What is more Prevalent 20 or 30?

[GonnePhishin]

Just wondering what cap is more prevalent in the service, 20 or 30 capmags?
Do the 30 cap have more jam/malfunctions than 20 cap?

[sore shoulder]

Standard issue for current service rifle is 30. They do not have any more issues than 20's. 20's are typically used in target type rifles since they don't hang down as far.

[olyinaz]

It's been years since the Army used 20s. I like them better myself, but that's just me.

Oly

[MrMurphy]

The 30 round mag has been standard issue longer than i've been alive (35 years) they began issue in mid Vietnam and around the late 70s were the standard. 20's still hang around, we had half a dozen per lane on our qual range, because the military doesn't get rid of anything.


Only guys I've known who actually used 20s for anything but that recently was a friend who took a magazine his dad had used in Vietnam (original issue 20 rounder) to Afghanistan a year or so back.

He was a platoon leader and used it to hold tracer for marking targets. One mag, two wars, it functioned fine.

You'll still see them hanging around, but not in daily use, they don't even make mag pouches which will hold them. Last time I used a 20 rounder was with blanks, playing OPFOR against a deploying unit in 2005.

[awp101]

It's been years since the Army used 20s. I like them better myself, but that's just me.

Oly

Eugene Stoner said in an interview that everyone was perfectly happy with the original 20rd mags until they ran into the Kalashnikov and it's 30rd mags then everyone started screaming for 30 rounders in the M16.

[GonnePhishin]

Thanks fellas for the information. I always appreciate and respect the advice given on this website

[L_Kilkenny]

It's been years since the Army used 20s. I like them better myself, but that's just me.

Oly

Eugene Stoner said in an interview that everyone was perfectly happy with the original 20rd mags until they ran into the Kalashnikov and it's 30rd mags then everyone started screaming for 30 rounders in the M16.

Short story I heard one time kinda confirms this. Between the 10 round difference and the slower rate of fire in the AK our guys were having to change out mags twice as often in a fight. IIRC, the navy was the first to get the 30 rounders and they were big hits on the black market before they became widely available to the other branches.

[AJMD429]

How about 20 vs. 30 for the M-14/M-1A guns...???

[765x53]

", they don't even make mag pouches which will hold them."

I don't believe they ever did.
We were using M14 pouches in '69-'71.

[jeepnik]

Sadly, I'm limited to 10. But way back when I used to fire things full auto, I found a 20 downloaded one or two was the most reliable. Don't know why, maybe the shape of the mag.

[Betterluckytg]

I recall an interview that had both Kalashnikov and Stoner and when Stoner was talking about the 20 round magazines, he was laughing as I recall, like it was funny. It wasn't funny at all when we heard an AK open up and as a result, I won't give my opinion of Stoner here. And no, I don't miss him.

[sore shoulder]

Mikhail: Nice toy, you will please to give me back my rifle.

Eugene: No.

[olyinaz]

In a firefight I'll take 30s for sure, but other than that they're a PITA I think. They make 20 round "tanker" AK mags as well and I like those quite a lot also. A 30 round .308 mag? Yeesh! That would be huge - way too bulky if you ask me - but again I'm not talking about firefights with two legged game here.

Oly

[Hobie]

", they don't even make mag pouches which will hold them."

I don't believe they ever did.
We were using M14 pouches in '69-'71.

Yep, was issued both canvas and nylon mag pouches for the 20-round M16 mags.

We used to save, this was an NG unit, the 30-rounders for "important" stuff and use the 20-rounders at the qual ranges. One never needed the 28-round capacity at the range anyway. That's not how any of the courses of fire were run. I still load the 30-rounders with 28. Yes, I like the 20-rounders.

[handirifle]

I was in 72-75 and all I ever saw were 20 rounders. Never knew a 30 rounder existed then. Even then we were told to only load 18, at least in boot camp, after that we always loaded 20.

We used M14 pouches though. Kinda an odd transition the military does.

[M. M. Wright]

I have trouble going prone with the 30 rounder. Requires canting the rifle to get low enough. Doesn't anyone else have that problem?

[olyinaz]

I have trouble going prone with the 30 rounder. Requires canting the rifle to get low enough. Doesn't anyone else have that problem?

Yes, that is the age old problem of 30 rounders. With the AK also.

From the bench is trouble with 30 rounders also. Pmag makes a nice 20 rounder! I have several of them.

Oly

[AJMD429]

I have trouble going prone with the 30 rounder. Requires canting the rifle to get low enough. Doesn't anyone else have that problem?

I wound up making my own rifle-rest for bench use, MOSTLY so I could shoot lever actions for sighting-in purposes without lifting up the gun each time I needed to work the lever, and having to re-settle into the rest. The higher clearance also works for large magazines though...



It makes shooting more enjoyable for me, helps me get 'newbies' started more easily, and only cost $20 bucks or so (I forget exactly) for the metal odds-and-ends, plus some scrap oak flooring boards. It adjusts fully for different lengths (M4 to M1-Garand) and different forend widths (narrow older leverguns to wide 'varmint' bolt-actions), and has adjustment for leveling as well as fine and coarse elevation. Also a removable shot-bag tray that can hold up to four bags of shot.

[tman]

", they don't even make mag pouches which will hold them."

I don't believe they ever did.
We were using M14 pouches in '69-'71.

Yep, was issued both canvas and nylon mag pouches for the 20-round M16 mags.

We used to save, this was an NG unit, the 30-rounders for "important" stuff and use the 20-rounders at the qual ranges. One never needed the 28-round capacity at the range anyway. That's not how any of the courses of fire were run. I still load the 30-rounders with 28. Yes, I like the 20-rounders.

Yeah, and 19 in the 20 was SOP way back when, if I remember correctly.

[damienph]

Being an MP ('73-'76), M16 magazine pouches were not part of our TA 50 gear issue. Whenever we shot our M16s, we had one 20 round mag and seven pocket cotton bandoliers with 5.56 on 10 round stripper clips (140 rounds) to reload our one magazine with. Sort of an MP version of Barney Fife's single bullet.
I don't remember seeing anything other than 20 round mags, no 30s.

I don't recall loading our mags with less than the full 20. Stripped off two 10 round clips into the mag; I honestly don't recall any problems with them. Being stationed in FRG, all of our live fire was done at a range.

I just realized; I began basic training at Fort Ord 40 years ago in March. 3/22/1973. Boy, that went by fast!

[jeepnik]

I have trouble going prone with the 30 rounder. Requires canting the rifle to get low enough. Doesn't anyone else have that problem?

I wound up making my own rifle-rest for bench use, MOSTLY so I could shoot lever actions for sighting-in purposes without lifting up the gun each time I needed to work the lever, and having to re-settle into the rest. The higher clearance also works for large magazines though...



It makes shooting more enjoyable for me, helps me get 'newbies' started more easily, and only cost $20 bucks or so (I forget exactly) for the metal odds-and-ends, plus some scrap oak flooring boards. It adjusts fully for different lengths (M4 to M1-Garand) and different forend widths (narrow older leverguns to wide 'varmint' bolt-actions), and has adjustment for leveling as well as fine and coarse elevation. Also a removable shot-bag tray that can hold up to four bags of shot.

I went another direction for a rest and it works, like your's on both AR's and leverguns.

[MrMurphy]

Never had issues going prone with 30s myself, but especially while wearing armor you're bulkier anyways and I can't get as low to the ground. During training with the full front/rear/side plates and the terrain we were on (hillside/pastures with waist high grass) half of us ended up laying on our sides to even get on target, going prone with a ruck means it beans you in the head and it's slower to get up.


The original AR-15 magazine was a 25 rounder, and the stocks were green colored plastic, since a big black object stands out.

The Army said 20 was good enough for the BAR and M-14, and demanded a 20 rounder and all black stocks, triangle (not round) handguards.

Combat experience showed the 25 (or 30) was wiser, and the M16A2 brought back the round handguard. Funny how the designer actually did know what he was doing........ And now colored stocks or painted rifles are authorized and the norm in units who can get away with it.

[jeepnik]

Never had issues going prone with 30s myself, but especially while wearing armor you're bulkier anyways and I can't get as low to the ground. During training with the full front/rear/side plates and the terrain we were on (hillside/pastures with waist high grass) half of us ended up laying on our sides to even get on target, going prone with a ruck means it beans you in the head and it's slower to get up.


The original AR-15 magazine was a 25 rounder, and the stocks were green colored plastic, since a big black object stands out.

The Army said 20 was good enough for the BAR and M-14, and demanded a 20 rounder and all black stocks, triangle (not round) handguards.

Combat experience showed the 25 (or 30) was wiser, and the M16A2 brought back the round handguard. Funny how the designer actually did know what he was doing........ And now colored stocks or painted rifles are authorized and the norm in units who can get away with it.

Body armor, what the heck is that? Oh yea, that's that fancy stuff kids have today, supposed to be much better that the "flak" jackets of my era.

[sore shoulder]

Yea I've never noticed any issues from prone and don't recall anyone complaining about it when qualifying.

Yes, actual armor is a lot better than a flak jacket lol. I was just talking with another NCO about you guys who went to war without armor, I can't imagine.

[jeepnik]

Yea I've never noticed any issues from prone and don't recall anyone complaining about it when qualifying.

Yes, actual armor is a lot better than a flak jacket lol. I was just talking with another NCO about you guys who went to war without armor, I can't imagine.

Hmm, a thought. Armor, as in knights, became obsolete when they found projectiles to penetrate it. And, we've been trying to come up with a replacement ever since, and the stuff today is pretty good as far as it goes. So, sooner or later directed energy weapons will come about making today's armor obsolete. I wonder what we will think up then. Something out of Star Wars I imagine.

[Hobie]

Being an MP ('73-'76), M16 magazine pouches were not part of our TA 50 gear issue. Whenever we shot our M16s, we had one 20 round mag and seven pocket cotton bandoliers with 5.56 on 10 round stripper clips (140 rounds) to reload our one magazine with. Sort of an MP version of Barney Fife's single bullet.
I don't remember seeing anything other than 20 round mags, no 30s.

I don't recall loading our mags with less than the full 20. Stripped off two 10 round clips into the mag; I honestly don't recall any problems with them. Being stationed in FRG, all of our live fire was done at a range.

I just realized; I began basic training at Fort Ord 40 years ago in March. 3/22/1973. Boy, that went by fast!

Time sure does fly. I was at Fort Jackson in June and out to the Presidio of Monterey (right near FT Ord) by September 1973. After some thought I know we didn't see 30-round magazines until we got to Korea.

[Mescalero]

I prefer the 20's and have quite a few of them.

[sore shoulder]

I prefer the 20's and have quite a few of them.

I prefer them for some things, and I have a penchant for collecting old Colt 20's. I also have several of the curved C Products 20's with Magpul followers. I've had a couple fail to feeds on the first round with the CP's, never ever with the Colt 20's.

[awp101]

I just realized; I began basic training at Fort Ord 40 years ago in March. 3/22/1973. Boy, that went by fast!

Time sure does fly. I was at Fort Jackson in June and out to the Presidio of Monterey (right near FT Ord) by September 1973.

I guess you two really don't want to hear that while y'all were playing in the Ft Ord area I wasn't quite two years old yet...

[AJMD429]

The 'LeadSled' folks have a model kind of like that; I got one, but don't leave it at the range-house, due to its cost. The other one is always there, ready to go...


http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/c ... d-Sled-DFT

At $249.99, the LeadSled-DFT cost a bit more than my 'Ace Hardware' version, but it was my birthday present to self a few years ago.

[7.62 Precision]

I like 20s.

30s can be used to rest the rifle if you don't have a bipod, and current 30 rd mags work great. I'm not so big on the 40s, just due to size.

I have not yet seen a 30 for an M14/M1A that was reliable. Seems it must be tough to make a 7.62x51 mag above 20 or 25 rds that works, plus the size gets pretty big.

[MrMurphy]

Agreed.

The Australians had a 30 round FAL mag for the automatic rifle version, but except in a few limited cases, it never seems to have been popular from the overall size.

[piller]

In the Mid 80's, I was always issued 1 20 round and 5 30 round magazines. I kept the 20 round one in the rifle since it was such a pain to dig out of the magazine pouches. I don't recall a single feed failure with anything when using the A2 version of the Mattel Toy, although I seldom had to use it since I was an M60 gunner. The only time I ever had a magazine or rifle problem was in basic training when I was issued an M16 that was not even an A1 version. It didn't have a forward assist, nor did it have the swelling on the side where the dust cover would hit it and stand up enough to where you could get your fingers on it. My dust cover would lay completely flat against the side of the receiver. That rifle also had a front sight that wobbled on each shot. I put a piece of tape over the protective ears and qualified by just point shooting. The magazines were all 20 round and failed about every 4th or 5th shot. They were so worn out that they should have been junked. One of them had a hole worn in the side from the years of wear. Before I turned them in for the final time, I used a finger and a thumb and crushed all 6 of them in so that they could not hold more than 7 rounds without the magazine follower getting stuck. One member of our platoon actually broke off a magazine when he hit the ground and rolled. Training with worn out junk was not what I would have considered a great idea.

[GonnePhishin]

Another probably dumb question.
Is the reason for curving forward the 30 and 40 cap mags to shorten the downward hanging length of the mag?

[sore shoulder]

Another probably dumb question.
Is the reason for curving forward the 30 and 40 cap mags to shorten the downward hanging length of the mag?

No it's to accommodate the case taper. If you lay enough 5.56/.223 rounds side by side you will eventually form a circle.