What do you want a self defense round to do?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:35 pm

What do you consider adequate?

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Dead !! and I am sure that is what She intended.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:14 pm

Phaser set on #10 to atomize the threat and leave nothing behind.

Seriously ... stop the threat with minimal rounds expended. That way if there are multiple threats you can still come out alive.

Joe

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:31 pm

Removed

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:37 pm

9mm, good 124/127 HP, preferably +P. Sometimes I carry a .40 (issue) or .45 pistol, but with the 9mm ammo I have, it suits me.

38 Spl, 158 gr Lead hollowpoint +P, or 135 gr. Gold Dot. In a revolver, given the option, I'd rather have a .357 or bigger with 125-145 magnum loads

12 ga, OO buck if not a standard type deer slug

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:38 pm

Maximun expansion with 100% penetration. I want 2 large holes to let the "go juice" out.

Chris

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:55 pm

I want them to put the bad guy down in a quick hurry. That is why the gun I have on hold is in 45 acp.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:59 pm

JReed wrote:I want them to put the bad guy down in a quick hurry. That is why the gun I have on hold is in 45 acp.

Yep. 45ACP +P HP's.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:02 pm

JReed wrote:I want them to put the bad guy down in a quick hurry. That is why the gun I have on hold is in 45 acp.

Yep, 5 of 'em in my safe. Heard a noise in the garage a little while ago... grabbed up the .45 Combat Commander. The UPS guy with the wrong address again! Nice thing about a short arm... they can be hidden behind you in situations where you don't NEED to intimidate the fellar.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Go bang every time. Hit where I point. Disrupt central nervous system quickly.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:49 pm

STOP THE THREAT

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:45 pm

Not PC but DRT!
I have a G19 & a G21 on my nightstand w/ Surefire lights and spare mags for both. Next to that is a Mossberg 930 with a bandoleer of 00 at it's foot. What am I afraid of? Nothing! I live in a great neighborhood but had some gang banger/ dealers next door for @ three years. They've moved on. they thought I was "crazy"!

Walking around the yard w/ an AK over your shoulder will do that.

That Gal in the news with the .38 SPL was an inspiration! but I'm sure she was scared out of her wits and
a little more training and perhaps a larger cal.( or a 9mm auto) would have put that dirt bag down w/o the lawsuits that will follow.
(don't flame me, just being pragmatic).

I've begged my Mrs. to learn how to shoot just one gun and know where it is if something bad happens.
The biggest fight we ever had was when I asked her when a guy my size( 6'2" and 265#s) comes through the door and I'm not home, "What are you going to do?" She had no answer other than calling the PD or hitting the alarm. Gee, they're just minutes away, what are you going to do until they get here? Again no answer, she's all of 110#s if that.
Finally got her to agree to learn how to safely use one of my revolvers. I may upgrade that to a Mossberg 410, she seemed to like the one my Mom has.

jb

dave in maine · Post by **dave in maine** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:28 pm

sit in my seecamp for the rest of it's life. it's the last thing i want to have to use.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:39 pm

You do not want Blondie in that position at all.
I am at a loss as how to procede!

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:25 pm

I want it to immediately and decisively STOP whoever/whatever I had to shoot from doing whatever it was I had to shoot him/it for...

.Dirty-.Thirty · Post by **.Dirty-.Thirty** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:23 am

Penetrate and expand, the rest is up to the shooter.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:54 am

Ideal goal for an adequate self defense round:
To instantly convert a vertical deadly assailant into a horizontal stationary penitent.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:01 am

I want it to function as designed to incapacitate or end that threat which might demand it's use.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 am

You essentially want him to change his mind about being in your house.

I heard if you put a 158 grain slug in someone's medulla oblongata, it rings their bell.

Seriously, I think OS is looking for technical attributes.

- transfer of energy
- penetration
- expansion
- hydraulic shock
- blood loss
- wound channel

I think that you want a "shock and awe" hit more than worrying about blood loss or even penetration. Maybe that's why self-defense loads for .357 are 125 grain. Lots of velocity, all energy transfers to the subject, the bullet doesn't punch through. Bullet pancakes and fragments and stays inside him. He's disabled and wetting himself, unable to continue an attack.

Penetration is not such a great idea, you'd hate to shoot a perp with a 180 (still thinking .357) and have it go through him, two walls and your wife or kid. And it might not disable him if it passed right through without expanding - which it might if it's going slow enough.

In other words, think the opposite of a hunting round. You want disabling shock and pain, not a blood trail.

Another example of a self defense round is Glaser slug, made to fragment.

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:08 am

Everyone called the bad guy "he" and most assumptions were that the bad guy would be in your house. I'd like my bullet to make it across McDonalds from the dining area to the counter, penetrate the back of her wheelchair and enter and expand in her body to turn her lights out and then exit and bounce harmlessly off the counter. All this without blinding me or deafening me and while cycling my handgun so it is ready for another shot should her sister decide to become a threat.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:22 am

25 or 32 auto. If they are good enough for the inner cities, they are good enough for me.

On another note, 158 grain/38 cal or more. I want the bullet to stop the fight.------------Sixgun

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:11 am

I want my SD ammo to stop whatever my target is doing, right now! I have 2 SD loads (and no I don't want to hear about getting sued/prosecuted for using "killer ammo"). For my house gun, 2" .38 (and my carry gun), I use 150 gr. wadcutters over a stiff load of W231, and my 45 ACP uses 230 gr LRN over a bunch of Unique.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:41 am

I want to stop the threat. Now stop means different things to different people. For some, including the old M&S study, that means on the ground "physically" incapacitated. I'm not sure I would go that far. Some BG's will stop at the sight of a gun, some at the sound of the gun, some with fairly minor wounds regardless of caliber, some with major wounds regardless of caliber. I deem all of those as "mentally" incapacitated. Stop may mean fallin over or tossing hands in the air or running for home, it can be performed with any gun firing any cartridge including the lowly .22lr and .25acp. and is the result the vast majority of the time. Thank god people aren't nearly as mentally tough as most of the other critters that walk this earth. Don't get me wrong, there are times when a BG just ain't gonna quit unless he is physically unable to continue. For those I want a true manstopper. But to me stop doesn't mean DRT. It means anywhere from I give up to DRT and anything in between.

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:08 pm

Stop the threat whatever it may be.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:47 pm

I don't believe it's a very good idea to go by the lowest common denominator, i.e. a coward who just wants to rob you. Pulling a gun should suffice for that situation, anyway, and no tragic loss of life or limb ensues. It seems to me that the use of a small caliber (to stop an assailant in his tracks) would require that you make a 100% vital (mortal) shot, such as the bridge of the nose, which is difficult outside a stationary target range. James Bond and apparently less fictional British spies had a .32; but James Bond and his ilk didn't leave their targets in any condition where they could be interviewed by the police and jailed.

The trouble is with those who attack at even the sight of a gun. Many assailants now, at least on the West Coast, are high on meth or other drugs that dull their consciousness, remove their empathy, repress pain, and in effect make them impervious to simple intimidation tactics or bee sting hits.

If one really has to defend their life or that of others - thus justifying deadly force - then their bite had better equal their bark, or they face more grievous consequences. Thus the quoted "M&S" studies that talk about literally stopping the attacker in his/her tracks.

My reasoning - vertical to horizontal, and right now, is the requirement I make of my self-defense weapon system and loads. Extreme expanding medium caliber hollow points (e.g. .357 125 grain HP's, a proven stopper), or easier to manage rounds that are easier on the eardrums and eyes at night, my prime choice. One wants to see and hear what is going on after the first shot. Large caliber hollowpoints (.45 ACP HP's) or even large caliber slower solids with soft lead (.45 Colt) top my list. The snappy, loud but effective .40 S&W is a second best choice in my book.

One can bemoan that there is no "silver bullet" that always works; but the Federal HST 230 grainer in .45 ACP still is my utmost favorite for home and urban self-defense for all of the reasons above, and one or two more - like reliable penetration even through light furniture (cover) or heavy clothing if necessary, plus the quick follow-up shots of a semi-auto. Very few can be the Lone Ranger under the stress of true deadly attack.

Vertical to horizontal. But if laws or circumstance restrict the availability of decent armaments, remember that David slew Goliath with a pebble or two. Just remember that he prayed.

Treeman72 · Post by **Treeman72** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:57 pm

I do not have a pistol permit, so my home defense choices were fairly limited.
Ultimately purchased a Mossberg 500 pistol grip. The tube holds 5. First 2 are #4 shot, and final 3 are 00 buck.
If that doesn't ruin the bad guys day....God help me

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:57 pm

Kill the two legged varmint I am aiming at with a well placed shot and not blind me with mussel blast. Also I don't want the bullet to go through walls and hurt some unintended victim. RR7

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:20 pm

Scare the bad guy away. Let the Police handle the rest.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:29 pm

Basically I want a round that with a reasonably well placed shot(stop the threat)
I want a weapon and round that has evolved to match our ever changing enviroment we live in.

Want it(the weapon)very light/easily carried/fast follow up shots/and accurate.
I want both the handgun/long gun to be effective out to at least 75yds

With now being a new trend(bad guys using BP vests)I want the gun to penetrate the vest and stop the threat.
I know with a bullet not penetrating a vest you still have energy upset to the perp(but,I still feel in my mind----ain't cutting it)

With the tests I have seen(at our club)using a few vests the 10mm(6")handgun or the .40S&W(carbine)has did what needs doing.
WITH THE CORRECT AMMO---------------meaning UNDERWOOD HOT AMMO

Talking from many old timers that served in WW2 (some my own relatives)it sticks in my mind two things most always said regarding the .45ACP(at war)

1-------------you were lucky if you could hit the side of a barn with one
2-------------with the FMJ they would get shot-----and keep on coming(I know many have heard diiferent)just telling what sticks in my mind by many(directly coming from them)when they got knocked down(they would get back up unless head shot)
So although even if a .45ACP FMJ might penetrate what I want it to penetrate---(I want the perp down,not needing added rds)
Though even with the FMJ-----------ones we seen on a vest----------????????????????

Now----I am by no means any type expert on this stuff------I can only go by what I am told by people I know and trust and also events we have used the different calibers on shooting different things at different type conditions.

At this present time(subject to change if required)my two favorite SD weapons are as follows----------------

Glock 20(10mm)6" Lone Wolf barrel/22lb spring loaded with either the Underwood 135gr@1730fps or Underwood 180gr@1450fps

Kel-Tec Sub2000-----16" barrel .40S&W using the Underwood 135gr@1700fps (actually we were getting 1670-1730fps)so I use 1700fps as the rule

What was interesting was though the higher velocities in Gel blocks though creating massive wound channels did not go as deeply as say the slower 180gr 10mm ammo-----in the vests---------------------high velocity seemed to be a key element to it going threw
Once the velocity exceeded 1550fps in the 135gr and 1400fps in the 180gr things were noticeable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JghPfvf2WDc

Just my thoughts so only take it as such!

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:18 pm

Mescalero wrote:You do not want Blondie in that position at all.
I am at a loss as how to procede!

"we're in negotiations". She tolerates my obsession but has a burr under her saddle about guns due to her first husband's
blatant overspending on firearms and other "toys". I'm not like that, I buy my stuff with money I make outside of the
family budget. Side jobs and other wheeling and dealing. I've got one now from hurricane Sandy that's going to net me
enough to buy that Shiloh Sharps I've always wanted and then some.

She can handle my S&W Victory model (Model 10) fine but I'd feel better if she had the Mossberg 410 HS I got my Mom
or even the little Bantam model. Filled full of 00 HD or the Winchester PDX loads I'm sure She'd be fine.
Best part is she's rarely alone, stepson number one is almost always home. He is handicapped but is deadly with his .22 Savage. Kid number two has a Stevens 12 Ga. Pump and a Marlin 336 in .35 Rem. He can hit the 200 yd. Ram 9 out of ten times with open sights!

all that is backed up by an electronic alarm, one Rat Terrier, one Jack Russell, A black Lab and a Great Dane.

All that goes off and the Big Dog (Me) gets to play!

jb

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:16 pm

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:28 pm

tman wrote:Scare the bad guy away. Let the Police handle the rest.

Massad Ayoob would be proud of you...

I think the OP was intending to discuss the 'what if' scenario where terminal ballistics came in to play, however...

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:02 pm

To be clear - I think the performance standard should be to drop the intruder in one or two shots.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:09 am

Old Savage wrote:To be clear - I think the performance standard should be to drop the intruder in one or two shots.

well then I think .357 magnum is your axe...it is the leader in one-shot stops in police use. Even 44 mag had a lower rate of one shot stops.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:18 pm

IMHO the 357 Mag muzzle blast, wall penetration and flash would keep me from wanting it to be my first choice for HOME self defence. I want to be able to hear, see, and not be worried as much about innocent people in the house If I am in a shoot out with the intruder. Just my two cents, RR7

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:10 pm

They need to go off every time I pull the trigger and make big holes,
preferably two per shot.
I have always been in the heavy and slow school of thought when it
comes to stopping power.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:55 pm

If I can walk away unscathed and the other guy is on the ground/floor waiting for the first responders to show up, the caliber was adequate.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:14 am

It is interesting that this thread should appear as tonight's news covers an attempted murder/robbery of two pharmacy owners in my area by two gang members. They came in through a back door, and one of the two entered shooting and managed to hit an 80 plus year old lady co-owner in her leg. Her son fired his CCW licensed .45 ACP pistol, hitting the thug, who fell to the floor.* He then managed to crawl out of the store. He made it a few blocks away where he was found, and expired in the hospital - less than 1/4 mile away.
http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?secti ... id=8948286

* A good application of vertical to horizontal

Had the storeowner not used an authoritative caliber, the thug would likely not have stopped his advance and then expired two blocks away; instead (as the Police Chief concurred), the robbers had intended to kill both pharmacy owners. The dead man had previously robbed an elderly lady in Fresno in an armed home invasion robbery, although he had left her alive.

What is not in the above link: The second person, also a gang member, has just been arrested by City of Madera Police officers.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:30 am

rangerider7 wrote:IMHO the 357 Mag muzzle blast, wall penetration and flash would keep me from wanting it to be my first choice for HOME self defence. I want to be able to hear, see, and not be worried as much about innocent people in the house If I am in a shoot out with the intruder. Just my two cents, RR7

I'm with you there, just noting the stats. I just bought a .357 handgun but it will not have full power loads. Follow up shots and control are important, too. I will work up a nice load and stick with that.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:04 am

ventilate.....
and when the wind blows...
said criminal,....... will whistle....

rogn · Post by **rogn** » Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:40 am

Preferably One hole in , one hole out, proper application and no need for second application.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:33 am

FINALLY, a short article in the NRA's "American Rifleman" magazine, April 2013; "The Armed Citizen":

Bryan Lee, owner of the Almond Avenue Pharmacy, had no choice but to fire his .45-cal. pistol when a 31-year-old male entered his store firing a similar model. The gunman entered the store and immediately fired multiple rounds striking Lee’s mother, Sophie Lee, in the leg. Bryan Lee returned fire, causing the man to flee. He collapsed a block away and later died at a local hospital. Lee was unharmed and his mother was expected to make a quick recovery. Lee said, “We just did what we had to do to survive.” (The Fresno Bee, Madera, CA, 1/11/13)

Man, did they leave out a lot - the guy was wanted for other home invasions; he was a verified gang member; he had a driver; and the gang member driver was arrested - all per the local news coverage. And on the human interest side - his mother is 90 years old; and he is an NRA certified marksman and veteran. Good stuff that they completely missed!

That means, under California law, the other guy's career is ended, too. Since he was involved, he is guilty of murder because he committed a felony in which somebody died as a result of the crime. And I think a third person was identified - there was a driver, a partner who came in behind the shooter, and the deceased.

I guess that is a lesson for me to submit the news of this type so that the gun control issue can be addressed with more positive rebuttals. If the store owner had not been armed, two innocent people would be dead and at least two hardened criminals would have been emboldened to continue their reign of robbery and cold-blooded murder.

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:35 pm

2ndovc wrote:Not PC but DRT!
I have a G19 & a G21 on my nightstand w/ Surefire lights and spare mags for both. Next to that is a Mossberg 930 with a bandoleer of 00 at it's foot. What am I afraid of? Nothing! I live in a great neighborhood but had some gang banger/ dealers next door for @ three years. They've moved on. they thought I was "crazy"! Walking around the yard w/ an AK over your shoulder will do that.

That Gal in the news with the .38 SPL was an inspiration! but I'm sure she was scared out of her wits and
a little more training and perhaps a larger cal.( or a 9mm auto) would have put that dirt bag down w/o the lawsuits that will follow.
(don't flame me, just being pragmatic).

I've begged my Mrs. to learn how to shoot just one gun and know where it is if something bad happens.
The biggest fight we ever had was when I asked her when a guy my size( 6'2" and 265#s) comes through the door and I'm not home, "What are you going to do?" She had no answer other than calling the PD or hitting the alarm. Gee, they're just minutes away, what are you going to do until they get here? Again no answer, she's all of 110#s if that.
Finally got her to agree to learn how to safely use one of my revolvers. I may upgrade that to a Mossberg 410, she seemed to like the one my Mom has.

jb

+1 on the .410, with 3" #4shot, PDX1, 4Buck or 000Buck.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:36 pm

Tycer wrote:Go bang every time. Hit where I point. Disrupt central nervous system quickly.

This. Nothing more.

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:43 pm

[quote="86er"]Everyone called the bad guy "he" and most assumptions were that the bad guy would be in your house. I'd like my bullet to make it across McDonalds from the dining area to the counter, penetrate the back of her wheelchair and enter and expand in her body to turn her lights out and then exit and bounce harmlessly off the counter. All this without blinding me or deafening me and while cycling my handgun so it is ready for another shot should her sister decide to become a threat.[/quote]

86er, I am in awe.

Bob in Friday Harbor

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:38 am

What I DON'T want it to do is go through my intended victim only to keep on cruising until it hurts or kills someone else! Some of the weapons/ammo I hear of people using for "home defense" leaves me pretty glad I (hopefully) don't live next to them.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:29 am

olyinaz wrote:What I DON'T want it to do is go through my intended victim only to keep on cruising until it hurts or kills someone else! Some of the weapons/ammo I hear of people using for "home defense" leaves me pretty glad I (hopefully) don't live next to them.

I agree, hopefully it will enter the assailant through the solar plexus, expand, puncture the aorta and lodge in the spine, without a whole lot of flash and bang.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:23 am

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:51 am

COSteve wrote:Honestly, I'd like it to reside safely in my firearm, ready for use but never actually used. The responsibility of taking a life changes you and not for the better . . . . .

Broad brush. Depends on the circumstances.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:02 pm

The old 38 Special has put a lot of bad guys under the ground. Modern +P rounds are effective.

TR