"What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

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AJMD429
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"What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by AJMD429 »

Over the years I've bought and sold and traded and borrowed many AR-15 variants, ranging from 16" to 26" barrel lengths, and from light to .960" in diameter. Now that I'm starting to 'thin the herd' and recoup some of my investment, I find I'm settling down to the idea of really focusing on just ONE 'variant' that can in fact cover a variety of needs.

I'm no "match shooter", but I find I can get as good a groups with my 20" bull-barrel as my 24" (& 26" :shock: ) ones I've had over the years, and am even leaning towards a 16" heavy that I just bought, since it isn't excessively long when a suppressor is attached, and seems to be as accurate as I can shoot anyway.

So now, I find myself wondering if there are any "AR" formats worth looking at that could do anything a good 16" on a scoped flattop with a good trigger can't do just as well...

I've been getting offers on my "AR" stuff, and figure now is the time to turn it into cash....

Is there any REAL advantage to the longer barrels...? Anyone who has found the 'light-weight' barrels all that much better than the heavy/bull barrels, when it comes to real-world totin' & shootin'...???
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by RIHMFIRE »

i would stick with the short barrel and get an other upper/barrel or 2
as a spare(s) and sell the rest....
short barrel is the best choice for...."taking care of business"
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by jeepnik »

While the short barrel would be best for work indoors, for most uses we'd find for an AR a longer barrel has more advantages. Why give up even a couple hundred fps if you don't have too. And, if you do end up using iron sights, the longer the sight radius the better.

Now myself being a southpaw there aren't alot of options. Stag is one of the few making lefty AR's, and they are making them in all the versions they make the "normal" AR's. One interesting thing is that you can get a flat top with a carrying handle that attaches via the picatinny rail. I know the handle isn't in favor these days, but having it as an option isn't a bad thing. Whatever you do, make sure you install a good set of back up sights, there are plenty out there.

So for my two cents, go with the longer barrel, flat top and buy the accessories that fit your need. However, one of those should be .22lr conversion. Either a completely dedicated upper, or as I did a kit that includes a .22 lr bolt and magazines.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by Lastmohecken »

Well, right now I have 4 AR's:
Bushmaster M4 type barrel with Surefire Flashlight and 2.5 x 8 Leupold scope and flip up backup iron
Bushmaster 16 inch Dissipator with 2 x 7 Redfield and back up irons
Rock River Operator, stock with iron sights, free float barrel
Colt LE6720 which has the pencil barrel

I am going to a local gunshow tomorrow and I am tempted to take one or two to sell, but they all serve a slightly different need but of of course a lot of overlapping in use.

But frankly I can't decide what I am willing to part with, but the one that I would probably keep for sure would be the Colt with the pencil barrel because it is so light, and handles so well, and still shoots as well as the others, as best I can tell, since I only have iron sights on it at this time, I couldn't quite compare to the scoped guns. The heavy AR's are not much fun to pack, and unless one was planning on shooting long strings, give me a pencil barrel any day, if I need to carry it very far at all.

My next favorite just might be the Dissipator for actual packing and hunting, and was my favorite until I got the Colt.
The Rock River is a great shooting gun, but also the heaviest and also has plenty of mounting points to add all of the gismos one could dream of which of course would make it even heavier, and the M4 is my night gun.

Bottom line though, is range guns can be as heavy and long as you want, but IMHO will be the ones left at home when it comes time to cross a couple of hills and ravines to call in a coyote or two. A good trigger is much more important on an AR then a long heavy barrel for making shots in the field. I guess I could see the benefit of a long varmint barrel for something like prairie dog shooting.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by MrMurphy »

I've shot most of what's out there and at one point, was even getting paid to do so. :)


For fighting-type use 'shorter is better' if you have the right kind of ammo for a lot of stuff.

If you know you're primarily going to be looking at long wide open spaces and want the ballistic advantages, an 18" is just about right. Still shorter than the original M16, just a bit, balances well, carries well.

No need for a heavy barrel. Unless you're laying down serious suppressive fire most ARs honestly don't heat up a massive amount. If you're looking at a precision gun, even less an issue.

Look at a LaRue PredatAR, or an equivalent 18" midweight from Noveske or BCM. Free floated lightweight rail, throw some folding irons and a good scope and mount on there and you can easily hit at 500m with a halfway decent shooter. I make no claims to being an awesome shot and "I" can do that on a man sized target regularly. With a good trigger (I recommend a Geissele SSA or DM-R) a midweight barrel and good optics (Leupold VX-III or equivalent, or better, not cheap stuff) in a good mount even in 5.56mm you can make hits at ranges people generally wouldn't believe.

No reason to go beyond a 20" barrel at all, especially depending on twist (1 in 7 or 1 in 8 being my choice) and unless you like dumping 400 rounds downrange in five minutes, realistically, no need for a bull barrel. Short, stiff barrels can be highly accurate. Seen a 12" (yes, you read that right) LaRue Stealth that in the hands of the SWAT officer who carried it pretty regularly shot sub-minute out to around 200+m.

I like 16's myself, but I mostly don't do long range work. The 18's got a bit more oomph ballistically, just enough.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by jdad »

I only have one now. I sent my rifle back to Noveske and had them turn it into an SPR. 18"s/s polygonal rifled barrel and NSR rail. It suits all my needs.


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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by Chris83716 »

SELL a AR?? Doc you must be sick. The mere thought of selling a gun let alone an AR makes my guts hurt. :) I started out with a Bushmaster V match 20" prior to Y2K and then got a national match upper after I started shooting Highpower. Then another lower and and a 16" upper........Now I have 4 complete guns and they will be in the safe with the Marlin 39 when I die.

Besides "think of the children" :) they might really like to have an AR in a few years if they become unobtanium for us peasants.

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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by tman »

Current battle rifle is the M4 with a 16" barrell. Works for the Military :D
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by jeepnik »

tman wrote:Current battle rifle is the M4 with a 16" barrell. Works for the Military :D
In Iraq, the kids thought the M4 was great, but in places like Falluhah that was mostly street to street the youngest thought it was ideal. The eldest's third tour was to Afghanistan. He longed for a bit more barrel. When the distances opened up, the M4 was found lacking. And the longer barrel would have had no real penalty for the type of work he did there. Of note, some M14's showed up while he was there, and being a sniper grad, he latched onto one. Lower volume of fire, but it reached out and touched someone much better.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by tman »

jeepnik wrote:
tman wrote:Current battle rifle is the M4 with a 16" barrell. Works for the Military :D
In Iraq, the kids thought the M4 was great, but in places like Falluhah that was mostly street to street the youngest thought it was ideal. The eldest's third tour was to Afghanistan. He longed for a bit more barrel. When the distances opened up, the M4 was found lacking. And the longer barrel would have had no real penalty for the type of work he did there. Of note, some M14's showed up while he was there, and being a sniper grad, he latched onto one. Lower volume of fire, but it reached out and touched someone much better.
Your specialising. Of course an m14, Barret 50, or a .338 Lapuda makes a better long range gun. A 24"barreled m4 has more reach than a 16" one. In house to house fitting, I want an 11" barrell. We are looking for a comprimise between 2 extremes and everthing in between. That's how the Military choose the M4 variant.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by AJMD429 »

tman wrote:We are looking for a comprimise between 2 extremes and everthing in between.
All I want is a gun that is light, easy-to-carry, and low in recoil, yet can make followup shots rapidly, keeping to 6-8" groups at 1,000 yards as long as there is low-to-moderate wind conditions, and with enough power to knock out a cape buffalo out to at least 750 yards with one well-placed shot. No big deal, right...?
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by tman »

Get a model 94 30WCF. :P
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by Hobie »

After carrying one in and out of vehicles of all types, I wanted light and short. I can't see far enough, well enough to take advantage of whatever range advantage a 4" longer barrel is going to give me. What is that in reality, 100-150 fps? I don't have to depend on FMJ/ball to do the work. I have 64 gr. WW PowerPoints. That's my take on it.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by guido4198 »

In Our Real World, Hobie pretty much hit it on the head. The guys I know who had to use the short bbl M4 found the Round to be more of the issue than the rifle. One of my Ranger-Buds managed to scrounge an M14 for himself. It worked REAL well for a while until his Company Commander found out about it and made him go back to the M4 with Ball ammo. Like Hobie...'round my place...I'm not a signatory to nuthin. I'm using all the JSP I want when things get ugly.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by MrMurphy »

The Mk 262 and SOST loads in use by the Army and USMC are the reason why they're generally happy.

Both perform better through barriers than M855, perform better on target since they're OTM loads, and from those who've used them on bad guys basically, out to 200m they perform about as well a 7.62 ball load does, and past that, they still hit harder with a center mass hit than M855 does, while doing so through light cover.

If the guy's in a mud hut, even a .50 will have some issues, that's when you use high explosives.....
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by handirifle »

jeepnik wrote:
tman wrote:Current battle rifle is the M4 with a 16" barrell. Works for the Military :D
In Iraq, the kids thought the M4 was great, but in places like Falluhah that was mostly street to street the youngest thought it was ideal. The eldest's third tour was to Afghanistan. He longed for a bit more barrel. When the distances opened up, the M4 was found lacking. And the longer barrel would have had no real penalty for the type of work he did there. Of note, some M14's showed up while he was there, and being a sniper grad, he latched onto one. Lower volume of fire, but it reached out and touched someone much better.

I know you meant nothing by it, but I will say, as my mother did for my brother and other Viet Nam soldiers, If they can fight and die for us, they're not kids.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by handirifle »

guido4198 wrote:In Our Real World, Hobie pretty much hit it on the head. The guys I know who had to use the short bbl M4 found the Round to be more of the issue than the rifle. One of my Ranger-Buds managed to scrounge an M14 for himself. It worked REAL well for a while until his Company Commander found out about it and made him go back to the M4 with Ball ammo. Like Hobie...'round my place...I'm not a signatory to nuthin. I'm using all the JSP I want when things get ugly.

Yea, not even cops have to use the stuff our soldier have to use. I thought the purpose of war was to win, not injure as many as possible. As Gen. Patton said, "there's no honor in dying for your country, the honor comes in making the other poor ba****d die for HIS country". Use bullets that work.

That said, I have not liked AR's since '72 when my Uncle (Sam) made me use one. To each their own.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by Sixgun »

Doc,
This should serve your purposes..12" barrel. I don't know how accurate it is because its hard to be still and take your time with the fun factor in your face. (my buddies)
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My 16" Colt LE6940 (I've said this 3 million times) will break clay birds out to 500 meters (off the bench) with 69 gr Sierra Match Kings. The stock folds up in to a nice carrying package.

My son has the identical one. Its one serial number apart. His departed wife is holding it. He is holding a Rock River of some sort.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by olyinaz »

I prefer standard length ARs in 20" to the shorties. Balance and aesthetics - nothing more. But I will say that an 18" barrel is a nice compromise. If it's to be light and fast to tote, then go with a 14.5" and have the flash supressor permanently installed to make it legal.

Now, preferably get it in something other than .223! If it's to be a shorty get it in 6.8 SPC. If you can deal with the horror of an actual rifle ( :shock: ), get it in the outstanding 6.5mm Grendel.

I don't like the heavy or "bull" barrel ARs because they get too heavy. I don't mind a rifle at all, but I've picked up carbine bulls that weigh more than most rifles to the point of feeling like a bowling ball. It's nuts.

If you're feeling really spunky have a custom maker build you an AR in .24 or .25 WSSM. :D

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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by jeepnik »

handirifle wrote:
jeepnik wrote:
tman wrote:Current battle rifle is the M4 with a 16" barrell. Works for the Military :D
In Iraq, the kids thought the M4 was great, but in places like Falluhah that was mostly street to street the youngest thought it was ideal. The eldest's third tour was to Afghanistan. He longed for a bit more barrel. When the distances opened up, the M4 was found lacking. And the longer barrel would have had no real penalty for the type of work he did there. Of note, some M14's showed up while he was there, and being a sniper grad, he latched onto one. Lower volume of fire, but it reached out and touched someone much better.

I know you meant nothing by it, but I will say, as my mother did for my brother and other Viet Nam soldiers, If they can fight and die for us, they're not kids.
You're right of course. But I have to admit I adopted the description my boys used for their fellow Marines. I suspect they adopted it form more senior non coms. I'll have to ask about that. But now that I think about it when I said "the kids" I meant "my kids", and I still call them kid. But that's only cuz I love the little brats. :mrgreen:
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by COSteve »

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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by olyinaz »

Steve (or anyone else), is there a problem with cutting a chrome lined bore? It's always made me squeamish to think about cutting the chrome plating as well as the bore while crowning? How does one not damage the integrity of the plating right at the edge of the bore which then leads to flaking or uneven muzzle wear?

Thread drift I suppose...but since I also recommended a 14.5" carbine I guess I should know this!

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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by COSteve »

olyinaz wrote:Steve (or anyone else), is there a problem with cutting a chrome lined bore? It's always made me squeamish to think about cutting the chrome plating as well as the bore while crowning? How does one not damage the integrity of the plating right at the edge of the bore which then leads to flaking or uneven muzzle wear?

Thread drift I suppose...but since I also recommended a 14.5" carbine I guess I should know this!

Oly
I asked Steve of ADCO that question before I sent him my upper and he told me that unlike chrome plating a bumper with layers of copper, nickle, and then chrome to give it that deep, polished luster, chrome plating a barrel is just the deposition of a simple layer of hard chrome to smooth out the surface and give it a much harder bearing surface. Because its a single deposition, it can be machined without flaking. Is that the complete truth? I don't know but I can tell you that after over 8K rds through my middy, it's still really accurate.
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Re: "What if ONE gun" and "AR .223 Variants" ... ???

Post by olyinaz »

COSteve wrote:
olyinaz wrote:Steve (or anyone else), is there a problem with cutting a chrome lined bore? It's always made me squeamish to think about cutting the chrome plating as well as the bore while crowning? How does one not damage the integrity of the plating right at the edge of the bore which then leads to flaking or uneven muzzle wear?

Thread drift I suppose...but since I also recommended a 14.5" carbine I guess I should know this!

Oly
I asked Steve of ADCO that question before I sent him my upper and he told me that unlike chrome plating a bumper with layers of copper, nickle, and then chrome to give it that deep, polished luster, chrome plating a barrel is just the deposition of a simple layer of hard chrome to smooth out the surface and give it a much harder bearing surface. Because its a single deposition, it can be machined without flaking. Is that the complete truth? I don't know but I can tell you that after over 8K rds through my middy, it's still really accurate.
Thanks!!

Oly
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