OT - Hornet vs. K-Hornet vs. .221 Fireball

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:17 am

After reading about the accuracy potential, relative quiet and efficiency of the .22 Hornet, and having seen (and heard) one fired at my club, the thought of having such a rifle is stuck in my head. I had a Remington 700 in .243, and enjoyed it for its accuracy, but it was too loud (for me) and I didn't shoot it much. The idea of a small bore that will print MOA with little powder and quiet report is attractive. I've done a bit of shopping, and $350-$600 seems to be the price range for an off-the-shelf small bore centerfire, whether it's a .22 Hornet, a .221 Fireball, .222, .223, .22-250 or .220 Swift. I have never fired or heard anyone shoot the other calibers, but am thinking a K-Hornet might be the way to go (buy a Hornet, have it reamed). But one step away is the .221, which seems to provide significant gains in velocity, easier reloading, longer brass life and probably more flexibility to hot-rod or keep mild. I just have no personal experience here and would appreciate your input.
Here is some interesting .221 Fireball load info (note the reduced load table):
http://www.accuratereloading.com/221rfb.html

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:00 am

The problem I had with the 22 hornet was price. Most manufactures put it in their standard short action rifles. CZ has a smaller action than their short action for 223 and 22 hornet .But the price was over $500 dollars. I beleive the same for ruger. The offer it in there 22 mag action. Now this year Savage has announced it's model 25 which is a small action also.I'm not sure what the price is going to be on that one. If I hand one I would want it to be nice and handy . If you get a chance pick up one of these smaller guns . It's like carring a 22 . I did that so now I'm set on one , but they are just out of my price range.

Getting back to your question, I would start with the hornet and then you can then ream it out for more power later. I think you wanted something more pleasant to shoot . So start low.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:36 am

I believe you can still get a H&R/NEF Handi-Rifle in 22 Hornet and the forum members at GBO seem to love them. I have a stainless Handi-Rifle in 223 which is a tack driver that I LOVE and for around $200 you can't go wrong.

The Savage model 40 for about $299 your next step up
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... m=93156849
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage_Model40.htm

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:42 am

I had an H&R a few years ago in Hornet and had it reamed out to K-Hornet. The accuracy inproved and it was a hoot to use. I also had a 223 model and it was also accurate.

I've had a 222 and a 222mag that were also very accurate.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:00 pm

Hmm... hadn't considered the H&R. Time to do research.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:41 pm

Is there a difference between the H&R, Rossi and New England guns? They all look very similar.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:41 pm

I bought this 1936 1st year model 70 winchester .22 hornet in about 1970. Took it shooting and found out it had been reamed to K-hornet. Rather than take it back to the private party I had bought it from I decided to keep it. I had bought it cheap, so bought dies etc. It was accuarte. I never fired it a lot. Its a heavy gun for such a light round. The gun looks fine but also has been drilled and tapped for a side scope. Its a fine gun that has been gathering dust in my safe that I just havent worked much with yet. It has the early .222 bore before they went to .223. The serial # is 4 digit.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:52 pm

Bill,

1) Do you mean it has a .223 instead of .224 bore?
2) Are you hinting you're thinking of selling?

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:53 pm

H&R and NEF are the same guns. GBO has a hole section on NEF's?H&R's and they can tell you about anything you want to know a few of us are over there. I cant give you any help with the Rossi I haven't even seen one in person.

With the Handi you have the option of having other barrels fitted to your frame. You can get a Hornet and then get new centerfire barrels in chamberings all the way up to .500 S&W Mag for the frame you have.
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/handiRifle.aspx

Bob A · Post by **Bob A** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:32 pm

I have a Handi rifle in 22 Hornet and love it. When I bought it I was planning on having it reamed to a K Hornet and maybe someday I will, but it is a tack driver now and cheap to load. 12 - 13 gr of Lil'Gun with almost any bullet you like. I'm currently using the 40gr VMax.
The KHornet may be better but I can't find anything wrong with the Hornet.

The rifle did need a trigger job. I guess that's pretty much true of most Handi rifles.

Bob A

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:35 pm

I have a BRNO (pre CZ) Fox 22 hornet with double set triggers. Real tack driver out to 200yds. For some reason groundhog population not what it used to be around here. I have to start checking other farmers hay fields this spring. Little load of IMR2227 and Hornady 35gr Vmax work great for me. Ideal round for my area quite a few houses in the area so its low noise is a deffenate advantage over 223 or 22-250 style.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 1:41 pm

My 22 hornet is a TC Contender and I have a rifle stock and a 24" barrel with a Burris 2-6 compact scope. This piece is a one hole shooter at 100 yards.

I also have several other barrels for the action, rifle & pistol length.

If cost is the object the Handi-rifle is the way to go.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:04 pm

Homefront, I am going by memery and not research. I know the 1st hornets were a thousants less. You are probley right. I belive it takes the same bullet as the .22 jet. As far as selling it, I have been fighting myself on the idea for quite awhile on many old guns I have. I have a nice collection of s&ws, colts & winchesters most bought in the 60s and through the 80s when I was single and very actively tradeing. Things happen. I retired, married a 17 year younger wife, and she isnt covered in my retirement when I die. While we are okay now, she might be in trouble when I croak. She has health problems and I dont want her to go back to work. Yet instead of selling guns I hardly ever use, I seem to be buying a few! To worsen matters, I recently had to have my nose cut off and almost died since when I blead out. A balencing act as I take blood thinner. I developed the "shakes" where I have to hold a cup with both hands! I hope it goes away when I get stronger. I have another surgery next month to rebuild the nose. If I dont get better enough to start hitting something I probley will start selling some of my collection and keep my basics and family heirlooms. If that day comes, I will get ahold of you and post others here first. Thank you all!

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:25 pm

Bill,

So sorry to hear about your difficult health situation. I'll definitely keep you and your wife in my prayers.

Sure, when you're ready, I think many here would help you out. Just let us know.

Charley

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:41 pm

Homefront, Hornet is sweet. For the powder it's good. Factory ammo tends to offer rounded bullets and not to quick. When it is reloaded it is much better. Brass life can be short mind. 221 & 222 are very good too, thats a no brainer. I don't like using the term "better" but the 221 &222 will reach 300yds pretty easy all things allowed but the cost is nearly double the powder charge! But I have been there and done that yet I don't feel under gunned with my hornet one bit. I ear holed a deer with it once- staight down

The small CZ mauser bolt is a sweet rifle, as said like using a small 22. Years ago a friend had one in222 and with 40grn B tips it was doing 3950fps(approx, long time ago) on RL7

I have seen it shoot squirls @400 odd yds. Rabbits to 400yds were dead regular and he would shoot it up to 800yds (or there abouts) for the fun of it and he would sometimes get real close! He called me once to tell me he just shot a rabbit at 600 and something paces and I have no reason to doubt him, he was not the BS type. Any 22CF is a hoot, any will please

Nath.

gimdandy · Post by **gimdandy** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:27 pm

Have the fireball in a XP100 and the 223 in a XP100R and many Handirifles , no longer any hornets . Of the three choices , considering range , accuracy , noise , recoil , it's the 221 everytime.Really think a lot of my handirifles , American made and VERY accurate , bang for the buck they far exceed my Encore's IMHO. Gotta add however that as good as the 204 is for varmit's , my favorite ( fun ) of all my varmit rifle gun/cartrides is my 336/219 ZIPPER. For varmit pistol it's the XP100 / 221

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:36 pm

I have a CZ 527 Hornet, very accurate with 35 grain Hornady vmax and Lil Gun powder. Getting close to 3000 fps, great red mist factor. Also, I have a Savage 23 in .22 Hornet, it likes the 4227 powder better and shoots almost as well as the CZ, which is pretty darn good for a rifle made in 1932. I have never had any desire to get these rechambered to KHornet, if I need more soup I just use the 22-250.

I think the Lil Gun powder is probably the best thing to happen to the Hornet cartridge, more accuracy and more velocity with less pressure signs, what's not to like?

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:42 pm

Sorry , I checked my Savage catalog and the model 25 is only in 223 and 204. I ran a cross a used handi rifle in 22 hornet last year for $150 and should of bought it right away because it didn't last long.

But another thought was to get a marlin in 218 bee .

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:50 pm

I have a Hornet in the Ruger 77/22 Hornet all weather rifle. It is the rifle that I carry daily in my Jeep Rubicon as I check out my apple and pear orchards.

I like my Ruger 77 just fine but in RETROSPECT wish it was a Ruger #1 single shot. The Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tip is the best bullet for the Hornet in my humble opinion. BUT because of the short length of the magazine the 40 grain Nosler won't seat deep enough in the case to fit the form of the bullet.

John Barsness who writes monthly for RIFLE AND HANDLOADER magazines speaks VERY highly of the Ruger #1 in .22 Hornet because of the 26" barrel and the fact that he can seat the 40grain Ballistic Tip out where it maximizes power and accuracy.

If I stepped up higher in POWER it would be to the .222 Remington. I have the .223 in my Colt HBAR but there is something nostalgic about the .222 Remington.

I love my Hornet though and I just use it as a single shot with the 40 grain Ballistic Tip, had already found that out on my own before the John Barsness article.

My thoughts on the matter!

Geoff

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:44 am

I've read that the longer neck on both the .221 and .222 make them potentially more accurate than the .223. Again, the Hornet and the .221 are both appealing from an efficiency standpoint, but maybe the .222 or .223 could be loaded down when desired to be as quiet and efficient?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:57 am

I've been thinking about the same things myself. The Hornet looks nice, but with all the available .223 and the price of .223 brass it keeps tugging at my hearstrings... or purse strings.
The price of the .223 vs the Hornet makes the Hornet ammo seem obscene. I was thinking that the .233 could always be loaded down to get to the level I wanted if Hornet velocities are needed.
If there were added benefits to the Hornet I could be convinced but we already have a Bushmaster in .223 which makes it an advantage.

I have a Ruger #1 and a Handi Rifle. While not in the same league price wise they aren't that far apart in the performance category, at least in my book.

To me the battle is .223 vs Hornet AND #1 vs the Handi rifle.

AndyM · Post by **AndyM** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:46 am

I have the Ruger 77/22 in 22 hornet. I like the hornet - I often find myself hunting groudhogs or foxes at night - close to houses. The 22 hornet does not not seem to 'crack' the same as my .223 and it is a whole lot better than the 22-250 I used to have.

I load mine with 40g Vmax or BT's with a full load of Lil'Gun usually aroung 13g. I use the SMALL pistol primer and lightly crimp all loads with a Lee Fact.Crimp Die. I put a new sear in the Ruger and all this has made my Ruger go from about 2-3" at 100 yards with factory ammo to a good sub 1" gun at 100 yards.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:02 am

But Andy, my #1 question and I really don't know... Can a .223 be loaded down to those levels with good results?

Rusty <><

johnly · Post by **johnly** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:43 pm

CZ 527 rifles deliver outstanding accuracy, I have several and they all are shooters. The choice between a 527 in 22 Hornet or 221 FB, I'd go with the 221. The 221 brass is stronger, can be formed from 223 cases in a pinch, and can be loaded down to Hornet levels or made to push 40 grain BT well beyond the ability of a Hornet or K-hornet.

John

AndyM · Post by **AndyM** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:07 pm

Rusty - yes the .223 can be loaded down to match higher end preformance. I do not think you would get great results trying to match the whole range of hornet preformance. In my opinion - the hornet really does fill the gap in preformance between the rimfires (22 and 22 mag) and the preformance of the higher veolcity .22 (223 and 22-250).

If you load your 223 lower and use 55 grain bullets your starting velocity should be comparable to a hornet using 35 or 40 grain bullets at a max load of Lil'Gun. My hornet has touches the 3000 fps mark - the 223 with heavier bullets start about there.

Paco has an article all about the hornet and talks about cast bullet use, something I have never tried.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:11 pm

That's a pretty good answer.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:02 pm

Thanks Andy, The thing that makes me want to avoid the Hornet is that I've heard it is a bear to try to reload. I was thinking that the .223 would reload easier. I guess the Hornet might be more versatile though if I didn't need the higher end velocities the .223 can offer.

Rusty <><

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:09 pm

Rusty, I would'nt say it 's a bear to reload. It's bit fiddly for fat fingers but ok

Nath.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:14 pm

I have a .223 Rem and a .22 Hornet and a .218 Bee (levergun might be available there

) and have loaded for the .221 (have dies still). You can load the big cases down to .22 WRFM levels but you can't load the little cases up. Still and all, I'd stick with the .22 Hornet standard OR go with the .218 Bee. The TC Contender is another option, too. Not as inexpensive as the Handi but lighter and with a better trigger.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:34 am

Here ya go Homefront
[img][img]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/ ... Hntfox.jpg[/img]
Just took this this morning. My neighbor said there was one about so got up early and took a stroll.
97 paces, he was in the stubble field in the background. I shot from the post in the frame and past the oaks. Standard hornet, case full of H4227 and a B tip of 40gr.
He was quartering to me some showing his left shoulder, I aimed for back of his shoulder and hit spot on. He ran to the left about 30yds and piled up.
As I have said before in hornet the super explosive bullets tend to penertrate better at hornet speeds, he had a nice in and out and bled well.
It is usefull if you want to harvest small game, something that can get messey with the larger cases!
Nath.[/img]

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:34 am

Iv always wonted a 22 k-hornet for no other reason than I like them
one of my mates down south uses a bruno 22 k-hornet on deer
works great for him but shot placements important

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:22 pm

Nath,

Great picture and congrats on the fine results sir!

Your load is almost identical to my favorite load but I use IMR4227 with the Nosler Ballistic tip.

Great thing about the Hornet is that the whole country side didn't even know there was a shot and maybe a fox was down. Same way sometimes when I need to eliminate some stray dogs that are a nuisance.

Beautiful country that you live in over there! Just wish they were kinder to you guys regarding firearms laws!

Geoff

Wes · Post by **Wes** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:19 am

I've had all 3 of those choices. I loved my hornet the best, but as was talked about earlier, to keep my magazine working on the 77/22 I used the 35 gr Hornady. It shot real well with IMR4227 and H110. The key to it was getting a set of Hornady ND dies. The seater in this will very gently guide flatbased bullets down the neck without a bunch of runout.
The gun I still have and use a lot is a CZ527 in 221 FB. Very nice little rifle. It will outshoot the hornet, but is louder. The single set trigger is nice. Had to put an aftermarket on the Ruger.
The 223's I've owned have been real good rifles, but as loud as they are you might as well get a 22-250 if noise is not an issue. Quite a little more reach.
I traded the Hornet for a M88 308 in good shape. I really like the 88.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:29 am

I have a KHornet barrel for my Thompson TCR. My most aggravating rifle because I can't make it shoot, and I've certainly tried a large number of loads. Probably something wrong with the chamber or barrel (the other barrels shoot fine).

The KHornet case is high on the cute factor though.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:51 am

Paul,
I had a T/C Super 14 in .30-30 years ago. It was great until I tired to shoot Federal Factory stuff in it. Upon firing the action was VERY hard to open and required a lot of work. The primers were flatened and some of them had started to flow into the firing pin hole. I sent some of the cases back to Federal They told me the chamber was rough. It seemed strange to me at the time because Remington and Winchester factory stuff shot fine. years later I found out that a lot of people actually do have rough chambers in their T/C's

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:12 pm

Cheers Geof, without looking I think I use 12g of H4227.
Would you happen to know how fast yours is in what barrel and how much powder? It may give me a ball park figure.
Nath.

86er · Post by **86er** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:46 pm

I use a .221 Fireball a lot at the ranch. The bullets never go through anything - and sometimes that is a consideration. When taking head shots, the range isn't critical out to 170 yards or so since it shoots so flat. I just hold dead on. The Remington Premier brand has been used to take rams, deer and antelope with heart/lung shots. I've shot hogs, watusi and goats with head shots. There is no recoil. My guns are CZ's - one with a tapered 19" barrel and one with a 26" medium weight barrel.

I can't say the .221 Fireball is better than the others you've mentioned because I dont have any experience with them. I like the .221 for specific applications and think it would be good on coyotes, varmints and groundhogs too.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Excellent input - thanks to all for the replies.

I've decided to go with the CZ 527 in .204 Ruger. Just sounds too darned exciting not to try! I know, it won't be all that quiet, but I hope to be around long enough to someday get a Hornet as well.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:52 pm

Good for you Homefront, put some good glass on that and it 'll reach out some thats a certain

Nath.

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:59 pm

Thanks, Nath.

Any suggestions for a good scope? I'm thinking something 4-16x might be about right.

Dave James · Post by **Dave James** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:03 pm

Best Hornet I own is the Ruger-3 in it, not really too heavy and shoots very well with the 45 grain load. Only problem with it I have is FAT FINGERS, when it comes time to reloading the brass

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 6:21 pm

Here's a little "candy" for those who love their hornets......

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/ ... 276.0.html

Nothing has authority like a well placed bullet.

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:07 pm

Nath,

Wish I could do better for you. I still don't own a chronograph, no excuse though!! The Sierra book shows my load of 11.6gr of IMR 4227 with a 40 grain bullet getting 2800fps. So I sure think my Nosler Ballistic tip would be very close to this number. This is with the 24" barrel.

I really pay attention to what John Barsness says in Handloader and Rifle magazines that come out every other month. Barsness sure loves his 26" barrel Ruger #1 in the Hornet with the 40grain Ballistic Tip. If I can find his article on the Hornet I'll update you with more info. I do know this, I quit trying to "magnumize" the Hornet and the 11.6 grain load of IMR4227 works great, good accuracy, and no sticky extraction with adequate power! I love my Hornet, that is why it rides every day in my Jeep Rubicon, ready for whatever we come up against!!!

All the best!

Geoff

Bullard4075 · Post by **Bullard4075** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:40 am

Other than a mag problem my Ruger is great in the Hornet. About any bullet with LIL-GUN is a tackdriver.

Does anyone but me have trouble with the magazines in the Hornet chambering. I have three mags and all three refuse to SMOOTHLY feed.
What am I doing wrong ??

GEOFF · Post by **GEOFF** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:14 am

Bullard,

I only have 2 magazines for my Ruger 77/22 Hornet and like you I have had trouble with both of them. First I blamed it on just slightly over length cartridges but later ruled that out as the cause.

Then I wondered if since they rode around in my work truck with lots of dust and abuse that maybe dirt was the cause. THIS IS NOT THE NORMAL RUGER WORK IN ANY CONDITION TYPE MAGAZINE!!! I'm still asking myself if I'M the one doing something wrong. That is another reason that I just went to seating the Nosler 40gr. BTip out long and using her as a single shot. Nice rifle other than my own magazine problems.

Geoff

homefront · Post by **homefront** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:26 am

I don't own a Ruger, but on another forum I read of a similar problem with a run of CZ Hornets. Turns out the magazine feed lips needed to be smoothed with a stone where the case rides against them.

OT - Hornet vs. K-Hornet vs. .221 Fireball

OT - Hornet vs. K-Hornet vs. .221 Fireball

The Hornet in the Ruger 77/22