POLITICS - Defending Homeschool Freedom in California

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:14 pm

I just heard about this and find it very disheartening.

Defending Homeschool Freedom in California

The HSLDA has a petition that can be signed if you want to.

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:34 pm

The goal of the legislature and courts in Ca is to remove all rights possible.

I will vote for no education bonds here ever.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:36 pm

Can't have socialism if the state can't indoctrinate the kids

Is this really all these courts do nowadays? Take freedoms away?

Keep trying to find places where they believe the states nose belongs?

Utterly and completely sickening

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:29 pm

Latest I heard, the LA Times simply reported this wrong, and there is no threat to homeschooling in California (at the moment).

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:19 am

I have mixed veiws on home schooling. The reason being is that I worked as school teacher in the public system for a number of years and have seen students who were homeschooled. Granted they were a small number but all seemed to have some academic deficit in one or more areas. In a way it makes sense. that this would happen. If I homeschooled my child he or she would have a deficit in math. I am horrible at that subject. In my life two plus two equals five. Unless parents are willing to devote a lot of time and energy into homeschooling there will be some problems such as those I have experienced.

On the other hand I don't blame anyone for homeschooling. Our society has been in a moral decay for some time and the canary in the coal mine is the behavior and academic performance of our young people.

In the not too distant past, any misbehaving child would have been punished quickly. First by the classroom teacher and if necessary, the administration. Then there would be a significant consequence at the home. Mother and father acting like captains and first mate on a ship would delegate what would be done next. Problem solved long before anyone in some sort of governmental agency would be used.

Today it is not the case. I know I will ruffle feathers of some but so be it. Many households are being run by single mothers. It has been my experience that single mothers do not discipline their children as well as those in a married household. To a single mother, that child is the only source of love and you do not punish your only source of love. Pretty simple. I have seen time and time again where limits were not set nor were the person supposedly in charge acted as if they were in charge. To me there is no such thing as a democracy or equality in a family. Someone has to be on top, whether it is a mother or a father. Someone has to be the final arbiter with any problem arising. Sadly that is not the case in a single mother household. I have seen a number of single mothers sort of soft soap a situation rather than putting her foot down.

Since the above system isn't working too well, the courts and all sorts of agencies have to come in. Basically the child in question will have to be taken out of custody for a certain amount of time. It could be short or long term depending on the situation. Too many lawyers have expanded rights of children to their detriment. Children by their very nature do not have the cognitive ability to make fully informed decisions yet the court system and their advocates act as if they do. So when you have a kid that has been in trouble and that started out as small trouble in the past you now have to educate them.

The troubled child has to be placed, by law, in the least restrictive environment. Behavior in of itself is not considered a disability and may not be grounds for removal from the school setting. If that behavior can be linked to a bonafide disability under special education law that student may be placed in a different setting such as a special school. If not, you are stuck with little Damien. So as a concerned parent you see the discipline and academic standards spiral downward because teachers are focusing 80% of their energy on discipline rather than the core of their subject. Hence all suffer including good staff who finally get fed up with the system and move to something more rewarding. Many parents put up with it and so their children suffer in many ways. One is the message sent by tolerating this nonsense which encourages even the good kids to test the system. Some parents see this issue and have come up with the solution. Home schooling. Again I don't blame people for doing it. In a study done a ways back by the U. of Michigan 70% of the parents who opted for homeschooling did so for safety reasons while the other percentage did it for religious reasons. I know there is a negative attitude towards homeschooling from tenured staff. Many use the excuse that the parents are prejudiced and don't want their children to meet the children of other races . I am sure that is true for some but the vast majority choose to homeschool because of the problems I have outlined.

Most states have laws that allow homeschooling and minimum requirements for a homeschooled education. So it isn't like anyone can take their kid out. You need to have a well written plan of study in most cases.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:59 am

I would support homeschooling, if all students were required to pass exactly the same test to gradute that public school studets are required to pass. I do believe that a family should have to right to home school if they wish.

Parents that homeschool should be required to have the same education level that the state requires for public school teachers.

I've come in contact with dozens of homeschoolers over the years that couldn't read or write.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:23 am

bigbore442001 wrote:
Today it is not the case. I know I will ruffle feathers of some but so be it. Many households are being run by single mothers. It has been my experience that single mothers do not discipline their children as well as those in a married household. To a single mother, that child is the only source of love and you do not punish your only source of love. Pretty simple. I have seen time and time again where limits were not set nor were the person supposedly in charge acted as if they were in charge. To me there is no such thing as a democracy or equality in a family. Someone has to be on top, whether it is a mother or a father. Someone has to be the final arbiter with any problem arising. Sadly that is not the case in a single mother household. I have seen a number of single mothers sort of soft soap a situation rather than putting her foot down.

(feathers not ruffled

)

Nothing against single mothers, but it should be a last resort.

In the past single mothers were few and far between, everyone felt bad for
them so they decided to help out.

"Giving people something for nothing"

Now if a young girl, or any woman, becomes pregnant the state has given
her options and support through free income. Some say this is a good thing. I do not.

Now you have children that are grossly more apt to grow up without a proper
family surrounding. Some say that doesn't matter. I do.

Single mothers of days gone by did suffer, it's no easy life. They were a warning
for the rest of society to plan ahead and be careful what you do, there are
consequences to your actions. People knew to make sure you had good
connections with friends and family and to be aware of how you treat these
connections or they could be lost. People had to learn to work together.

The state says "no worries, do as you please, we will be there to help."

Does anyone here really think the state is helping anything at all. I say they
hurt us as a society.

Without discipline there can be no order. You can't teach discipline if there is
an entity (the state) that keeps coming in behind people and trying to fix
everything. Nice idea, but very hurtful in the long run.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:36 am

I think that the state should butt the F out.

Parents should be able to raise their children to be as dumb as a gray rock if they want to. Society needs people at that level just as much as it needs the garden variety college graduate.

What society would do well without, are the over and mis-educated idiots that sit on court benches or who try to force their own morals and beliefs on everyone else via legislation and under color of law.

If more freeloaders starved and more politicians got shot, the USA would be a better place.

People need to be free whether they are ignorant, or not.

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:54 am

As it stands now, the workers support the lazy.

Hard working families don't produce as many offspring as lazy freeloaders do.

Once there are too many lazies for the too few workers to take care of well
then we may see an end to this problem.

America recycled if you will. I just hope she doesn't get lost at the landfill

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:39 am

Jeeps wrote:As it stands now, the workers support the lazy.

Hard working families don't produce as many offspring as lazy freeloaders do.

Once there are too many lazies for the too few workers to take care of well
then we may see an end to this problem.

America recycled if you will. I just hope she doesn't get lost at the landfill

I realize that it's not what you said, but uneducated does not equate to lazy.

I would venture to say that a large part of America's past (as opposed to present) greatness was due to the hard work of uneducated people.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:56 am

"Once there are too many lazies for the too few workers to take care of well then we may see an end to this problem."

As did Rome.......

I think a law requiring kids to be educated is fine. We've had that for over 100 years.

I'm tired of paying too much income tax to feed the uneducated.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:24 am

well, we homeschooled our three children. they could have passed the Alaska high school equivilency exam by the time they completed their eighth grade courses.

funny to see attacks on home schooling when it produces better results than the government monopoly.

the local school wants those kids for only one reason, they want the funding they miss because the home school kids don't show up in the head count. follow the money.

and if you read through the stuff on this the bottom line is that they want to wrest control of the students from the parents and make sure they can destroy the family's values and continuity.

there might be some altruistic teachers in the system, but the system is rotten to the core and as corrupt as the irs.

I knowingly and intentionally obeyed God's instruction to raise my children in the knowledge of the Lord. That's a full time, 24/7 function of parenting.

Two of my children did eventually get into the school system. One is an honor student working on his master, one is a successful graduate of university of Texas, and one is the mate on a tugboat with all that entails.

And no, they aren't fluent in ebonics.

the public school system is systemically broken. it's a union job for pity's sake, and a government union job at that.

show me one example where a government union worker can consistently produce a better product than the free market.

that's what homeschoolers are, a free market enterprise that values the minds and hearts and souls of their children more than the state does, and they focus their family enterprise exactly the same way a family owned business operates, with the same energy and problems and successes.

to you homeschoolers in ca, I support you, I admire you, and I am certain that you have the best possible futures for your children, IF YOU LEAVE THAT STATE.

the law condemning your homes already exists. it's on the books. it's the plato version of fascism; the children belong to the state and the state has a compelling interest in getting them away from your family to indoctrinate them. that's the issue, I hope you can all move en-masse and escape the stinking corruption of that state government. otherwise you will be forced to surrender your children, your future, your dna pool, to the state minions.

sorry teachers, that's how it is. if you want to change it why not start some homeschool consortiums and produce truly unique citizens who can think for themselves and can retain their innocence for the longest possible time? that would be altruistic and in the children's best interest. that would assist the families and resist the state. what's not to like about that idea, eh?

I call BS on anyone and everyone who says it can't be done. I know for a FACT that it can be done, 'cause we've done it.

a pox on corrupt state governments, on their lawbooks, and on their morally bankrupt judges.

gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggrizz

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:42 am

I guess it depends on how you define better results. If there is no other choice, I think homeschooling is fine.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:48 am

Swampman wrote:I guess it depends on how you define better results. If there is no other choice, I think homeschooling is fine.

yeah it's past fine, it's extroadinarily successful. my grand children will have my grandparent's values. can you say that about the urban government monopoly school results? I don't think so. so there's one aspect of better results.

my children are one example of better results, I know many others personally, and there are millions of examples across the nation.

versus the one third or so that never make it entirely through the public school monopoly... so that'd be another criteria for comparison.

HOME SCHOOLING IS THE BETTER CHOICE

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:38 pm

FWiedner wrote:
Jeeps wrote:As it stands now, the workers support the lazy.

Hard working families don't produce as many offspring as lazy freeloaders do.

Once there are too many lazies for the too few workers to take care of well
then we may see an end to this problem.

America recycled if you will. I just hope she doesn't get lost at the landfill
I realize that it's not what you said, but uneducated does not equate to lazy.

I would venture to say that a large part of America's past (as opposed to present) greatness was due to the hard work of uneducated people.

Uneducated in no way equals unintelligent either. The dairy farm I grew up
on only one aunt (retired registered nurse) had a high school degree.
My Mother had an 8th grade and my Father a 3rd grade education.

Of my three uncles who ran the farm, I don't believe any got into high school.
All three very sharp business men with strong backs. When it came to ordering
things for the farm they could whip a pencil out and preform algebra on the
milk room wall with any high school teacher.

But yes, the "lazy" people I refer to are the ones riding the system on
welfare. Strong back, strong minds, but content to lay there and have the
state send them checks every month.

As long as they have new clothes and weed and can walk around town and
hang out, thats all that matters to them. No ambitions or work ethic to speak of.

God forbid you say anything, intolerance is not allowed

There used to be pride in contributing to the system or in making your life
better, now you are handed pride at birth and nothing is ever expected of you.
_______________________________

I kinda got carried away there for a moment, you are correct though, it has
always been the uneducated that has sustained any society, even today.

While the bar has been raised as to the average level of education in this
country, it is still people within the lowest percentage who do the actual real
world work that keeps our machine running.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:51 pm

my grand children will have my grandparent's values

A stable society is one that preserves and protects its deepest core values.

It's obvious that government unions cannot compete with free market education, that's why california will use the power of the state to destroy the home schools and the values they represent to our future.

Naturally anyone feeding at that trough will defend statism, but let's at least call it what it is.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:11 pm

Swampman wrote:I would support homeschooling, if all students were required to pass exactly the same test to gradute that public school studets are required to pass. I do believe that a family should have to right to home school if they wish.

Parents that homeschool should be required to have the same education level that the state requires for public school teachers.

I'd agree with these statements IF they were true, but here in CA they are not.

The kids have to pass the same tests as the in-schoolers, and teachers in private schools do NOT have to be credentialed. I know cause I had my daughter in private school for years and some of their teachers were a joke. BUT some of the public school teachers are too and they are "qualified".

As long as the "kids" meet the state standards I say the state needs to but out.

No offense to those on here that teach but I've seen way too many teachers with a high and mighty opinion of themselves. Do not misunderstand me, I support good teachers and back them up at home, but there are a good number of them that need to be "re-trained" themselves.

I have twin sons, now 23, that their KINDERGARTEN teachers (two at once) tried very hard to get us to hold them back because they couldn't color in the lines. I'm dead serious.

One son graduated with high honors and a valadictorian in HS, the other with high honors. Then they BOTH went through just 4 years of college each, one to grad from UCLA (sociology major) with honors, and the other from UC Santa Barbara (english major) also with honors.

Oh, for the record, we didn't hold them back. They couldn't color in the lines, but consistantly tested in the 98th percentile or HIGHER every time.

No I didn't home school them, they'd still be in high school if I did.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:47 pm

The education level of the homeschoolers I've met could only be described as a joke. I've met a bunch. I've begged my children not to homeschool my grandkids. They'll need to make a living when they get older. Public school is a joke but at least it's not sleeping half the day while your mom fakes your school work.

The parents will deny this for as long as the have breath, but it's the truth.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:08 pm

Although Canada ranks high in international academic standards, my wife and I both feel that normal children can do much better than that. We have six kids and have home-educated them all to varying extents up to high school. When they go into high school, they find the high school curriculum easy in comparison to the excellent curriculum available to home educators. Two independent studies done here in Canada find that home schooled children out-perform students in the public school system in all areas, including university. There are now huge conferences with gymnasiums full of publishers offering home-education curriculum that makes the public school system look sick by comparison. I should emphasize that this is not the fault of teachers, but of education professors and government agencies that determine curriculum for the public system. Recently, a group of home school junior high students, including one of my sons, participated in some math exam for bright students (the Pascal exam, or Hilbert exam, or something like that). Our homeschool group figured it would be a fun experience for the kids. An official proctor came in to oversee the exam. When it was finished, the proctor, who has been running these exams for years, said that in her entire career, she had never seen so many high scoring children in one room. I don't think these kids are geniuses, they just have good curriculum and dedicated stay-at-home mothers who tutor them.

Now as for California ..... what planet does the CA government come from? I see more and more that certain types want to get kids into a 'value-neutral' educational situation. I suspect similar for California re. home schooling. It sounds to me like California is going to hell in a hand basket. Today, I read a document sent out by one public agency here in Canada that suggests that Christian parents should not be involved in caring for, or educating children because they are 'heterosexist' and 'homophobic'. The agency is working to 'weed out' those Christians who will not sign a statement of compliance. By the way, 'heterosexism' is the belief that marriage between a man and a woman is the best kind of marriage, as opposed to same-sex marriage or sexual relations. So if you think heterosexual sex is morally better than homosexual sex, you are a 'heterosexist'. The propagation of this kind of sickness is what I fear most if Hillary gets power. For those of you who believe in prayer, we need to pray for a massive spiritual awakening in Canada and the USA or our civilizations are toast ..... remember how the Roman Empire fell.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:23 pm

I must say that while our children went to public school the homeschoolers I know comport with what Kirk has to say on the issue.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:27 pm

Old Savage wrote:I must say that while our children went to public school the homeschoolers I know comport with what Kirk has to say on the issue.

A stable society is one that preserves and protects its deepest core values.

It's obvious that government unions cannot compete with free market education, that's why california will use the power of the state to destroy the home schools and the values they represent to our future. Statism is the exact opposite of liberty. Statist institutions produce statists.

I agree with the above...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:31 pm

Home schooling is a viable alternative if the parents are really concerned with making sure the kids get a good education. If there is another motive then there's nothing that can be done.
My son has never set foot in a Gov't school except to render assistance to one of his aunts who is a teacher there. I worked 70 hours a week six days long to make sure he got a good Christian education in a private Christian school.
It seems to me that if the parents of children in Ca are homeschooling their kids for religious reasons, the state doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If they are doing it for some other reason even though it's valid they might have problems making it stick. IMHO

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:50 pm

I think private Christian schools are the best. My granddaughter's cost $340.00 a month.

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:03 am

The way I see it, if the parents aren't "qualified" to teach: what else will the California goverment deem them "unqualified" to do concerning their children?

I can't home school my kid, I just can't. We both have to work and private schools aren't even an option. But, you can bet your sweet bippy that I will have my eye on what the public system is teaching her.

I was in the public school system not that long ago; I have a pretty good idea what "dregs of society" it is capable of producing.

JP_TX · Post by **JP_TX** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:40 am

With all due respect to all that's been said, I think this is a "Hot butts on seats." issue. The schools still get paid for the number of students sitting in classrooms. What was it 136,000 home schooled in Kalifornia. Thats a lot of federal money that the state is not getting. That is a lot of extra teachers that the NEA can't collect dues from.

I lived in California back when it was fun and free. I left after more than 30 years when it stopped being either. One thing is certain, Kali is one of the greediest states I've ever been aquainted with.

As for what the home schoolers should do about it. I think they should just leave the state for someplace that is more understanding of personal freedom.

Personal freedom is a lost concept to the great socialist state of California. If you aren't living to take care of the Planet, or hate Republicans, Boy Scouts, the Military, or anyone that uses tobacco anywhere, anytime under any cercumstance, then they would be happy if you left anyway.