OT - Ammo shortage hurting L E agencies.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:08 am

There was an article on the tv news last night that falls right in line with what we shooters have been seeing.

According to the Sangamon County Sheriff (central IL area) there is a shortage of ammo that the Sheriff Dept uses. 9mm, 40 S&W, 5.56, 7.62, and 12 guage .
He said it was caused by the war, and by the fact that although production of copper, brass, and lead was up, the world wide demand for it was crimping the domestic production of ammunition.
The Sheriff stated that they had not yet received their last years order of ammo, and had no idea when they would receive this years order.
He also stated that they will continue to practice and make sure the deputies were ready to defend the public, even if they have to buy ammo locally and pay much higher prices.
All during this news article their video was bouncing between the Sheriff and the departments ammo locker. Their ammo is stacked floor to ceiling in stacks 3' across. Winchester, Federal, and some Remington brands was shown. Many many boxes of ammo.

OK, now to my thoughts; if this is true for one central IL LE agency, then it's probably true for most agencies. I don't know how they order their ammo, but I suspect it's in bulk direct from the manufacturer or a distributor. If they are hurting for ammo, then we as consumers might just want to shut our mouths and start getting serious about ours.
I don't hoard to any great degree, although my reserves might look like it to some. Some of us however don't have any reserves, those are the ones who need to get serious.
The ammo producers will ship to the military first, then to LE agencies then maybe to us insignificant consumers. Personally I don't intend to run short.
I believe the Mormons believe you should always keep a years worth of food in reserve, that's good thinking, but I believe we should keep that much ammo in reserve too.

Joe

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:14 am

Non-military rounds will be available for longer than the stuff that's in demand. I have a few hundred rounds worth of components at home, but I have not yet had the wherewithall to load them up yet.

The cost of the raw materials is a factor, though.

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:52 am

Before I left the Sheriff's Office in June 2005, I was the armorer and firearms instructor for our 15 officer department. I was also on the SWAT Team and bought more ammo for the extra practice there. I ordered from a small company called Rafter 7 out of Dighton Kansas and the Police Department ordered from UltraMax out of SD. If I remember correctly, I ordered about 10,000 rounds a year in .40 SW 180gr FMJ and .223 Rem 55gr FMJ for practice ammo. The duty stuff was Winchester Ranger 180 SXT .40 SW and new manufacture .223 55gr Vmax from Rafter 7. The shotgun was usually the cheapest from either Winchester or Federal. I had about $7500 a year to buy ammo.

The other day the Police Chief asked if I would be able to bid ammo for the Police Department because ammo prices went up. I told him that he will probably be able to get it cheaper direct than I can sell it to him.

I plead with the Sheriff to allocate 800rds a year for all officers and twice that for the two of us on SWAT. That was what we got but not all the officers shot that much. The leftover was to be used as a buffer for just this predicament. Unfortunately, the guy that replaced me is an idiot and I understand that he shot up most of the stockpile because it was there for him to shoot.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:23 pm

Joe -

I agree with you to a point and agree that some are having problems getting ammo in certain calibers but one of the keys to that is that they don't want to pay the going price as your Sheriff stated when he said he could get it at higher prices if he went to commercial suppliers instead of depending on his discount suppliers.

We have two gun shops in my town. One has almost no .223 or 9mm ammo and says he can't get it because of the military war needs (his excuse). The other gun shop has so much .223 and 9mm ammo that you practically trip over it as you walk around his store and he has it at a fairly good price -- pricy but still not too bad.

The difference between the two shops is that the first shop just doesn't want to or can't pay the going price of the ammo and the second shop has no money problems what-so-ever.

As for stockpiling ammo -- I couldn't agree more that we should anticipate our needs for the long haul (say out to 5-years) and stock up accordingly not only with loaded ammo but reloading materials (bullets, brass, powder, primers, etc.) too and spare dies or die parts.

Remington has .223 available in boxes of 250 rounds per box for a pretty good price and a buddy of mine just ordered and received 20-boxes of it for plinking through gun shop 2 in our town and he also ordered a case of Remington's .223 Express Pointed Soft Point for varmint (squirrel, coyote, etc.) hunting.

I have two books that I highly recommend: (Both available from www.amazon.com)

Army Training Manual "Improvised Munitions Handbook" TM 31-210

"AMMO!!! Forever" by Con Paul & David B. Smith

They cover a lot of info on reloading ammo with other than normal reloading materials, etc.. I've tried a couple of them and they work great.

One example is recharging primers by removing the anvil from a spent primer, flatening the base of the primer, making a mixture of phosphorus (sp?) from the head of a strike-anywhere match head, filling the primer with the mixture, replacing the anvil and then repriming a case. Not as good as having a regulation primer but it does work and is the best alternative when you run out of OEM primers.

Thanks for posting this thread.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:48 pm

who carries strike anywhere matches. The grocers no longer do.

jengel · Post by **jengel** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:39 pm

Tycer wrote:who carries strike anywhere matches. The grocers no longer do.

Good point. I have not seen them around for several years.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:39 pm

Tycer wrote:who carries strike anywhere matches. The grocers no longer do.

They carry them at both grocery stores in my town and even at the two hardware stores. Look around your stores -- maybe in the picnic/tooth pick/paper plate/ section. Bet they have them. The reason you haven't seen them is that you probably haven't been looking for them.

The phosphorus on them is white phosphorus and you can get white phosphorus in a lot of places. Ya gotta use your imagination. Otherwise, in a pinch, you'll be sitting on a curb watching everyone passing you up.
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In my post above, I said that the .223 Remingtons came in a box of 250. Wrong!!! They come in boxes of 200.

EDIT:

Actually, we ought to have stuff like strike-anywhere matches on hand. Can't imagine going off to the boonies camping and the like without emergency matches, etc. on hand and in my day pack.

donw · Post by **donw** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:46 pm

well, if things go with LE like ron barretts policy of dealing with the state of kaliphornia, things may get rough for LE agencies nation wide.

citizens for owning and using firearms LAWFULLY may begin to use things like that as leverage aginst sensless anti-gun legislation.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:14 pm

Well, being an Illinois agency and being in one of the most stringent gun control states in the USA that violates my constitutional right to a gun every time I cross the state line. I say that the laws they have passed there should b e enough protection for them. What the heck do they need any ammo for? Until they fix the problems there --they can expect little symphathy from me. I also don't buy the Chicago and rest of the state stuff either.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:21 pm

Just an observation - but it seems to me that for the past 20-30 years, every time there is an upcoming presidential election, the price of ammunition shoots way up...

Is this collective fear of gun owners that more bans will be forthcoming, or even civil unrest, or is it because pretty much each time we're in another war and the military is using it all up?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:12 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Just an observation - but it seems to me that for the past 20-30 years, every time there is an upcoming presidential election, the price of ammunition shoots way up...

Is this collective fear of gun owners that more bans will be forthcoming, or even civil unrest, or is it because pretty much each time we're in another war and the military is using it all up?

Yes.

Joe

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:00 pm

If I went strictly by my annual usage, I have about 10-15 years worth of jacketed bullets stockpiled. I generally buy a couple of boxes whenever I make a trip to the toy store for powder, but shoot far less than that a year. Cast, since I cast in quantity, & a casting session consists of runnin' at least 3 molds and lasts as long as necessary to fill each of my 1lb. cans I have for each boolit, so maybe a years needs of normal match usage. Multiple years usage for other weights and calibers I don't use for CAS matches. The hardest to keep up with is my 225gr truncated cone for .45 Colt and my 150gr GC for the .30-30.

But, when I look at firearms to ammo percentages, I think I'm a little low on .30-30 ammo. I only have about 500 loaded rounds to 24 operational rifles. I have about 1,000 rds of .45ACP for one pistol. I haven't shot a single .45ACP in the 3 years since I left the SO. .45Colt, probably have about 1,000 rds for the 4 pistols and 2 rifles in the safe. .38Spl/.357Mag, I have about 2,000 rds for 3 pistols and 2 rifles. .375 Win, about 200 loaded rds, but only about 50 rds of spare brass. .45-70, about 150 loaded rounds. .40-90SBN, 0 loaded rounds, about 750 boolits in 4 different weights. 7mmRemMag, about 200 loaded rounds, the last 3 for one rifle in each caliber. 12ga., about 100 rnds loaded in BP, about 150 rds in smokeless for 4 shotguns. 20ga., about 200 rounds loaded for the wife's sole side-by-side. .30-06, about 2,000 rnds of milisurp for the Garand. And last, but certainly not least, I have about 1,000 round balls for 3 .36 caliber C&B 1851s, and about 1,000 RBs for the .50 cal Hawken. I pretty much maintain the maximum allowable limit of BP on hand. Primers are where I fall a little shy, currently the inventory stands at less than 10,000; but I do have about 1,000 Small Rifle, for which I don't have a use! Hey, they obviously need one, so maybe a .32-20 would be a practical purchase! Brass is usually not a problem, I store them in cleaned ice-cream plastic buckets. And I've eaten a LOT of ice cream. One can of .38Spls, 3 cans of .45Colt, 1 can of .45ACP, 2 cans of .30-30, plus a couple hundred each of 7mm, .30-06, .45-70, while my .40-90SBN has about 350 rds. Powder is one of those things I buy as I run out, usually as I hit half a can of whatever it might be. So, I don't stock much. but probably have upwards of 25 lbs at any given time. Just wish I had more time for shooting!

With just one Dillon, one "O" and "C" single stage press, changing calibers isn't a real issue, just that I need to think about my needs before I do. Except for my .40-90SBN, I process the brass as I want to load completed ammo. With the Sharps ammo, I tend to run all my new or fired brass thru the sizing process on the RCBS press, then use the Lee Handpress for expanding the neck, a Lee Autoprime for priming than load on the "C" Lyman press at the range for what ammo I shoot. When I load smokeless in this caliber, I generally process it all the RCBS and load about 50 rounds at a time. That leaves me plenty to load w/BP if I decide to do some in prep for a BPCR match (rarely does my schedule allow).

kentdep · Post by **kentdep** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:02 pm

The Sheriff's office that I work for has been having problems getting ammo for some time now. We ordered some Federal, .40 S&W duty ammo and frangible practice ammo (30,000 rounds of duty and 160,000 rounds of practice ammo). I got the bids and placed the order a year ago this month. We are still waiting on delivery of the duty ammo.

Jay

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:18 pm

Golly...!!!
Your department actually NEEDS 30,000 rounds of duty ammo? Wow !!!!\

Let's assume for a second that you are putting 60 rounds of duty ammo into each gun, spare mag, etc. That would mean you have 500 officers. All I can say is WOW !

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:40 pm

Modoc ED wrote:
Tycer wrote:who carries strike anywhere matches. The grocers no longer do.
They carry them at both grocery stores in my town and even at the two hardware stores. Look around your stores -- maybe in the picnic/tooth pick/paper plate/ section. Bet they have them. The reason you haven't seen them is that you probably haven't been looking for them.

The phosphorus on them is white phosphorus and you can get white phosphorus in a lot of places. Ya gotta use your imagination. Otherwise, in a pinch, you'll be sitting on a curb watching everyone passing you up.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my post above, I said that the .223 Remingtons came in a box of 250. Wrong!!! They come in boxes of 200.

EDIT:

Actually, we ought to have stuff like strike-anywhere matches on hand. Can't imagine going off to the boonies camping and the like without emergency matches, etc. on hand and in my day pack.

I have four boxes. They went to strike-on-box in all the stores here about four years ago. I found the four boxes at a sporting goods store about three years ago.

Jeff Quinn · Post by **Jeff Quinn** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:12 pm

Instead of hunting for the old style matches, I suggest we just buy more primers. You can't have too many.

Also, stock piling .22 LR ammo is cheap and easy to do. If need be, a man can do a lot of things with a Marlin 39, from social work to deer hunting. Laying in several thousand rounds is not very expensive.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:15 pm

Jeff Quinn wrote:Instead of hunting for the old style matches, I suggest we just buy more primers. You can't have too many.

Also, stock piling .22 LR ammo is cheap and easy to do. If need be, a man can do a lot of things with a Marlin 39, from social work to deer hunting. Laying in several thousand rounds is not very expensive.

That's it in a nutshell.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:38 pm

Can't have too many .22s or too much ammo for them.....

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:40 pm

I agree with Jeff as well.

22's don't take up much space and with proper storage they last almost forever.

Same with primers.

Joe