45 colt levergun

[FLINT]

Just for fun. I think my next new gun would almost have to be a levergun in .45 colt since I really like my bisley blackhawk in that caliber, and I'm going to start using the .452 xtps in my blackpowder rifle as well.

I like that Henry is made in America and I love my Henry .22, but the big boy is so, well, BIG and heavy and expensive.

The Rossi 92s are really sweet looking and much cheaper. So here is my question, is it worth any additional ballistic or sight radius advantage to go with a 20" barrel over a 16" barrel with the .45 colt in a rifle? Either one is way longer than my 7.5" ruger barrel. I saw somewhere a Rossi with a 16" barrel and thought that it might be pretty sweet.

Thanks

[yooper2]

I use receiver sights on all of my shorter rifles which helps a lot with the sight radius; I can't tell much difference from a bench between 16" and 20" fitted with receiver sights.
The short guns are awful handy but when shooting off hand they don't hang very well and I have a hard time hitting a softball past 75 yards regularly. Give me a 20" and I can roll a softball all day long past 100 yards. Those 4 little inches really help me, might not matter to you.
Might be worth asking around and shooting both to see what you like.
As far as increased performance, why worry about it? A 45 Colt with "Ruger only" loads and proper bullets will drop anything on this continent.

Eric

[J Miller]

yooper2 pretty much covered the barrel issue. The Trapper length guns are very handy, but do not balance well. My 94AE trapper is so muzzle light that it's very hard to keep the barrel down to see the sights.

The best balanced lever gun chambered for the 45 Colt I've used is the 20" Marlin 1894 Cowboy. The octagon barrel with that big .45 caliber hole in it makes for very nice off hand shooting.

Ballistically you won't gain much if any velocity.
Joe

[Old Savage]

Is it for carrying or shooting?

[Griff]

Is it for carrying or shooting?

+1. I love the look, feel and accuracy out of the EMF Harford Mdl Rossi 1892 with it's heavy octagon 20" barrel and factory sights. The difference between a 16", 20", or even the 24" versions will be determined more by the powder and bullet choices you make than the barrel length per se.

You could use different powders and end up with the exact same velocity out of the 3 different barrel lengths. So in actuality, there's not enough information in your post to properly answer the question. I.e.:

1 - What powder are you planning on using?
2 - Are the same bullets to be used?
3 - If you're going for the same loads as you use in the handgun, are you loading for optimal performance out of it's (relatively) short barrel?

The 1892 Rossi is the one .45Colt that I own that has its own loadings. Currently it's the ONLY .45Colt rifle that uses anything heavier than a 225grain cast bullet or heavier than a 200 jacketed. This is the manner in which I keep those loads out of my toggle links and original Colt sixguns. I also use some 200grain cast RFN out of it also for cowboy action, (when I feel the need to buck the trend and use a '92)!

[Doc.Holliday]

Well I got 3 rifles in 45 colt so I guess I really like the cartridge. I have Rossi and Winchesters.
The 16 inch barrel is handy for swamp and woods crawling and weight is important if your out the day.
The sight radius is short alright on the trapper and is worse the more far sighted you are.
The Rossi factory sights could not be any cheaper in construction or function and the action needs to be slicked up by a certain Rossi specialist or 5000 rounds and action cleaners.
The Winchesters are not near as rough the sights are a bit better but in my trapper again a short sight plane for aging eyes.
The 20 inch carbine is a world of difference in sighting.
No velocity changes with the extra 4 inch of barrel length.
In my honest opinion the carbine is more practical than the trapper but trappers seem to be the nostalgic flavor of the month and drawing crazy prices IF a Winchester.
Lot of accuracy issues with Rossi from barrel band pressure and forend wood. A lot of self and expert tinkering with them unless you get lucky. Good price though but again no trade in or residual value just shooters.

Respectfully

Doc.

[Grizz]

I have a 357 Winch with a 16" barrel and don't have any trouble knocking down 100M pistol rams with it. The shorter sight radius isn't crippling and I can hit as well with it as I can with my 18.5" 45/70 or my 32" one for that matter shooting off hand.

My daughter has a 20" stainless Rossi 45 cal model 92. One of the sweetest guns to handle in the universe. I can't hit anything reliably with it. Haven't worked on it to see why, but it doesn't hit like my GS does. Or the win ranger. It's a puzzle.

That Rossi has a very thin barrel, the thinnest one of any levergun I've shot. I don't say that these two things are connected. But it seems vulnerable in a way that the others don't. It is light and handy. Wish I owned it. I'd bob it to 16.5"

Grizz

[FLINT]

all good information - thanks!

I'll definitely try to handle some if I can find them anywhere. My son has a 16" Henry .22 and it doesn't seem bad to sight down.

I also see that Rossi has a 20" octagon barrel rifle. seems like the octagon barrel wouldn't be so thin.

I would probably use the same load I use in my Ruger - which currently is a 250 grain XTP and AA#9

[rogn]

My son and I eah have a Rossi '92 20"SS. Ive finagled quite a bit w/ elastomer shims and RTV. I also firelapped them. Both now have Wiliams receiver sights. The one I have is capable of 1.5- 2" at 100 yd. Mine likes Hornady 250s XTP and his likes Hornady 300gr XTP. Both use a load of H110 a tad below the listed maximums. His gets 1700 fps with the 300s. They are light and handy, but my sons w the 300gr bullets recoils a bit and does shake the magazine tube loose frequently. He won't le me fix it. Deer shot w/ the XTPs do not have long blood trails.

[Hobie]

Use what you like to use and don't worry about the barrel length so far as ballistics are concerned. Mount a receiver sight and don't worry about sight radius either.

A WAY back when I was debating (and I wasn't the only one) which barrel length to get for my Rossi, I finally settled on the 20" and it is plenty short and plenty long enough for any task. The .45 Colt can EASILY be loaded to duplicate the old .45-90 BP load and that is plenty of gun.

[Comal Forge]

I have a 16" M92 Rossi that gets used with WW296 and Hornady 250 XTP's handloads. My son and I use it on feral hogs and it's deadly to 50-75 yds. We don't make a habit of shooting any further than that so bullet drop is not an issue. I would rather carry a short carbine than a pistol in the brush and it's hard to beat the Rossi. I don't believe it makes much difference between the 16 and 20 versions but I can affirm that the 16 is very handy.

[FLINT]

Thanks guys, very helpful information. Sounds like I can't go too wrong, and I'll have to see what I like best.

[JohndeFresno]

...The .45 Colt can EASILY be loaded to duplicate the old .45-90 BP load and that is plenty of gun.

A great reason to consider buying a .45 Colt Handgun/Levergun combo! I never looked into that possibility - thanx, Hobie. Another argument for adding the .45 Lever to my stable.

[Hobie]

...The .45 Colt can EASILY be loaded to duplicate the old .45-90 BP load and that is plenty of gun.

A great reason to consider buying a .45 Colt Handgun/Levergun combo! I never looked into that possibility - thanx, Hobie. Another argument for adding the .45 Lever to my stable.

Just doing my best to spend your retirement check...

[J Miller]

To duplicate the old 300gr 45-90 BP load you need a 300gr bullet, an appropriate amount of H110/296 and a mag primer.
That will get you the velocity of the old 45-90 load.

Now, that load is a thumper out of a rifle. Out of a 7.5" Ruger BH I can shoot 6 to 12 max before my wrist is complaining bitterly.

It's a good fun load though.

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

Joe,

I was working on this post while you popped in yours, so here it goes for what it's worth:

I had always thought along the lines of comparing the great old .45-70 with the .450 Marlin and .444 leverguns. But you (Hobie) got me to running some comparisons, based upon what you said.

DISCLAIMER - loads not yet tested against known published loads with similar powder/bullet/firearm combination - for the sake of argument, ONLY.

Since I don't have any experience with really heavy bullets in a .45 colt, I used something that already exists as a heavy Colt Revolver bullet in the QuickLoad database - it's a foreign made job, a .451 caliber 325 grain cast "45 LC" FP HB (Flatpoint Hollowbase) WMEX #2072.

Note that, for example, one of our advertisers offers a 325 grain Lyman #452651 SW GC heat treated bullet that offers a double crimp groove - Montana Bullet Works. It just wasn't on my chart for 325 grains, and I needed a consistent comparison that would be similar to a bullet weight used in the old Buffalo era and early post-era black powder rifles.

Having described the criteria, I took a mid-300 grain bullet as the model creating loads for a MODERN, high pressure strength levergun and Ruger Blackhawk class handguns.

It would have to compare favorably with an old BP round in the area of 325-350 grains running about 1450 fps. This is an extrapolation from loads I have seen documented of .45-70 rifle and carbine loads (for soldiers). I realize that the standard 45-70-405 bullet hit a bit harder, but that is too large a projectile to launch from a handgun, and there were lighter loads ranging from 330 to 500 grains, from the material that I have.

Here is one example - again, DISCLAIMER that it has not been tested nor has it been compared against published material; for theoretical discussion from Hobie's post, only:
[QuickLoad calculations]
Bullet: .451 caliber 325 gr. "45 LC" FP-HB WMEX 2072
Powder: Alliant 2400, 16.5 gr.
Case filled: 91.4% COAL 1.580"

.45 Colt Blackhawk, 4.62" ("Sheriff/Gunfighter") barrel:
82.12% powder burned, 1067 fps, 31050 max PSI, ME 822 ft. lbs.
Given 35k psi as my standard, this is pretty much a MAX load.

.45 Colt Levergun (Modern strong action, 35-45k psi - correct?), 24" barrel:
95.72% powder burned, 1451 fps, 31050 max PSI, ME 1520 ft. lbs.*
* Falls within TKO (Taylor KnockOut) values for taking Elk, Moose, Grizzly bear

Very impressive. But to be quite rational about this, I wouldn't care to spend much time at the range with this handgun load in my little 42 ounce Blackhawk, so if I made a shared rifle/pistol round it would bark a little less, but still go through several inches of pine!

[Old Savage]

My loads from CowboyTutt do 1350 fps for a 360 gr out of a 20" Rossi.

[JohndeFresno]

My loads from CowboyTutt do 1350 fps for a 360 gr out of a 20" Rossi.

Do they fit in a wheelgun?

[Old Savage]

Yes, don't look any different than a regular Keith. Bullet takes up a lot of space in the case.

[rimrock]

In OP, Flint partly said: "I'm going to start using the .452 xtps in my blackpowder rifle as well." I have a Traditions 209 Tracker in 50 cal. Just received some of the TC sabot which holds a .452 bullet. Using some 290 grain RNFPGC .452 bullets dropped from a Lee mold, my gun brings lots of smiles while shooting at 100 yards.