30-30 Ackley Improved

[elmo123]

Has anyone rechambered a 30-30 to 30-30AI and if so was there that much of an improvement?

Thanks,

Mike

[Don McDowell]

You can gain about 200-250fps with 150's and 150-maybe 200 with 170's.
The trick is to use powders slower than you normally would with the 30-30.
If I were to do it again, I'ld work up to maximum loads with slow powders like rl 15,4350, etc, and then after the rechamber fireform with those maximum loads in the regular cases, and watch the chronograph as you work up another 2 grs of powder. When/if you hit 200 fps more with the 150's and still have the accuracy that's a good place to stop, same with the 170's you get another 150 fps and still have the same accuracy as before, time to call it good.

[BAGTIC]

I once had a M788 in 30-30 AI. I loaded it with 125 grain bullets at about 2700 fps. The coastal blacktail deer were very small and 125 was more than enough. I sold it to some one in Texas who wanted a light recoil gun for his wife to hunt the smallish Texas whitetails.

[earlmck]

You can gain about 200-250fps with 150's and 150-maybe 200 with 170's.

I know that was true back in the days when 4895 and BL-C2 were the best powders we had for the old 30/30. But with Hodgdon's LVR powder giving 2350 fps to the 170 grain bullet and 2500 to the 150 (24" bbl), I'm wondering if it still is attractive to do the AI thing? And especially if you shoot many cast bullets, for which the old original with its beautiful long neck is close to perfection in a cartridge case.

But hey, I should be the last fellow to try to discourage somebody from doing a little wildcatting. So don't pay a lot of attention to my question, elmo. It is a thought which has prevented me (so far) from doing the AI to one of my 30's. But I also mostly shoot the cast bullets.

Anyway, curious what some of you levergunners with 30/30 AI's think. Do some of the new powders kick the AI up another notch so that it can maintain that velocity advantage it used to have?

[Mike Rintoul]

We've found a lot of variation depends on the original chamber, quality of conversion and brass. While the previous poster has had slightly different experiences, we've seen an average increase of 125 fps with 150's and 100 fps with 170's from a 20" barrel. Some specific barrels give as much as 75 fps over that. Depending on powder, you may not see a gain with 24" barrel unless the burn continues longer and here's where the second poster is probably on to something. With our proprietary powders we load 170's to 2200 fps in standard 30-30. Some folks swear these hit harder and fly flatter than a slower typical 170' but in the end it comes down to bullet construction and shot placement. The thing about AI to really think about is that you can't go back. Good luck with your quest.

[t.r.]

Sam Fadala dedicated two chapters of his book to the AI cartridge. He produced higher velocites and longer case life.

TR

[TedH]

I rechambered a Marlin 30TK to the Ackley. I got about 175 fps gain in the 18.5" barrel. I can get 150 gr. bullets up to 2500 fps without any trouble using RL15.

[Don McDowell]

You can gain about 200-250fps with 150's and 150-maybe 200 with 170's.

I know that was true back in the days when 4895 and BL-C2 were the best powders we had for the old 30/30. But with Hodgdon's LVR powder giving 2350 fps to the 170 grain bullet and 2500 to the 150 (24" bbl), I'm wondering if it still is attractive to do the AI thing? And especially if you shoot many cast bullets, for which the old original with its beautiful long neck is close to perfection in a cartridge case.

But hey, I should be the last fellow to try to discourage somebody from doing a little wildcatting. So don't pay a lot of attention to my question, elmo. It is a thought which has prevented me (so far) from doing the AI to one of my 30's. But I also mostly shoot the cast bullets.

Anyway, curious what some of you levergunners with 30/30 AI's think. Do some of the new powders kick the AI up another notch so that it can maintain that velocity advantage it used to have?

The newest powder I've tried in my ai is Ramshots Big Game, velocity wasn't especially spectacular, but the accuracy was phenominal.Factory velocity claims from some of this stuff has seldom prooved true when run across normal folks chronographs,,, so unless and until folks start actually validating the claimed fps for the LvR powder then I'ld be skeptical, but even at that if it did proove out when you added the extra 5% for the ai conversion , wouldn't it stand to reason that the AI would really be a superduty conversion?
Nobody can say whether the conversion would be worthwhile for someone else or not. In my case I believe it was, as the rifle I had it done to was an extra that if it got screwed up in the process wasn't any big loss.

[TedH]

That's exactly right Don. I tried the LvR in my Ackley, and chronographed velocity was disappointing. I was expecting 2600 fps, given all the hype, what I got was just a hair under 2400 fps and accuracy was dismal. Much better off with RL15 in my rifle.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yes - I've done this and using the same propellant that I use with 30-30 get 150-200 fps or so faster velocities. This is W748 and IMR 3031.

I am sure going with RL15 or other similiar, I could improve on this.

The 30-30 AI is one of the best AI's to do in terms of real velocity increase. Ditto for 25-35 which is even better.

I rechambered a barrel from Numrich - 24" half round/half octagonal with 3/4 mag tube. They had these available a while back - replaced the barrel and front-end on a late 60's 94 along with a new cresent butstock.

[Don McDowell]

Ted thanks for the info. That's similar to what I found with RL12, in some manuals it showed some sizzler velocity with the standard 30-30 , I couldn't even get to the claimed velocity with the ai.... Stuff is THE powder to make a 405 set up and pay attention tho.

[Blaine]

(1) I'm lazy.

(2) Both my 30WCF (the 1951 Win 94, and the 80-something 336) shoot into little bitty groups with about any cheap WalMart factory 170 and I'd be crazy to mess with them. In these thick woods around here I can't see far enough to take advantage of the AI, and if I plan to hunt on a clear cut, I'll take the scoped '06.

(3) You should do it if you want to.

[O.S.O.K.]

No flies on the standard 30-30, but if you want some more poop, this is an economical way to do it.

[earlmck]

Factory velocity claims from some of this stuff has seldom prooved true when run across normal folks chronographs,,, so unless and until folks start actually validating the claimed fps for the LvR powder then I'd be skeptical, but even at that if it did proove out when you added the extra 5% for the ai conversion , wouldn't it stand to reason that the AI would really be a superduty conversion?

I've used the LVR powder in my Marlin 30/30 and Remington 141 in 30 Rem (identical case capacities for both 30/30 and 30 Rem). With the 170 grain Remington I worked up to 36.5 grains of the LVR, CCI 200 primer, R-P cases. This is somewhat compressed. Velocities were 2350 fps with the 30/30 and a tad over 2400 fps with the 30 Remington. Both these rifles have 24" barrels, and I've not tried this in my 20" bbl Winchester. I decided this was now IT as my hunting load for both rifles and have not tried anything else.

I found LVR to be tricky in that I didn't get accuracy until I had the full recommended load (and maybe a bit more) and gave it a firm "Factory Crimp" with the Lee FC die. But once I did all that, it lives up to the Hodgdon claims and shoots as well as any load to date in those rifles. I posted on this at the time I was doing the work-up: http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... hilit=+LVR

So I know people get a little more than that velocity with the 30/30 AI, but not enough more to get me to move on it, especially since these rifles spend 99% of their lives busting tin cans or steel plates using mostly cast bullets.

[elmo123]

Thanks for all of the input. I have tried LVR but not the maximum load yet because the accuracy wasn't all the great. I have been using 38.0 of 748 with a 150 grain bullet and have been getting 2480 fps from my 26" bbl 94 and 2380 fps from my 20" pre-war 94. Accuracy is very good but I have a H&R single barrel that I was considering rechambering. If not the 30-30AI maybe 30-40 krag just to experiment with.

Mike

[Hobie]

(1) I'm lazy.

(2) Both my 30WCF (the 1951 Win 94, and the 80-something 336) shoot into little bitty groups with about any cheap WalMart factory 170 and I'd be crazy to mess with them. In these thick woods around here I can't see far enough to take advantage of the AI, and if I plan to hunt on a clear cut, I'll take the scoped '06.

(3) You should do it if you want to.

HEY! I was gonna say that...

[Griff]

(1) I'm lazy.

(2) Both my 30WCF (the 1951 Win 94, and the 80-something 336) shoot into little bitty groups with about any cheap WalMart factory 170 and I'd be crazy to mess with them. In these thick woods around here I can't see far enough to take advantage of the AI, and if I plan to hunt on a clear cut, I'll take the scoped '06.
(3) You should do it if you want to.

HEY! I was gonna say that...

+1
Only things I'd add is that with multiple .30-30s, that I can grab any rifle and any ammo and know I got the right combo! And, I don;t think it'll add any value, especially to my older ones!

[Don McDowell]

[
So I know people get a little more than that velocity with the 30/30 AI, but not enough more to get me to move on it, especially since these rifles spend 99% of their lives busting tin cans or steel plates using mostly cast bullets.

Keep in mind that Ackley came up with his improoved chambers back in the day when folks didn't have alot of money, and especially didn't have the extra cash to by new guns. So by a simple and relatively inexpensive rechamber job the abilities of the one and only rifle they owned could be increased, and still retain the ability to use standard ammo.
So here we are 70 years later, and it's still a good conversion if a person wants to try it. But for a rifle that spends 99% of it's time busting cans or steel plates, I can even think of much better/cheaper cartridges to use than the 30-30...
The AI's are shrouded in mystic and controversy. Those that try them in the low pressure cartridges, ie 30-30, 7x57, 257 roberts etc, are generally pretty happy with them. The higher pressure cartridges, 308,270 etc don't see much gain.
But the only way anyone anywhere will ever truly know if it's worthwhile according to their definition is to try it. And unlike many conversions there is a going back. You can fire factory ammo in it until the cows come home, and have no ill affects other than a huge pile of fireformed ai brass you can sell or trade, or you can reload those fireformed brass, and find much better case life, and accuracy, and in theory less wear on the bolt face than the parent cartridge, and not have to use special powders, or provide excessive crimp to get those special powders to work as the slick ad's claim they will....
I happen to like the 30-30 ai and feel it was well worth the effort and cost, and when I really want increased velocity from a 30 caliber levergun, I'll happily take a blr or savage 99 in 308 (both of which are no further away than the combination on the lock of my gun safe) And when I want to bust cans..... that's the perfect thing that 22's have been doing since the 1860's.

[earlmck]

But the only way anyone anywhere will ever truly know if it's worthwhile according to their definition is to try it.

Well said, Don. As you can tell, I have strongly considered trying the AI. And would have if I had extra 30/30's laying around unemployed. And I'm not real happy about having to put on that heavy crimp to make the LVR work for me, as that has to be hard on case life (the only 30/30 cases I loose are to mouth splits). But I don't shoot many full-powered loads with jacketed bullets, have 100's of cases and maybe use 40 of them for hunting loads, so it's not a big deal here.

Anyway, sounds like Mike does have extra 30/30's sitting around and we'll hope he goes ahead and does the AI conversion, just to keep life interesting...

[Blaine]

Ok....Someone help out a dummy.....what is LVR? LeverRevolution Powder? If so, I didn't know you could buy it, and if not, I'm stuck

[TedH]

Ok....Someone help out a dummy.....what is LVR? LeverRevolution Powder? If so, I didn't know you could buy it, and if not, I'm stuck

You are correct Sir.

[elmo123]

Yes, Leverevolution, not sure if I spelled it right. I bought some when it first came out. I am not really looking to increase velocity because most of my shooting is at paper/plinking. I shoot a lot of cast bullets also. The only problem with higher velocity is the standard iron sights are regulated to shoot factory ammo. When you speed thing up you can't lower the rear sight low enough to get the rifle on paper at 100's. I found this out years ago when I bought a box of Winchester Power Point Plus and fired them out of my 26" Centennial, about 9" high at 100's. I had to install a Marlin folding rear sight and alter the tang peep sight so that it would sit lower. My load of 38.0 of 748 shoots to the same point of aim and is very accurate out of my rifles, all five of them. I have not tried RL15 in the 30-30 but have used it with good results in my 7-30. I use H335 in the 25-35 and 748 in the 32 Spl.

I like to experiment with different caliber lever action rifles and just thought the AI would be an inexpensive way to do that until the new 348's are made.

Mike

[Canuck Bob]

I kinda like the look of the 30-30 and 32 Special case as is. That is a darn silly thing but I like tapered cases with long necks and rims. They were designed to optimize feeding and 2300-2400 fps 170 grain bullets are just about ideal for the lever and its range.

I also secretly crave a MX or XLR in 308 Express so I understand the appeal of the 30-30 AI.

I've considered the AI in 32 Special as something different and that is always a good justification for wildcatting. Straightening the case is a good idea for folks who wish to push the 94/336 a bit to lessen bolt thrust.

I understand that Ackley's success was often tied to ramping up the pressure and case mods. He is quite famous as a guy who routinely blew rifles up to test their limits. The 94 and the 336 are limited in pushing the pressure envelope by design.