Should I even try BP in my leverguns?

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:53 pm

I have poped a few in my '73 rifle. I'm interested in shooting a few from my 1895 Marlin Cowboy 45-70. I know it's fun, just wondering if it's worth the mess and if it's harmful in the long run. I've heard that that is not as big a problem as the old days, as the old primers were the real culprit back then.
I'd like these guns to be arround for several generation beyond me. By the way they are all new. Ubertis, Winchesters, Marlins, Savage.

Owen

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:55 pm

I do shoot BP, but mostly in my repro. Sharps

Owen

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:07 pm

Why Not?? change the lube on cast bullets for B.P and go for it. just clean them up Good.

.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:09 pm

I had fun shooting black in my 86 and Colt Single Action. I never used anything but hot tap water on a series of patchs to clean up, then some dry patches to get the metal dry. After they were completely dry I'd oil them. I never took either apart, was no need to. I threw the cases in a pot of water on the stove on low while cleaning the gun, then drained them and laid them on a towel mouths down to dry, then loaded them when I had time. Never cleaned cases, they got dark but it didnt seem to hurt them any.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Why not? I've even used it in my .357 Rossi just for (lack of) Kicks...

JB · Post by JB » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:22 pm

I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:11 pm

Sure why not? What would be the difference between a levergun and any other gun fired with bp?
Don't forget to clean the cases.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm

I do from time to time. The first couple of times I went to the BP area to shoot, some of the "regulars" told me I couldn't shoot on that range, cuz it was BP only. I ignored them and continued to set up.

Now me being me, I waited until one of the annointed went to talk to the RO about getting me moved, if not removed from the range entirely for not paying attention to them. About the time the RO got there I fired off a round. Imagine his surprise when this big ole cloud of smoke came rolling out the end of the barrel.

I guess I could have been nicer and told the self appointed gods of the BP range I was shooting PB loads, but they just set me off with their attitude. They ignore me these days, wihich is just fine with me.

As to clean up, it's no more difficult than any other repeating firearm that shoots BP. Heck, I sometimes think it's easier to clean BP than smokeless. Well, at least until my wife catches me putting my BP pistols in the dishwasher.

Hey, it cleans and dries them.

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:59 pm

I've been getting the idea because some seem to hint that some guns actually shoot more accurate with BP. Is that true?

Owen

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:45 pm

Some do some don't. If you get everything to working well with a blackpowder load you'll get something between 2 and 5 fps shot to shot variation, sometimes maybe as much as ten... Smokeless loads seldom get that tight.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:12 pm

It opens up a whole new world in our game. After shooting smokeless only for over 40 years, I have been playing with it recently. Due to my background I had no issues from the git-go in order to make my leverguns shoot accurately.

The only downfall is that it takes longer to load the ammo and you must bring a container of some sort filled with Simple Green--whatever---to drop your fired cases in. Clean up of the guns is just as easy--but a little different.

I also recently started to use it in silhouette competition. Here's vid of me shooting an original 1892 SRC in 38-40 using black. Up until this point, before the match, I don't think I ever fired more than 50 blackpowder cartridge rounds and about 30 of those were in getting this src sighted in.

The Pa. silhouette State Championship is next month and yep, for pistol cartridge, the '92 loaded with black will be with me.-------------Sixgun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gs6LvI6yZU

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:22 pm

.45colt wrote:Why Not?? change the lube on cast bullets for B.P and go for it. just clean them up Good. .

[dumb question mode on]

Why does the lube have to be different...???

[/dumb question mode off]

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:47 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
.45colt wrote:Why Not?? change the lube on cast bullets for B.P and go for it. just clean them up Good. .
[dumb question mode on]

Why does the lube have to be different...???

[/dumb question mode off]

Petroleum-based lubes can (but don't always) react badly with BP creating a crud that makes cosmoline look easy to remove...

It's easiest to be safe & use an "organic" lube...

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:01 am

Black powder loads make more heat than smokeless. The "crayola" lube that most cast bullet makers use just won't cut the extra heat. Also, there must be sufficient lube to make it to the end of your barrel. SPG is the black powder shooter's lube of choice but you can make your own. I use toilet bowl waxes and olive oil melted in an old percolator.

I have been known to put a "cookie" of my lube under a normally lubed bullet just to be able to use them up. I shoot little of anything but black.

Don't try to clean up with one of those "black powder solvents". It's been my experience they seldom work and I have seen barrels ruined after being let stand after using them. Hot water is all that's necessary though I like Ballistol mixed 10:1 to clean with and for water displacing/lube after cleaning.

Cases should be deprimed before washing. Detergent and HOT water. Don't let them lie around for very long either, corrosion can quickly weaken your brass. I have used the jug of water/degreaser to drop cases in during a match but now days just wait until evening to get them soaking.

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:33 am

I shoot black in my uberti 66 and my Turnbull 92. Both clean up just fine. I believe that a full case load of FFG and the 44-40 chambering leads to very little to no blowback in the action.

Richardx · Post by **Richardx** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:32 am

Yes, it adds to the fun! I shoot it in SAA's, NM Vaqueros ss, '73 Repro, '92 repro ss, '97 12 ga. repro, 12 ga. twice barrel carbine.

The Holy Black actually cleaned the smokeless stain off the front of the cylinders, (my wife is P.O. because my pistols look better than hers...she shoots the new powder).

My '86 clone in 45/70 shoots better with Unique--go figure.

Just carry a jar of water with dish washing liquid in it to drop your empties in and they will start the cleaning process on their own.

Hot water, the hotter the better, will clean the guns well, then just lube 'em up.

O.T. hot water cleaned a out a ton of copper out of my Garand when I got it.

Richard X

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:05 am

JB wrote:I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Its not the same really. A Muzzleloader gets the fouling all over the place. A levergun shouldnt have ANY fouling except in the bore, nothing should get in the action at all. Thats why we see so many 100+ year old leverguns in good shape other than the bore. If the fouling got into the actions like it does the bore not many of them would still be around. I think thats why we see much fewer old BP revolvers in servicable shape, the fouling in them would get into the action pretty regular.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:10 am

Leverdude wrote:
JB wrote:I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Its not the same really. A Muzzleloader gets the fouling all over the place. A levergun shouldnt have ANY fouling except in the bore, nothing should get in the action at all. Thats why we see so many 100+ year old leverguns in good shape other than the bore. If the fouling got into the actions like it does the bore not many of them would still be around. I think thats why we see much fewer old BP revolvers in servicable shape, the fouling in them would get into the action pretty regular.

Pretty much. It's also why I DON'T shoot much BP in my .357 Rossi... because I've found there is still a fair amount of gas leakage around the cartridge and into the action with modern .357 brass. Maybe it's just too thick to seal properly with only 16gr BP...

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:09 pm

My Uberti 357 absolutely loves 38 spl rounds loaded up with 777. I shot my Rossi 357 today with 777 and it register as very consistant on the Chrony, however, I find cowboy load with universal and some TP wadding is more accurate.

For cleaning, I saw a geezer who had pre moistened patches for BP cleaning. He said that's all he used.

I don't take a chance. I soak my pisols and hose warm water through my rifles. Then, I use a water displacing oil on everything. I'm trying Blaster from Tractor Supply because it claims not to evaporate like WD40.

If I have to use WD40, I follow it up with gun scrubber to remove it after it has removed the water, then I wipe every part down with Remoil.

I'm one of those guys who learned shooting in the army, so I break down the guns completely to clean after every shoot. Takes hours, but I like it.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:06 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
Leverdude wrote:
JB wrote:I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Its not the same really. A Muzzleloader gets the fouling all over the place. A levergun shouldnt have ANY fouling except in the bore, nothing should get in the action at all. Thats why we see so many 100+ year old leverguns in good shape other than the bore. If the fouling got into the actions like it does the bore not many of them would still be around. I think thats why we see much fewer old BP revolvers in servicable shape, the fouling in them would get into the action pretty regular.
Pretty much. It's also why I DON'T shoot much BP in my .357 Rossi... because I've found there is still a fair amount of gas leakage around the cartridge and into the action with modern .357 brass. Maybe it's just too thick to seal properly with only 16gr BP...

Nothing against BP as such but my conclusion was the same , some will get back in the action . And I'm not overly happy about what I'll have to do to "try" and clean it all out . If I don't shoot it I ain't gotta worry with it !

To each his own , if a person wants to do it thats great . Just not in any of my rifles .

Now in a couple period ML's I have sure . But thats about it for me .

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:02 pm

Nope, don't do it.

NOT only will you begin consuming precious supplies of this rare and profoundly moving substance, but you will become addicted and be unable to stop.

You will begin selling off your smokeless only cartridge guns, or being experimenting with things like 3F in your .45ACP and a 1911. That quickly leads to... well... if not complete insanity, then a willingness to sell your 1911s so you can buy more period correct BP revolvers. And I don't mean more as in "qualitative"... I mean more as in "quantitative". The smell of burned sulphur and BP cleaning agents (hot water), will begin to erode the very fibre of your marriage vows. Your wife will begin to understand the limits of that "or worse" phrase, and begin to question her resolve. Your childrren will be become mere encumberances to another trip to the range; their school needs become secondary... to your acquisition of first an 1860 Henry, then a Spencer, oh, gee... look! Now there's a cartridge available in the 1876 reproductions! After you have wrung out everything you can in a .45-70 1886 Winchester, you start looking longingly at the .45-90, then the .45-110 and -120. Then you discover that they produced original in a couple of FIFTY calibers. At about the time that a fourth mortgage is applied for, you wife will have decided that "enough is enough", and filed for divorce.

No, don't shoot BP thru any of your leverguns, even once! All of the above WILL happen.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:19 pm

Griff wrote:Nope, don't do it. NOT only will you begin consuming precious supplies of this rare and profoundly moving substance, but you will become addicted and be unable to stop.

You will begin selling off your smokeless only cartridge guns, or being experimenting with things like 3F in your .45ACP and a 1911. That quickly leads to... well... if not complete insanity, then a willingness to sell your 1911s so you can buy more period correct BP revolvers. And I don't mean more as in "qualitative"... I mean more as in "quantitative". The smell of burned sulphur and BP cleaning agents (hot water), will begin to erode the very fibre of your marriage vows. Your wife will begin to understand the limits of that "or worse" phrase, and begin to question her resolve. Your childrren will be become mere encumberances to another trip to the range; their school needs become secondary... to your acquisition of first an 1860 Henry, then a Spencer, oh, gee... look! Now there's a cartridge available in the 1876 reproductions! After you have wrung out everything you can in a .45-70 1886 Winchester, you start looking longingly at the .45-90, then the .45-110 and -120. Then you discover that they produced original in a couple of FIFTY calibers. At about the time that a fourth mortgage is applied for, you wife will have decided that "enough is enough", and filed for divorce.

No, don't shoot BP thru any of your leverguns, even once! All of the above WILL happen.

N

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:20 pm

I can't wait.

Owen

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:07 am

Griff wrote:Nope, don't do it. NOT only will you begin consuming precious supplies of this rare and profoundly moving substance, but you will become addicted and be unable to stop.

You will begin selling off your smokeless only cartridge guns, or being experimenting with things like 3F in your .45ACP and a 1911. ...

No, don't shoot BP thru any of your leverguns, even once! All of the above WILL happen.

Hush now. I have NEVER... well, almost never semi regularly

... shot 4F

in my 1911... (works better than 3F)

...

And shooting BP is yet another of those "little" reasons I like Stainless Steel guns. Cleanup with boiling water is so much easier when you don't have to worry about rust as much...

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:43 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
Leverdude wrote:
JB wrote:I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Its not the same really. A Muzzleloader gets the fouling all over the place. A levergun shouldnt have ANY fouling except in the bore, nothing should get in the action at all. Thats why we see so many 100+ year old leverguns in good shape other than the bore. If the fouling got into the actions like it does the bore not many of them would still be around. I think thats why we see much fewer old BP revolvers in servicable shape, the fouling in them would get into the action pretty regular.
Pretty much. It's also why I DON'T shoot much BP in my .357 Rossi... because I've found there is still a fair amount of gas leakage around the cartridge and into the action with modern .357 brass. Maybe it's just too thick to seal properly with only 16gr BP...

Your probably right about the brass. Not only the case thickness but straight wall. Originally these guns used very thin brass bottleneck rounds that sealed up better. Maybe another reason why nobody chambered 45 colt in a levergun until recently, though 45 brass is pretty thin too.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:23 pm

Leverdude wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:
Leverdude wrote:
JB wrote:I wouldn't shoot black powder in my smokeless lever guns. I clean my blackpowder guns religiously, but it's just about impossible to not get "some" corrosion problems even if miniscule.

Its not the same really. A Muzzleloader gets the fouling all over the place. A levergun shouldnt have ANY fouling except in the bore, nothing should get in the action at all. Thats why we see so many 100+ year old leverguns in good shape other than the bore. If the fouling got into the actions like it does the bore not many of them would still be around. I think thats why we see much fewer old BP revolvers in servicable shape, the fouling in them would get into the action pretty regular.
Pretty much. It's also why I DON'T shoot much BP in my .357 Rossi... because I've found there is still a fair amount of gas leakage around the cartridge and into the action with modern .357 brass. Maybe it's just too thick to seal properly with only 16gr BP...

Your probably right about the brass. Not only the case thickness but straight wall. Originally these guns used very thin brass bottleneck rounds that sealed up better. Maybe another reason why nobody chambered 45 colt in a levergun until recently, though 45 brass is pretty thin too.

Yeah, I've found that the best way to get anything close to a seal with .357 BP is to use non-nickled brass and 4F instead of 3F.

Fortunately I have many, many pounds of 4F...

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:29 pm

My grandson and I shot BP 45 Colt tonight. It was fun. I like the sound, it's different. seemed accurate. It was eiser to clean than I thought it would be.

Owen

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:39 pm

It's a blast

ain't it.
Did you notice how the entire gun heats up more than when shooting smokeless?

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:14 pm

Don McDowell wrote:It's a blast ain't it.
Did you notice how the entire gun heats up more than when shooting smokeless?

Perhaps this is where the saying "Happiness is a warm gun" came from.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:37 pm

I don't have any problem with British Petroleum, but I don't use their products on my guns - too many good local products out there.

Oly

hightime · Post by **hightime** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:16 pm

BP....LOL!

Yes, that's the first think youg Jake said. The barrel is hot.

Owen

Should I even try BP in my leverguns?

Should I even try BP in my leverguns?

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