NFA Trust question

[Tycer]

I've been asked to be a partner in a trust so my bud can get a can. I am aware of the pros, what are the cons?

[6pt-sika]

Why exactly does he need you to be a partner to get the trust ?

My gunsmith buddy has a trust set up for his , but I don't recall him needing anyone else to be involved to get the thing .

From what he told me you get the trust so if something happens to the actual buyer it can go to another person setup in the trust . And I think that is without having to get the $200 tax stamp again .

[Hobie]

I am NOT a lawyer. You should ask a LAWYER in your state of residence. However my take on it is..., he does not need a partner in the trust but Craig is right, if something happens to him the suppressor belongs to the trust and would then be yours without further paperwork. We've seen that here in VA. Nice gift! The downside would be if he did do something untoward with the suppressor you'd be at least somewhat involved. That's MY take on it.

[6pt-sika]

I might add my gunsmith friend included me on his trust . But mainly so I could take the suppressor out and use it by myself .

Otherwise without me being on the trust I needed him to be with me to use the thing .

[AJMD429]

Otherwise without me being on the trust I needed him to be with me to use the thing .

Technically (but of course we know our friends in the gubment would never abuse a technicality in preference to enforcing the law against a true criminal), it is against the law for a suppressor-owner to leave home and go to work with the suppressor in his gun safe if anyone else in the household knows where the key is or knows the combination, becauses that leaves them in 'possession' of the suppressor...

[Sixgun]

My son says that its a good thing as he appears to be educated on it with his last purchase of a couple of cans. Personally, I have no NFA objects of any kind as that does put you on a "list", and if the muslim hits the fan, your gonna get a knock at the door.......first.

Thats your "con". But...........I do tend to be overly pessimistic on the Feds so it all might be in my head.

My buds a class 3 dealer and I'm headed over there now and I'll throw it by him and report back later--------------------Sixgun

[Rusty]

I never thought about the trust for the purpose of passing the objects in the trust to another generation. My local dealer told me it was being used by local residents here because the sheriff of our county refuses to sign off on possession by a private citizen.

[rimrock]

I am not a lawyer. My 2 cents only-- If the trust isn't properly maintained, there could be personal liability attributed to the beneficiaries. In Texas, an improperly registered silencer means serious jail time. Is it worth the risk to save a few hundred dollars instead of getting good legal advice?

[Sixgun]

Is it worth the risk to save a few hundred dollars instead of getting good legal advice?

I just came back from Targetmaster and my guy, who has done hundreds of class 3 transactions, told me nobody has ever mentioned it to him, so the "pros" must not be much. I could be wrong, dunno.

Take Rimrocks advice. ------------Sixgun

[6pt-sika]

I am not a lawyer. My 2 cents only-- If the trust isn't properly maintained, there could be personal liability attributed to the beneficiaries. In Texas, an improperly registered silencer means serious jail time. Is it worth the risk to save a few hundred dollars instead of getting good legal advice?

My gunsmith buddies father and brother are attorny's . And as a matter of fact his father drew up his trust and the same for no less then five friends of ours . So while I agree with what you are saying to a degree , my friends pop is a pretty decent attorny . I tend to think between his dad and his brother that the trust my name is on will be maintained in a decent manner .

[6pt-sika]

I will say this .

FOR MY USE , the suppresser is only of use to me when we damage control hunt . I will also say that at the beginning I was not overly impressed with the whole subsonic thing , then after shooting the 308's some I was starting to turn a bit . Recently I popped a groundhog or two with the subsonic stuff and to be totally honest wasn't overly impressed . So my own use of the suppressed subsonic rifle is not what it was a couple months earlier . And in reality I doubt if I ever try to kill a deer with the suppressed subsonic stuff .

[AJMD429]

I will also say that at the beginning I was not overly impressed with the whole subsonic thing , then after shooting the 308's some I was starting to turn a bit.

I think they are really best in three situations:

• 1. Special-purpose rifles designed for subsonic use of long-for-caliber bullets - i.e. .300 Blackout, etc.
  
  2. Rifles chambered in 'pistol' cartridges (i.e. already slow/heavy) like .45 Colt, or even .22 LR.
  
  3. Supersonic rifles where the only goal is to get below hearing-damage threshold in case the gun has to be fired without hearing protection in place.

The latter would mostly apply to military situations as far as I'm concerned, but the first two are definitely useful and fun.

My local dealer told me it was being used by local residents here because the sheriff of our county refuses to sign off on possession by a private citizen.

That so-called "sheriff" should be impeached from his office and run out of town; what an idiot...

[BAGTIC]

Just load your bullets with small charges of fast burning powder. It is usually possible to get them up to just under Mach 1 to eliminate the sonic crack and with the right powder the muzzle pressure will be low enough to moderate any loud report.

It seems to me that a silencer's true value is to reduce exhaust noise, just like an auto muffler, with normal power loads. You still get the crack but it is not really the part that causes most hearing damage and if the bullet is supersonic the target will never hear it before it hits him.

[rimrock]

I'm not a lawyer--my 2 cents only. I'd say a great benefit of an NFA trust is that a trust doesn't have to be a public document, so a properly created trust might give you more privacy concerning your toys. But, remember you gotta have to fund the trust and you absolutely still must pay the ATF stamp charge. I'd say the stamp needs to be with the firearm at all times. So, a major con to having an NFA trust--what if you misplace the proof that you paid the stamp fee and a game warden comes into camp asking questions about your otherwise legal silencer? You face federal penalties if you handle a class III item without the proper permission. Will the feds drop the charges once you give them the proper documents, or will you still need to pay for attorneys' fees to get out of the sticky situation.

You must always be C A U T I O U S when handling class III items. Are you responsible enough to always comply with the law? Only you know the answer to these questions.

[6pt-sika]

I'd say the stamp needs to be with the firearm at all times. So, a major con to having an NFA trust--what if you misplace the proof that you paid the stamp fee and a game warden comes into camp asking questions about your otherwise legal silencer? You face federal penalties if you handle a class III item without the proper permission.

We carried laminated copies of the trust AND the stamp when we're out and about with them . One friend went so far as to buy a stock for his Ruger 10-22 that has a compartment for storing his papers !

[AJMD429]

A friend who is a Class-III FFL as well as hobbyist, says he used to get attempts at confiscation when he'd go to rural areas to shoot - this came up when I invited him down to my place to shoot his .50 BMG - (the Browning-belt-fed kind on a tripod ), and he told me his policy was to always call ahead the local LEO's to inform them there'd be full-auto fire and where. If he didn't they'd get all excited, call out the SWAT, and come with full-testosterone in gear. Upon finding out there was nothing illegal going on, they'd be embarassed, and of course if embarassed, they start dreaming up 'crimes' to investigate, or if crooked, start digging out 'evidence' from their pockets to 'find'. So, he avoided problems by giving them a heads-up. Often, they'd ask if they could come shoot his toys, and he'd encourage them to do so but ask them to bring their own ammo. So the SWAT boys would show up as friends, instead of enemies, and bring a few tax-paid-for cases of .50 BMG or whatever.

[6pt-sika]

A friend who is a Class-III FFL as well as hobbyist, says he used to get attempts at confiscation when he'd go to rural areas to shoot - this came up when I invited him down to my place to shoot his .50 BMG - (the Browning-belt-fed kind on a tripod ), and he told me his policy was to always call ahead the local LEO's to inform them there'd be full-auto fire and where. If he didn't they'd get all excited, call out the SWAT, and come with full-testosterone in gear. Upon finding out there was nothing illegal going on, they'd be embarassed, and of course if embarassed, they start dreaming up 'crimes' to investigate, or if crooked, start digging out 'evidence' from their pockets to 'find'. So, he avoided problems by giving them a heads-up. Often, they'd ask if they could come shoot his toys, and he'd encourage them to do so but ask them to bring their own ammo. So the SWAT boys would show up as friends, instead of enemies, and bring a few tax-paid-for cases of .50 BMG or whatever.

I understand it easier to catch flies with honey then it is with vinegar and its decent advice !

However ........................... Having to basically KISS THEIR BACKSIDES even when you're totally legal is a pile of you know what .

[AJMD429]

It seems to me that a silencer's true value is to reduce exhaust noise, just like an auto muffler, with normal power loads. You still get the crack but it is not really the part that causes most hearing damage and if the bullet is supersonic the target will never hear it before it hits him.

As I posted above, to me it seems they have three appropriate uses:

• 1. Special-purpose rifles designed for subsonic use of long-for-caliber bullets - i.e. .300 Blackout, etc.
  
  2. Rifles chambered in 'pistol' cartridges (i.e. already slow/heavy) like .45 Colt, or even .22 LR.
  
  3. Supersonic rifles where the only goal is to get below hearing-damage threshold in case the gun has to be fired without hearing protection in place.

For the first two you can get ghost-like silence (quieter than a typical pellet gun), and the last one just avoids hearing damage if you can't get your muffs on before the gun is fired. The latter situation would be a natural for hunting, but the hoplophobes have made it illegal most places.

[6pt-sika]

It seems to me that a silencer's true value is to reduce exhaust noise, just like an auto muffler, with normal power loads. You still get the crack but it is not really the part that causes most hearing damage and if the bullet is supersonic the target will never hear it before it hits him.

As I posted above, to me it seems they have three appropriate uses:

• 1. Special-purpose rifles designed for subsonic use of long-for-caliber bullets - i.e. .300 Blackout, etc.
  
  2. Rifles chambered in 'pistol' cartridges (i.e. already slow/heavy) like .45 Colt, or even .22 LR.
  
  3. Supersonic rifles where the only goal is to get below hearing-damage threshold in case the gun has to be fired without hearing protection in place.

For the first two you can get ghost-like silence (quieter than a typical pellet gun), and the last one just avoids hearing damage if you can't get your muffs on before the gun is fired. The latter situation would be a natural for hunting, but the hoplophobes have made it illegal most places.

For me the ONLY use is to make it as quiet as possible so the landowner where we DCP hunt will not stick his head out the door as soon as we shoot hollering "whaddya get" , that does not make it easy to get a second one in quick succesion .

Now after popping a groundhog with our subsonic deer loads I ain't overly excited about the whole thing anylonger .

Now while all the things you both mentioned are of value to alotta folks they are a non issue with me .Which I am sure my reason is to the both of you .
Oh and for it being illegal in Virginia , it's perfectly legal during DCP hunting . During the normal season I have no desire to throttle them back .

[cas]

Ground hog's not thick enough. Seriously.

I've only seen one game animal shot with a "sub-sonic rifle"…. it was a 220gr Match King out of a 10" 300 Whisper, a pistol really. A finishing shot on a deer already down, but looking like it might get up. The bullet made a caliber sized hole, went in a few inches and turned broadside leaving a 2+" wide wound through the heart and lungs that looked like a stab wound from a broad sword.

[6pt-sika]

Ground hog's not thick enough. Seriously.

No smart guy , the bullet stayed in the groundhog .

[Ysabel Kid]

Hey Tycer -

I just recently got my paperwork back and the tax stamp. I had to form a trust as my local sheriff wouldn't sign the individual application. Can't think of a requirement to name you to the trust, but like others, I see one main "pro" and one main "con". Pro would be that you could legally use it without your friend, and it would become yours without the tax stamp should he die. Con is the potential liability as a trustee should something happen with it.