Please don't Blast too hard

[Barcelona Rick]

All of us that frequent the "gun" forums casually discuss the use of deadly force....we all are pretty united in the protection of family....I was just wondering.....have you really thought about the aftermath of killing someone ?? Not only your own mental state but the impact on someone after the loss of a loved one. How many of us have actually experienced the taking of human life or felt the terror of being someone's target.....pretty easy to arm chair pull that trigger.....not so easy to live with the aftermath.....

rick

[Streetstar]

All of us that frequent the "gun" forums casually discuss the use of deadly force....we all are pretty united in the protection of family....I was just wondering.....have you really thought about the aftermath of killing someone ?? Not only your own mental state but the impact on someone after the loss of a loved one. How many of us have actually experienced the taking of human life or felt the terror of being someone's target.....pretty easy to arm chair pull that trigger.....not so easy to live with the aftermath.....

rick

I have spent time in "hostile territory" while in the service of our country -- so with some occupations in the armed services, it comes with the territory

OTOH --- my wife -- she is a sweetheart and puts up with my love of firearms , to the extent that i have firearms in master closets, nightstands, behind the bedroom door (biggest threat is coyotes messing with my dogs at my place-- not really a prob with 2 leg predators ....yet)
But she will not pull a trigger and will not ever go to the range with me to even learn how to shoot a 10/22 ---
----- when she was in her early 20's, she worked at a convenience store and some a--hole stuck a gun in her face . She has had a bit of a phobia ever since

[Grizz]

great question Rick.

if I have to use force to protect my wife or kids or other family I'm bonded to I expect I will be able to. I pray I never have to find out. But Christ told his disciples to sell some clothes and buy swords for a reason.

If it's just me, I might not, because when I'm alone my flight instinct is triggered. I might freeze up.

the spiritual dimension is the interesting one. if I kill someone his opportunity to repent and believe is extinguished. I routinely pray that I never have to make that decision. OTOH, God is the judge of the outcome and no one will go to hell accidentally or unjustly.

I'd prefer to let someone with that calling deal out those measures. But the society is already in major breakdown mode with huge pools of violence all around us. It cannot be held at bay by a Godless pagan culture.

This article speaks to the topic:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/ ... _hear.html

Best

[Streetstar]

the spiritual dimension is the interesting one. if I kill someone his opportunity to repent and believe is extinguished.
Best

With my Army buddies, this is usually late night conversation after a few drinks -- but most of us have thought to ourselves that the only thing really wrong with the person on the other side of the rifle sights may be that they were just born in the wrong country and under a different belief system ----

You sort through peoples personal stuff looking for intel of any kind in the aftermath and you see they keep pictures of their family and kids with them too. The opposition also has plenty of proud family men who believe they are doing what is right for their country ---

You cant really afford the time to think about this stuff when you are young, but it occasionally crosses my mind now when i am with my old "brothers" and we are reminiscing

---

[FWiedner]

All of us that frequent the "gun" forums casually discuss the use of deadly force....we all are pretty united in the protection of family....I was just wondering.....have you really thought about the aftermath of killing someone ?? Not only your own mental state but the impact on someone after the loss of a loved one. How many of us have actually experienced the taking of human life or felt the terror of being someone's target.....pretty easy to arm chair pull that trigger.....not so easy to live with the aftermath.....

rick

It probably changes from person to person. People have different sensibilities about such things.

In my experience, you don't feel terror when you're someone's target, you think about how to get the hell out of the way or how to gain advantage.

Terror and remorse probably kick in after the adrenaline stops pumping and is likely compounded by stress inflicted by others afterward.

I've not met anyone who felt remorse for defending their life, and I've always felt that concern for most survivors was forced and just being PC.


JMO

[MrMurphy]

Been on the point of squeezing the trigger twice as a civilian, and a few hundred or more times while on active duty. Never had to fire.

The idea didn't bother me. You do what you have to do.

[guido4198]

If it helps...think about it like this: should you ever have to resort to the use of deadly force in a justifiable situation....it is going to be because another individual...(aka: the "perp") CHOSE to put you in that position. It was THEIR CHOICE to do that TO you. You didn't stick a gun in your belt and "go hunting" for someone to shoot.

[Tycer]

Very important question sir. Yes, I have, and do think about it. For me, I look at it like Paco says - we as humans are predators - I have found that part of me, named it, embraced it and hopefully have it always ready to protect myself and my loved ones.

I have found that Kathy Jackson has great articles on mindset on her website www.corneredcat.com

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/mind ... ou-really/

[Pitchy]

Everything on this earth has been killing each other since Adam, survival is the game.
I`ll do what i have to do to protect me and mine and thank God for keeping my aim straight.

[KirkD]

Thinking through the aftermath is an important exercise that really helps sober a fellow up and clarify the circumstances under which the killing of another person is required. There is a difference between 'required' and 'justified'. An example of 'required' would be to stop the imminent killing or grievous bodily harm to yourself or another innocent person. The aftermath of a 'required' killing is easier to deal with than the aftermath of a 'justified but not required' or an 'almost required' killing. An accidental or 'neither justified nor required' killing would be very difficult to deal with. Anyone who is prepared to use lethal force of any type against another person really does need to rehearse the possible circumstances in view of the aftermath and be crystal clear as to when he/she will deal death and when he/she will not. Trying to figure things out in the heat of the moment is not the greatest way to make a good decision.

[pwl44m]

I for one can't tell You what I would do in any given situation and I'm sure there are others in the same boat. I have watched some of these self defense programs that teach You what to do when an intruder comes into Your Home, come on ! are We going to stop and think "now what was I supposed to do" ? The one giving the video might be able to maintain composure and if I practiced it every day and got it down pat I might be able to. But until "if" and "when" the time comes (God forbid that it should) I can't say. We can all sit here in front of Our Computers and say We would blow the Sucker away and I would hope that We would have the mindset to sort things out first. ll in All it is going to be case by case I'm thinkin.
Perry

[bdhold]

I hope if the need for deadly force arises, you will know what to do, rather than debate what to do.

[shooter]

I never want to have to pull the trigger on someone, ever. That being said, If it is in defense of mine or my family's life I will not hesitate to do so. I'm not the one that needs to think about the aftermath. The person making the decision to commit violence against me needs to think about the aftermath. It's none of my concern, and their actions are what would force my hand, not the other way around. I will do what needs to be done to go home and sleep beside my wife every night.

[El Chivo]

I never want to have to pull the trigger on someone, ever. That being said, If it is in defense of mine or my family's life I will not hesitate to do so. I'm not the one that needs to think about the aftermath. The person making the decision to commit violence against me needs to think about the aftermath. It's none of my concern, and their actions are what would force my hand, not the other way around. I will do what needs to be done to go home and sleep beside my wife every night.

+1

The problem is you don't know the intent of the other person. It might be a kid on a dare, it might be a homeless person looking for food, it might be Robert Downey Jr. looking for a place to sleep, OR it might be a sicko looking to kill you, rape your wife, and set your kids on fire.

I agree that "the death penalty" for theft is extreme, but the problem is you can't know their intent at the time.

[Buck Elliott]

Each of us has to draw his own line in the sand, and be prepared to stand behind our decision.. We should already have a plan of action in mind, for any number of possible scenarios..
The time to think about such things is NOW (if not beforehand), not when an emergency arises.. You wouldn't want your friends and loved ones to have to mourn your demise, if there were something - anything - you could have done to prevent it..

[rimrock]

Mi mother in law in law taught me that EVERYONE has at least some good in them. Mostly, I've dcided a BG can have my stuff-- it's well worn and insured. Don't mess with with a human I can come to the aid of, and don't mistreat my animals if they're on my place.

[Grizz]

OK Rimrock... suppose the bg says he's going to tie you and everyone else up while he ransacks your house.

then what? he says he just wants your stuff. and it's insured.

nice guy. right? just needs some quick cash.

then what?

Grizz

[Booger Bill]

Remember the onion field? They gave up their revolvers and one was killed and the other had a ruined life. I never shot anyone although I had to pull my gun several times. If I ever shoot someone it`s going to be to save my life. To me that should be a very simple decision. Why should anyone feel guilty about saveing their own or anothers life? With me its like, whats the alternitive?

[Buck Elliott]

I know a man who had a recurring nightmare, off and on, for years afterward..

The scene was always the same, but in the dream, he could not get the hammers cocked on his shotgun.. he would wake up in a cold sweat, heart pounding in his ears.. When he finally was able to share the tale with a wise and understanding friend, the nightmare went away..

[Hobie]

I think that one has to have a plan as to what to do that works with your belief system. I know that I have genuine remorse for every wrong thing I've done, even lying to my parents when I was very young so I know that doing the wrong thing would be not so good for me. I have known all sorts of people and I came to some conclusions as to what to do when, but, even as an infantryman for many years, I've never been in combat. I've had 4 instances where I've had to use those "rules of engagement" out of uniform and have never had to harm anyone. I feel very fortunate in that, however, I'm prepared for the worst case eventuality.

There is a lot of Walter Mittyism on the net. I think a certain amount of it is necessary for the younger people in order to work out what they will really do. Then again, one can not always predict what will happen afterwards. One has to be prepared to accept the consequences of ones actions (or INACTION) no matter what it might be. There's one fellow I think we all know who will be fighting for his life and perhaps didn't expect the reaction he got.

Zimmerman.JPG

Zimmerman_George_back_of_head.jpg

[Blaine]

I've brandished twice, and I'm sure that saved me from an azz whoopin' or worse. Once was in the woods with a bunch of perhaps-illegal brush pickers, and once in a parking lot (in my rig waiting on hunting buddies) @ 3am when 2 denizens of the night walked up to either side of my rig. In both cases, it was like turning the lights on and watching the roaches scatter. Didn't point it at anyone, just pulled it out and let them see it. Cowards don't like to get hurt.

[L_Kilkenny]

Sittin here, never havin pulled a gun let alone a trigger on another person, I say without hesitation that it would have zero issues doing so. Sounds good doesn't it? But honestly I don't think I would have an issue doing so. But having the balls to do it right in the face of danger is a completely different matter. I have a lot of respect for anyone who has had to expose even the smallest part of himself/herself while taking fire. Me? My fear is I'd freeze up solid.

The after affects are another unknown for me. I sometimes think all the emotional BS folk talk about is exactly that, BS. Psycho babble that sounds good to a shrink, judge and/or jury but is mostly bunk. But........... I clearly have no idea. Some folk sleep well afterwards, others need mucho help.

Here's to hoping I never have to find out and praying for anyone who does.

[Streetstar]

The after affects are another unknown for me. I sometimes think all the emotional BS folk talk about is exactly that, BS. Psycho babble that sounds good to a shrink, judge and/or jury but is mostly bunk. But........... I clearly have no idea. Some folk sleep well afterwards, others need mucho help.

Here's to hoping I never have to find out and praying for anyone who does.

The "after-effects" is something the military simply diagnoses as PTSD and gives our servicemen a bone to try to make it go away--------------

----------- truth is, it is rare in the history of our country to have a lot of 40 - 45 yo men who have done 4-8 tours, but its an issue now ----guys my age came in at the desert storm erA, and have now been in 20 years, and the world's a complicated place ----

i have a good friend who i served in Desert Storm/Shield, then Somalia with (that was enough for me) --- then the guy went to Bosnia 2 years , then alternated Iraq and Afghanistan a couple years each, --- and his resume' is not unique now.
---- he is f---ed out of his mind now and is a shadow of his former self/ -- we cannot have a drink at a neighborhood pub without him scaring the patrons with his tales --- he is declared 80% PTSD from his exposure and , although i used to have doubts about this mess --- my personal experience with it in dealing with him and his family has been very real .

He got out an E-8 and he is almost a pauper now -- with his ramblings and miscellaneous family problems.. -- only 41 years old, too

[rimrock]

OK Rimrock... suppose the bg says he's going to tie you and everyone else up while he ransacks your house.

then what? he says he just wants your stuff. and it's insured.

nice guy. right? just needs some quick cash.

then what?

Grizz

If BG points some threatening object at a human on my property, and I'm able to get to any one of my bang sticks on my property then game on--may best man win. A human life is worth more than a couch or laptop as long as no human or animal on my property is messed with when the stuff is stolen. Now if BG comes at me with a vehicle or otherwise threatens me on my place after getting my stuff otta my house, and I can get to one of several bang sticks --same response. It's always a judgement call with possible severe financial consequences. Is this shot worth the price of an attorney? My approach is summed up by the title of one of Mas Ayoob's books--I'll use deadly force in the gravest extreme only. I hope I can be rational if the time ever comes. I hope to be judged not guilty by 12 instead of burried by 6 if the time ever comes. Despite the laws on your side, any jury can still inflict great personal harm on you. Even if you successfully appeal a jury verdict, your financial future might be much worse. Is it worth the cost? Only you can decide this issue for you.

[Blaine]

The after affects are another unknown for me. I sometimes think all the emotional BS folk talk about is exactly that, BS. Psycho babble that sounds good to a shrink, judge and/or jury but is mostly bunk. But........... I clearly have no idea. Some folk sleep well afterwards, others need mucho help.

Here's to hoping I never have to find out and praying for anyone who does.

The "after-effects" is something the military simply diagnoses as PTSD and gives our servicemen a bone to try to make it go away--------------

----------- truth is, it is rare in the history of our country to have a lot of 40 - 45 yo men who have done 4-8 tours, but its an issue now ----guys my age came in at the desert storm erA, and have now been in 20 years, and the world's a complicated place ----

i have a good friend who i served in Desert Storm/Shield, then Somalia with (that was enough for me) --- then the guy went to Bosnia 2 years , then alternated Iraq and Afghanistan a couple years each, --- and his resume' is not unique now.
---- he is f---ed out of his mind now and is a shadow of his former self/ -- we cannot have a drink at a neighborhood pub without him scaring the patrons with his tales --- he is declared 80% PTSD from his exposure and , although i used to have doubts about this mess --- my personal experience with it in dealing with him and his family has been very real .

He got out an E-8 and he is almost a pauper now -- with his ramblings and miscellaneous family problems.. -- only 41 years old, too

I had an uneventful 20 year military career, and have dreams about it every night....strange ones, but, not nightmares. Can't find equipment, missed a movement and trying to catch up...I can't imagine what they would be like if one lived in constant horror.

[COSteve]

Having survived combat, I can tell you it will change you forever and not in anything resembling a good way. Things happen so fast and then again in slow motion. Images are formed that will stay with you forever. I'm not the person who went over there and it took decades to learn to come to terms with the experience. Could I do it again? Unfortunately, yes and I'm sad to say quite easily. One hardens to it after the first time.

As I said, I'm not the same person I was before.

[Blaine]

Having survived combat, I can tell you it will change you forever and not in anything resembling a good way. Things happen so fast and then again in slow motion. Images are formed that will stay with you forever. I'm not the person who went over there and it took decades to learn to come to terms with the experience. Could I do it again? Unfortunately, yes and I'm sad to say quite easily. One hardens to it after the first time.

As I said, I'm not the same person I was before.

A sincere Thank You For Your Service

[FWiedner]

I was deployed to a couple of minor actions in Central America in the 80's, nothing longer than a month or two. No "combat", but we did participate in policing actions where liberal gunfire was exchanged. No notable long term repercussions.

Just mentioning it pertaining to the discussion at hand, no other reason.

My dad is in his late 70's and still has nightmares from his time in Korea, but he was on the line when he was 17.

I would not be so bold as to compare my personal experience to those of my father or to anyone who has experienced a long term exposure to combat, but as I suggested earlier, I really do think the long term psyhological impact just varies from person to person, and I won't pretend to know what the mitigating factors are to coming home "normal" or otherwise.

[Griff]

Having survived combat, I can tell you it will change you forever and not in anything resembling a good way. Things happen so fast and then again in slow motion. Images are formed that will stay with you forever. I'm not the person who went over there and it took decades to learn to come to terms with the experience. Could I do it again? Unfortunately, yes and I'm sad to say quite easily. One hardens to it after the first time.
As I said, I'm not the same person I was before.

A sincere Thank You For Your Service

+1.
Steve hit it on the head. I'm not the same guy who went the first time... got one extra hole that time. 2nd time, got another extra. 3rd trip was relatively uneventful. I wouldn't WANT to do that again. But, if asked, the answer's still yes. And, after 8 years not carrying a badge & gun... I'm quite happily removed from that daily stress.

When I first signed up as a Deputy, I was asked "...could you take a human life?" I answered as truthfully as I know how... "...although I think I have, I've not been faced with a situation where it was a one-on-one situation. So the answer is, I don't know."

When asked as I started a new job by the psychologist, (law enforcement required a visit), if I thought I was mentally stable enough to handle the job... I answered truthfully... "any cop with 5 or 6 years of experience is mentally unbalanced." She said, "you have a good grasp on reality..." some other longer, multi-syllable psycho-babble and passed me. (Actually, there was some other dialog, but much too long and involved for this thread).

Over the next 12 years I still didn't shoot anyone. Maybe I was wrong.

...the long term psyhological impact just varies from person to person, and I won't pretend to know what the mitigating factors are to coming home "normal" or otherwise.

+1, I have had friends that had trouble coping. Others, not a bobble on their level. Personally, I think it has to do with one's belief system, relationship stability, and in some cases, the exact circumstances encountered. One of my best friends committed suicide over his experiences... and who's to say that had I experienced what he did, I wouldn't have also?

FWiedner... I have it on very good authority that the whole of VietNam was a "police action."

[Charles]

A couple of thoughts on the subject at hand;

1. I have never killed anybody and hope I never will.

2. I have had to counsel with a couple of dozen men who had and who were troubled by the experience. While the people and events were different, there was a common thread through them all. It was the circumstances of the killing that had them bothered. Killing in combat (police and military) was not the issue, but it was the individual/individuals killed and circumstance and that gave rise to the issue.

3. There are some possibilities in life that must be pre-thought as there will not be time to think them through at the time. The use of deadly force to protect yourself or someone else is one such issue. If you have not come to terms with the possibility, then unload your guns and put them away. If not, you will hesitate and that could be a disaster.

[Paladin]

I agree with Buck and COSteve. Most of my friends (that were willing to talk about it worrying about their clearance) have or had a reoccurring night mare like that, could not get the gun to fire regardless of how hard they pulled the trigger, etc. I have seen a Special Forces trained soldier upon first contact lock up and have to be pulled to cover then get over it and become a fighting machine of legend. After a shooting more than a few good men quit the job because they could not handle the aftermath of a not only justified, but required shooting. No one knows how they will react until it is over with but the rule that seen to hold true is you will fight like you train and making that decision is part of the training or forethought.
Hope the requirement never arises for you.

[Mescalero]

Still have lead in my leg, and unwilling to talk about it.
Everyone reacts differently.