions at the case mouth.

Thank you, Sir!

Although I have seen a .44 mag round chambered fully in a .44 - 40 --- it was an Original 92, so perhaps lots of tolerance ...

Hermann

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:47 pm

Steelbanger wrote:In the recent past I found a Ruger Vaquero in 44-40 and bought it. No, it's not a double action but a really nice single action revolver, case colored frame, which looks barely used. Keep your eye open for a Ruger. Price paid? $395.00

of course, I would buy Rugers and Ubertis with short barrels, too, if not insanely priced!

Hermann

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:20 pm

I have shown this Colt New Service 44-40 D.W. King's conversion before but here it is again. I love shooting it and its a pretty good barbecue gun.

RR7

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:26 pm

I own this model 544 s&w texas wagon trail commemertive. It is a 5" 44-40. I have never shot it.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:58 pm

Booger - there is one like it at the guns shop now. I think it is listed at $2,000 to $3,000 - I'll have to check.

44-40 Willy · Post by **44-40 Willy** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:35 am

I've owned a Vaquero in 44-40 and would not recommend one to anyone. Ruger used the oversized 44 Mag barrel, which in combination with the tight chamber necks makes for very poor accuracy. Ruger has also refused to do anything about it stating that the gun functions correctly. It might function correctly, but it'd be tough to hit anything small with.

One of the guys over at Marlin Owners has the Smith 544 and really likes it.

cas · Post by **cas** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:26 am

I've opened plenty of them up to .4305". Like I said, what you end up with isn't really a .44-40 anymore, and you have to custom load for it, but at least they shoot.

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:31 am

I was aware of the talked-about Ruger cylinder problems when I bought my Vaquero. The first thing I did after bringing it home was to slug the cylinder, learning that the mouths were .430. So either Ruger made it that way or someone had the gun worked over. I have no idea of this revolvers past.

Winter being in full bloom I only got it to the range one time, finding that it shoots low with my first trial loads although the groups were decent. I won't be filing the front sight to raise POI just yet but I'm not the least bit worried regarding accuracy. The barrel is nice and smooth, requiring minimal cleanup after the initial 100 rounds fired.

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:23 am

Howdy Again

Ruger did eventually produce 44-40 Vaqueros with chamber throats that were a better match for the .429 rifling groove diameter.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:41 pm

Old savage, WOW! I bought mine years ago from a janitor at lockheed. Guess he needed money. It appears unfired. I belive he also gave me a full box of 44-40s that I still have. I never shot it eather. I would have never guessed they would go for about half that! A couple years ago I also sold a texas ranger commerative with the knife that I bought new from I think that old hardware/auto parts store on east ave I. P&T auto parts? (In the 1970s). Seriously, I would have guessed maybe $900s to a $1,000s, but I havent seen any for sale in twenty years either. Maybe I will put it up!

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:47 pm

Greetings
Have an old New Service down here with me that has no finish and some pitting. On the inside of the barrel it looked near new as so with the cylinders. This is very common as store bought ammo is pricey and has been since 1986 when we arrived. But this one shoots fine for me out to 25 yards.
But for the whole sum of $185 it came home with me and sits right now still in it's storage mode till I get a chance to get it out. Rainy season is going full tilt here so no trips out to the hills to shoot as it gets real muddy up there outside of town.
So there are some real bargains to be found but you may have to travel 6000 miles to get there.
Mike in Peru

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:27 am

rangerider7 wrote:I have shown this Colt New Service 44-40 D.W. King's conversion before but here it is again. I love shooting it and its a pretty good barbecue gun. RR7

That is a beauty!!!!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:38 pm

I recently had a "discussion" with someone about the .44-40 who assured me they shoot black powder "all the time" and there was no way 40 grains of black powder would move a 200gr bullet over 1200 fps as that is .44 magnum territory. At that point I told him to stick to talking about things he knew something about. He doesn't like me much now.

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:34 pm

rangerider7 wrote:I have shown this Colt New Service 44-40 D.W. King's conversion before but here it is again. I love shooting it and its a pretty good barbecue gun. RR7

Wanna sell?

A BEAUTY!

Hermann

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:36 pm

Booger Bill wrote:I own this model 544 s&w texas wagon trail commemertive. It is a 5" 44-40. I have never shot it.

I am sure, its beyond my financial means ...

WOW!

Congrats!

Hermann

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:37 pm

That´s a Smith N Frame!

By God, shoot it!

H

Arminius · Post by **Arminius** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:40 pm

44-40 Willy wrote:I've owned a Vaquero in 44-40 and would not recommend one to anyone. Ruger used the oversized 44 Mag barrel, which in combination with the tight chamber necks makes for very poor accuracy. Ruger has also refused to do anything about it stating that the gun functions correctly. It might function correctly, but it'd be tough to hit anything small with.

THANKS!!!

cas · Post by **cas** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:45 pm

The Ruger's aren't all that way, some of them have the right size barrel. The problem is you can't tell just by looking at them.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:04 pm

I have 7 various .44 specials and 4 of them are smiths plus I have a .44 mag s&w 29-2 5" that looks just like the 44-40. Thats why I havent shot the 544 yet. Maybe I will some day. The ruger is also a lipsey in .44 special. The other two are .44 specal colt saa`s.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:40 pm

Great collection there Bill.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:39 pm

Thanks. I got three of them from jacks gunshop way back. The Hd that I had jack trott convert, the 4 3/4 colt, and the 24-3. Miss that place.

Driftwood Johnson · Post by **Driftwood Johnson** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:20 pm

I recently had a "discussion" with someone about the .44-40 who assured me they shoot black powder "all the time" and there was no way 40 grains of black powder would move a 200gr bullet over 1200 fps as that is .44 magnum territory. At that point I told him to stick to talking about things he knew something about. He doesn't like me much now.

Howdy

I shoot Black Powder all the time. I go through about 20 pounds every year loading cartridges for CAS. I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40, 45-70, and 12 gauge with Black Powder. Have been doing so for over 10 years now. So hopefully I know what I am talking about.

First off, modern solid head brass does not have the same case capacity that the old balloon head cases did. The solid head results in less case capacity than the old balloon head cases. So generally speaking, even though the cartridge is called 44-40, and you could fit 40 grains into the old cases, you are not going to loading 40 grains of BP into modern cases.

Secondly, not all Black Powder weighs the same. It's not like modern Smokeless where you will consistently get the same amount of powder year in and year out when you load up some Unique or Bullseye, or whatever. BP varies both in weight and potency by brand. It will also vary by lot over the years. I keep a chart in my loading notebook of how much my standard charges actually weigh. For both 44-40 and 45 Colt I pour in 2.2CC of FFg. This gives me an optimal compression of between 1/16" - 1/8" when I seat the bullet. Checking my chart, 2.2CC of Goex FFg weighs 31.3 grains, 2.2CC of now defunct Elephant FFg weighs 37.5 grains, and 2.2CC of my current favorite, Schuetzen FFg weighs 33 grains. Now clearly, I could easily squeeze in just a little bit more Elephant if it was still being made, to bring it up to 40 grains. But bringing either Goex or Schuetzen up to 40 grains will involve some pretty serious compression, more than would have been used in balloon head days.

Anyhoo, lets look at some numbers. Some years ago I ran my 44-40 loads over a friend's chronograph. With a 200 grain bullet out of the 24" barrel of my Uberti replica Winchester Model 1873, the velocity averaged 1015 fps. Yes, I probably could have crammed a bit more powder in, but it would be tough to cram in 40 grains of Goex FFg, the powder would wind up as a solid plug.

But this thread is about 44-40 in a revolver, not a rifle. I don't own a 44-40 revolver, so let's see what Mike Venturino has to say in his book Shooting Colt Single Actions. Using a Colt SAA with a 7 1/2" barrel, and a 200 grain bullet, here is the data:

Goex FFg -- 33.0 grains -- 936 fps.
Goex FFFg -- 33.0 grains -- 991 fps
Elephant FFg -- 35.0 grains -- 786 fps
Elephant FFFg -- 35.0 grains -- 900 fps
Pyrodex P -- 24.0 grains -- 979 fps

Notice that Mike is also only putting 33 grains of Goex into his cases, because as I said earlier, that is all modern cases will hold without compressing the dickens out of the powder.

Now lets see what Mike says about rifles in his book Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West. This time the test gun is a Navy Arms (Uberti) replica Model 1866 with a 24" barrel. This time the bullet is a slightly heavier 214 grainer.

Goex FFg -- 33.0 grains --1,147 fps
Goex FFFg -- 34.0 grains -- 1,213 fps
Goex Cartridge -- 33.0 grains -- 1,076 fps
Pyrodex Select -- 24.0 grains -- 1,223 fps

This book was published four years after the Colt book, Elephant was no longer available.

So there you have it. The highest velocity out of a 24" rifle barrel, with a case full of Goex FFg is a tad over 1,200 fps. Out of a pistol it is a shade under 1000 fps. Not really 44 Mag territory.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:52 pm

Howdy Driftwood.

That was a very informative post. While I'm not sure if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me, you did support my position that a .44-40 can achieve over 1200fps with BP, and that it's not .44 mag territory.

Btw, the discussion I was having was in a historical context which would have used the ballon cases.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:41 pm

Ok, to clarify the question - will black powder in a modern 44-40 case push a 200 gr bullet 1200 fps out of a pistol of 7 1/2" or less?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:12 pm

Old Savage wrote:Ok, to clarify the question - will black powder in a modern 44-40 case push a 200 gr bullet 1200 fps out of a pistol of 7 1/2" or less?

No. But, that was never the question.

The conversation I mentioned that caused this derail was discussing the original factory load in a '73 Winchester. Which in fact did do over 1200fps, but was not in .44 magnum territory.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:20 pm

Looks from the data here that in a rifle it s possible. Seems all the discussion was about pistols - never worked with the 44-40, don't think I ever fired one but 44 mag territory in a rifle is about 1800 with a 240. Seems there might be a little apples and oranges in different people's view points but .... that happens.

Title of the thread is 44-40 Sixgun?

natedontgo · Post by **natedontgo** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:44 pm

If you are considering buying a S&W Texas Wagon Tr.Comm. in 44/40 to SHOOT,you would do well to cylinger throat Diameters and the barrel internal dimension... Haven't seen any neg.commentary ,and been reading a LONG Time, on the cylinders,but there have been several posts on internet forum re: The last 544's off the production line used S&W barrels from their stock for 44 Spec.and 44 Mag. revolvers .(430+ or++ bores),,Doesn't really matter for a closet queen and can be dealt with by a reloader, so take it fwiw..Bought one NIB last week for $800, so there are still some showing up... Nate

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:57 pm

$80s for a nib 544???

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:11 pm

cas wrote:The Ruger's aren't all that way, some of them have the right size barrel. The problem is you can't tell just by looking at them.

I can. I'm that good.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:22 pm

Old Savage wrote:Looks from the data here that in a rifle it s possible. Seems all the discussion was about pistols - never worked with the 44-40, don't think I ever fired one but 44 mag territory in a rifle is about 1800 with a 240. Seems there might be a little apples and oranges in different people's view points but .... that happens.

Title of the thread is 44-40 Sixgun?

Sorry OS, I've convoluted things a bit. I was referring to the "conversation" I had with another fellow.

In any event, I have always had a respect for the cartridge from a historical and performance standpoint.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:51 pm

sore shoulder - I could see that but - still interested in the potential of the cartridge - who knows, one may come my way.

cas · Post by **cas** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:44 am

olyinaz wrote:
cas wrote:The Ruger's aren't all that way, some of them have the right size barrel. The problem is you can't tell just by looking at them.
I can. I'm that good.

After 10 or so years of looking at cylinders, I can pretty much eyeball 'em as being over or under. (45's anyway). Don't know if I could do it with a barrel.

The worst Ruger .44-40 I've seen was around .423" throats and a .430" barrel.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:12 am

Have a couple of Ruger BH convertibles, .44Mag/.44WCF, both shoot fine with their intended cartridges.

Must have changed things at photobucket do not know how to post pictures anymore...album is there, takes forever to open...but.

lets see if this works...

natedontgo · Post by **natedontgo** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:41 am

Corrected original post to show actual cost..$800. NOT $80,not even in Tijuana.!! Nate