What's with all of the recent "TACTICAL" stuff???

Stan in SC · Post by **Stan in SC** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:50 am

In the past couple of years I have seen a big swing in firearms to a "TACTICAL" oriented bent.
This seems stupid to me.What's with "TACTICAL"?I have no use for tactical features on my rifles/handguns.I am not a SWAT sniper nor do I ever expect to be placed in a position of needing all of the features they have come up with and which have been well received evidently by the buying public.
Even Mossberg,old staid steady Mossberg,has come up with,of all things,a tactical lever action which features a four position AR style butt stock and a forearm which also looks like it came off an AR.
Are a lot of people expecting some type of political unrest and they are going to play a part in it?I think there's too darn many people playing Call of Duty and Mortal Combat who need to get their feet back on firm sane ground.Hello!If someone is shooting at you and they connect you DON'T get to go to level three.You are dead D.E.A.D.
I guess I am just an old guy who does not understand.I prefer iron sights and lever actions MADE PRIOR TO 1964.

Oh yeah,while I am on this type of subject I will include my indicated high level of distaste for all of this ZOMBIE junk.Even Hornady has come out with ZOMBIE ammo.
Maybe I just don't watch enough movies.

Stan in SC

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:22 am

But Stan, all that stuff is just SOOOO cool!!!!!

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:28 am

Cheaper to build than say a nice beautiful sxs or O/U shotgun, that no manufactorer in USA seems to have the ability to make. Good grief, we have even forgot how to make leveractions. If you buy a new Reminton-Marlin, most likely, you will have to send to a good lever smith to even get it to a state that was "factory" 30 years ago.

Tactical is where the profit is.

I have a few tacticals, a colt 1911A1, and a Springfield XD sub-compact.Oh, and a Ka-Bar or two. If those are defined as tactical.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:29 am

Stan in SC wrote:...I think there's too darn many people playing Call of Duty and Mortal Combat who need to get their feet back on firm sane ground.Hello!If someone is shooting at you and they connect you DON'T get to go to level three.You are dead D.E.A.D. ...

Pertinent if somewhat crude... (Linked Image has words that are not appropriate for this forum...)

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:39 am

"Tactical" means it costs more.

BobSki · Post by **BobSki** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:39 am

I think it is just a matter of fashion and personal taste. I like all sorts of firearms. I enjoy shooting:

My Anschutz 1813 for precision target shooting,
My CZ452 Varmint (My rabbit gun)
My CMMG AR15 (practical rifle shooting)
My Beretta DT10 (clay pigeon shooting)
and last but not least I am really looking forward to taking delivery of my Rossi 92 Lever Action .357 general plinking and informal competition target shooting.

I can see the attraction of all firearms and while YOU may like a particular type of firearm and dislike the AR platform, I'm sure there will be people who have completely the opposite view, they will LOVE the AR platform and maybe dislike the old fashioned firearms.

Why rant about somebody elses pleasure, surely a love of firearms is what is common between recreational shooters and should be celebrated. There is room enough for everyone.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:47 am

Different strokes for different folks, same with Religion, politics, woman.
Some like a lot of gadgets and frill some don`t.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:51 am

I think everyone should have a Main Battle Rifle - be it a Garand, M14, FAL/HK whatever.

Tacticool is all about style over substance. A good MBR platform doesn't have to look like a ninja toy.

Stan in SC · Post by **Stan in SC** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:52 am

Bob ski,
Point well made and taken to heart.I guess it's that I don't see all this stuff as important or useful.I guess there are others who do.

Stan in SC

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:46 am

Stan in SC,
I agree with you 100%.

OI,
I do, but when TSHTF right after TEOTWAWKI, there will be plenty of tactical battle rifles to choose from .....

All this plastic junk on our guns is no different than plastic in sewing machines, cars, and everything else. It's CHEAP to manufacturer and can be sold for tons of money. AND, MOST IMPORTANT, it's not durable, and wont last. So you have to replace it sooner than later.

Steel and wood, or at least metal is my preferred choice.

JMNSHO

Joe

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:20 am

I always wanted one, to see what the attraction was, so I bought one. Is it fun, YES! Is it fairly cheap to shoot, YES! Would I sell it off before one of my 39A's, YES!

This definitely is not what I would consider "TACTICOOL". I basically just changed the butt stock, for a better cheek weld, and added a quality piece of glass.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:24 am

Nice rifle jdad, for those that are wondering about the front sight and the scope isn`t weird how you can`t even see it when looking through the scope.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Pitchy wrote:Nice rifle jdad, for those that are wondering about the front sight and the scope isn`t weird how you can`t even see it when looking through the scope.

The scope is a 1x5 and it does perfectly co-witness the front post, on 1x.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:46 am

Stan in SC wrote:In the past couple of years I have seen a big swing in firearms to a "TACTICAL" oriented bent.
This seems stupid to me.What's with "TACTICAL"?

IMO

1) There's a couple of wars going on, and with all that testosterone floatin' around in the air and soakin' into the ground, it's fairly expected that tough guys real and imagined should glorify the tools of war and death. (Now, if only there were an actual enemy...

)

2) A new generation of men coming back from soldiering in harm's way want to have familiar tools in their hands.

3) The market is flooded with the stuff

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:05 pm

All the tactical stuff reminds me of the scene in "BIG JAKE" where John Wayne asks his son Patrick aboout the fancy Bergman 1911 he is carrying.

Big Jake says You're almost fast enough to get that thing out before some gentleman with an old fashioned sixgun comes along and blows a hole in you.

It has always galled me when someone tries to use a fancy gadget and new technology to take the place of what should be a basic skill.

QUIT BUYING ALL THE FANCY GEEGAWS, SPEND THE MONEY ON AMMO AND LEARN TO SHOOT! rant off... sorry.

Alvin C. York captured 132 of German soldiers using a 1903 Springfield rifle because he could shoot.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:09 pm

jdad wrote:
Pitchy wrote:Nice rifle jdad, for those that are wondering about the front sight and the scope isn`t weird how you can`t even see it when looking through the scope.

The scope is a 1x5 and it does perfectly co-witness the front post, on 1x.

Hope ya didn`t misunderstand what i said jdad, some people wonder how you can mount a scope on a rail with the high front sight on the gun.
It`s been my experiance that you can`t see the front sight so it doesn`t interfere at all.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:19 pm

Pitchy wrote:
jdad wrote:
Pitchy wrote:Nice rifle jdad, for those that are wondering about the front sight and the scope isn`t weird how you can`t even see it when looking through the scope.

The scope is a 1x5 and it does perfectly co-witness the front post, on 1x.
Hope ya didn`t misunderstand what i said jdad, some people wonder how you can mount a scope on a rail with the high front sight on the gun.
It`s been my experiance that you can`t see the front sight so it doesn`t interfere at all.

I probably should have added that once you exceed 1x that the front sight does vanish.

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:29 pm

I suspect that the term "tactical" means so many different things to different people that it it would be hard to be real dogmatic about it. In 1860, the Henry was state-of-the-art "tactical," but time and technology have rendered it a tough sell for infantry use in 2012. A case could be made that a Winchester 1894 SRC with an Aimpoint, SureFire light and a single point web sling having an HK-style hook would be "tactical."

I'm turned off by lever guns with too much EBR influence, but I don't see anything wrong with some sections of picatinny rail here and there for the aforementioned optic/light/gizmo as long as it doesn't turn the gun into a clumsy cheese grater or make it look like a futuristic "bad-azz" prop from some game or movie. The XS Lever Rail is - to my mind - a great accessory for a Marlin, while a collapsible stock and a square foot of rail area would qualify as a marketing gimmick. But that's just me.

I don't particularly like ARs, but as someone already mentioned, there are really good ones made here in the US (BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske...) that not only cost less than a lever gun when of proportionate quality, but are better tools for certain applications.

(cough, cough)

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:46 pm

Hey, jdad. Been thinking of scoping mine. What scope and mount are you using? And, although I already have a set of folding rear sights, what brand are yours?

Now to keep on topic, "tactical" is just trendy wording, mostly because a lot of folks don't really understand the proper definition of the term. Me, I like to confuse folks. When they ask about a "tactical" feature, I give them a serious deadpan and tell them it's not "tactical", it's even more cool/super secret, it's a "strategic feature". I've actually had a couple of Rambo wannabes get all impressed. Sad some kids today don't know how to use a dictionary.

Stan in SC · Post by **Stan in SC** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:16 pm

Just to clarify.I do own and shoot an AR.I like it.The only thing I have put on it is a scope.I don't consider it tactical by any means.It is a good shooter and very accurate.
Incidentally my front sight does not appear in my scope either.

Stan in SC

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:29 pm

Pitchy wrote:Different strokes for different folks, same with Religion, politics, women. Some like a lot of gadgets and frill some don`t.

That pretty well sums it up.

The funny thing about "Tacti-Cool" stuff is that so much of it is worthless and fragile, even (or especially) if one really did need 'combat' function. If you dropped most of the 'tacti-cool' guns people buy on a gravel or concrete floor from four feet, they wouldn't be very tactical afterwards, but you CAN do that to a real 'MilSpec' gun and no harm done.

Flash suppressors ARE useful, although mostly to protect the muzzle of a gun used when climbing or ducking under vines and briars. 'MilSpec' peep sights ARE useful, because they are rugged and adjust repeatably. For me, even 'Light Rails' are useful on some guns - my 'Night Scout' levergun may look funny, but it enables me to take a shot at a fleeing possum outside the chicken-coop at night more safely and accurately, as does the Laser/Holosight combination sight.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=31062

I know it wouldn't survive the 4-foot-drop-test though, whereas my Garand most likely would.

But having endless rails and doo-dads, even on an AR-15, seems like overkill, how many different lights and lasers can you use on one gun...? I suppose the multiple rails do give you more choices of attachment points, but it would be more attractive to me if there were just screw holes in the forend on those AR's and you could mount short rails just where you wanted them. That's just my own brand of aesthetic preferences though - some actually just like the looks of all the rails and stuff, even if they're not putting any accessories on them.

I think the other funny thing is that while my 'Night Scout' is the gun I 'grab-and-go' with if I hear barking from the goat pen or squawking in the chicken house, and would actually be the one I'd grab if foolish enough to go outside (vs. call the cops) if I suspected a two-legged problem were going on, if I were heading into known 'combat' like the armageddon/zombie situations some folks think are going to happen any day now - I'd probably grab a Garand, and a 1911 pistol, with the only modern 'tactical' feature being I'd definitely have a 'wide-body' double-stack 1911 (I have long fingers and the grip fits me better than a single stack, so I see no point in having a single-stack 1911 - for me).

Stan in SC wrote:I am not a SWAT sniper nor do I ever expect to be placed in a position of needing all of the features they have come up with and which have been well received evidently by the buying public.

I have the same sentiment about several 'firearms' items...

"Backup iron sights" - it just happens that the farthest I ever hunt from my home is a few hundred yards, so if by some remote chance I destroy a scope while shooting, I'll just walk home and get another gun/scope. I'm not hunting a $5,000-auction-win bighorn sheep, just one of the many whitetail or coyotes or groundhogs or feral dogs/cats that are around, so if the scope failure "costs me the hunt", I'll manage not to cry.

"It's gotta be a Leupold" - pretty much same as above. Yep, I like Leupold scopes, and IF I were in a combat/tactical or hunt-of-a-lifetime situation, I'd likely be using one (or one of their high-end competitors), but I've never had a Burris, Redfield, Weaver, or Tasco scope fail me, and I can afford to put scopes on four or five rifles instead of one, by using them. I've even used BSA scopes without much problem, though I typically use them for plinker rimfires only.

I guess all our various wants and likes and dislikes is a GOOD thing - it keeps the gunmakers busy and hopefully in business, meeting our needs, real and imagined...

Bullard4075 · Post by **Bullard4075** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:46 pm

"Now to keep on topic, "tactical" is just trendy wording, mostly because a lot of folks don't really understand the proper definition of the term. Me, I like to confuse folks. When they ask about a "tactical" feature, I give them a serious deadpan and tell them it's not "tactical", it's even more cool/super secret, it's a "strategic feature". I've actually had a couple of Rambo wannabes get all impressed. Sad some kids today don't know how to use a dictionary."

+1
I get Rambo wannabes all the time in the store looking for this "tactical" or that "tactical" widget.
Sometimes they just ask where the "tactical" parts are.
They don't know what tactical is.
I just lump them in with the 500 yard deer shooters and the 1000 yard elk shooters.
If someone tells me they shot their deer at 500 yards .............. they didn't.
If someone tells me they shot their elk at 1000 yards .............. they didn't.
If they say they are a sniper..................they weren't.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:02 pm

Stan in SC wrote:Just to clarify.I do own and shoot an AR.I like it.The only thing I have put on it is a scope.I don't consider it tactical by any means.It is a good shooter and very accurate.
Incidentally my front sight does not appear in my scope either.

Stan in SC

Need to ask yourself why do people use tactical methods????
Let's say (in the home for HD)say for your spouse!
Well, sure a handgun is an option(what if that isn't an option)sure, you could have her use a 20ga whatever type shotgun.
Will it work------yep

But how bout a very small/light high powered weapon with a 10rd/20rd mag virtually no kick and equipped with a laser.
An awesome weapon that has high shot count/easy to aim and shoot however its held just pull trigger where little dot is etc.

Now, How bout being say in the woods where a close encounter of a bad kind(human or animal)could occur in a split second but you want the availability of having that weapon fired on target less than 1 second.(carrying a small carbine tactical style)is where it is at when you might have a need using both your arms/hands doing whatever need be prior to something going down.

Once I started doing this(I thought to myself)what took me so long????

It's also been proven that with a proper rigged tactical setup even if a (perpetrator does get to you before that one second)the chances while in the fight of him succeeding in obtaining your weapon and using it against you is drastically diminished.

People want it all----hands free/instant access to weapon/and the weapon to not easily be dislodged from its carrier.

Sure, for those wanting just a gun slung on their back,don't need it fast/or carrying it in hand when that hand isn't needed for another reason(should work ok)but if there are better options(why not)

Come up to my place(can't have your handgun)walk my 105lb dog/toting a cased chainsaw in the other hand and looking for big bears all over(you will see why)tactical works

And besides when you are out there all camo'd up /touting a hardcore black high cap weapon tactical style you feel all bad a## and
you think you are the biggest boar in the woods

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:09 pm

GI Joeism, adventures in the mind for those who likely never adventured this way in the flesh. Personally I think the Model 92 and clones is the real deal there or the Marlin 1894C and the like.

If you go to the range here in the afternoon that is 80%+ of what you will see. Rate of fire seems to be the object. Actually hitting the target is way behind.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:16 pm

My idea of tactical:

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:29 pm

As for the recent explosion of tactical "stuff"... I believe it's like a fellar and I were talking yesterday about custom vehicles and such. He's a bike builder, and we were talking about his p/u and my big truck (in a shop that repairs trailers/trucks).

It's a lack of imagination in many cases. They see something someone else has... and wanna emulate or copy that. Go to the H-D shop and buy a piece of chrome something or other, vs. something original... something no one else has. Don't get me wrong, sometimes that scope or air filter cover has a practical purpose that's better or improved over the factory unit, but... just how many "iron cross" air filter covers do you have to see before one realizes that one's just part of the crowd... and if you can't see that you're part of the crowd... more's the pity.

When you have a definition of "need" based on what other folks have vs "need" based on purpose, you have an explosion of "tacticool"! Just my 2¢.

BobSki · Post by **BobSki** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:40 pm

Stan in SC wrote:Bob ski,
Point well made and taken to heart.I guess it's that I don't see all this stuff as important or useful.I guess there are others who do.

Stan in SC

No worries Stan. I don't see it as important or particularly useful either but I love the look and feel of my AR15 and thoroughly enjoy the ownership of it, as I do each one of the rifles I chose to buy, each for their own reasons and uses.

I have never particularly wanted to own a Black Powder rifle and I don't see them as particularly important or useful for anything much but boy do the guys at the club enjoy shooting theirs, so good luck to 'em I say.......

except .............

when I'm sat there with ringing in my ears from the loud explosion and waiting for the smoke to clear from the range so I can see my target again.

All the best bud
BobSki

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:41 pm

jeepnik wrote:Hey, jdad. Been thinking of scoping mine. What scope and mount are you using? And, although I already have a set of folding rear sights, what brand are yours?

.

It's a Weaver 1-5 Tactical, in case I want to start competing, in a LaRue M4 Mount. MBUS rear sight.

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:09 pm

Griff wrote:just how many "iron cross" air filter covers do you have to see before one realizes that one's just part of the crowd.

Even Mossberg would draw the line at that.

Oh... you mean on motorcycles.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:35 pm

Young people, i.e. new shooters, think it is cool so it sells. It gets people invested in gun ownership. It is good.

I also like it because it scares the heck out of the socialists.

Stan in SC · Post by **Stan in SC** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:37 pm

Hobie,
VERY good points.I hadn't thought of it from those standpoints.Thank you.

Stan in SC

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:02 pm

Bullard4075 wrote:When they ask about a "tactical" feature, I give them a serious deadpan and tell them it's not "tactical", it's even more cool/super secret, it's a "strategic feature". I've actually had a couple of Rambo wannabes get all impressed. Sad some kids today don't know how to use a dictionary.

Now THAT is funny (the first part), and sad-but-true (the second part).

Hobie wrote:Young people, i.e. new shooters, think it is cool so it sells. It gets people invested in gun ownership. It is good. I also like it because it scares the heck out of the socialists.

First part very true, second part

Griff wrote:My idea of tactical:

I guess that's a timeless concept...

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:58 pm

I posted a similar question on a shotgun Webb site concerning all the tricked out shotguns and tactical stuff people are hanging on their short barreled shotguns. Now I have a great deal of respect for a good defensive shotgun, but some of them don't even resemble a shotgun any longer.

I feel the same way about rifles for the most part, especially leverguns, but I do understand the interest in military type gear. I personally enjoy a good M1 Garand, M14, M1 carbine and the like, because that is what I trained on during my stint in the army. I guess the new generation is no different and I respect them for it. Many of them trained on the AR type and that has created a whole new market. The mall ninja types and wannabees are no different than they have ever been.

I doubt most of the things available to hang on a rifle these day makes a person a better shooter and if I owned one it would be "tactical cool", but in the mean time I will continue to enjoy my leverguns and a few good bolt guns and buy more ammo for practice. That is what is truly meant by tactical.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:18 pm

This is as Tacticool as I get:

Erma - pretty much a bone-stock HK91 clone

And the Car Shotgun, with green laser because the sight bead is worthless.

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:42 pm

Doc you know anything bout the Indian pix? Ive had one for years its my fav.

was shooting with a taccool guy last weekend he had a 223 & a 308 whatever, they had all the things on them & im glad he thought they were cool cuz he had alot of bucks in them, anyway I had a 94 & a 45 vaq. with me, he said hes never shot a lever, so i said have at it & he blasted off 7 shots reloaded & shot 7 more, & then asked do you want to sell it?

I just said no But he wants me to find him one real fast now, he said there cool

ollogger

1894cfan · Post by **1894cfan** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:36 pm

My Marlin 1894c with williams peep sight is as tactical as I really need to get in my neck of the woods. However, if I need to reach out and touch someone I'll just grab my Granddads '41 Win M70 in 30govt/06 with Lyman receiver sight.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:50 pm

ollogger wrote:Doc you know anything bout the Indian pix? Ive had one for years its my fav.

Here's about the artist - Howard Terpning

Here's his art gallery - "First People"

Here's one of my favorites... I'm getting it if I win the lottery... It's one of my screensavers, at least.
http://www.bnr-art.com/terpning/stragglers.htm

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:35 am

many good points on this thread, and the shortest-term driving force is simply marketing of tactical accessories - the demand side being people with money burning a hole in their pocket wanting to spend on their hobby every chance they get.

But the long-term driving force was the ban on assault weapons. It started the better-get-them-while-you-can argument.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:46 am

well...... I am going to put the M4 butt stock on one of my 12s. I need the shorter LOP and it will stow and swing much better in my boat.

just because a butt stock resembles something from the middle ages doesn't mean it is superior for my uses in my lifetime.

as for the rest, it used to be a free country, and folks could do something BECAUSE THEY COULD.

perhaps it's an explosion of people yearning for liberty, exercising what little they have left to them.

dennie · Post by **dennie** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:22 am

I have mixed views on the "tactical" issue. I have made it to 66yo without having to be "tactical", so doubt that I need to be now. But yes, I do sometimes think of buying an EBR, just because.

I like firearms of many types, and building an AR would probably be fun. Seems to me that most of the people I see buying ARs at the local gun shows are 20 something yo, covered in tats, dressed in camo, and constantly on their cell phones. I am probably wrong, but when I see these folks, I get the impression that "tactical" to them means "manhood". Can you reach "manhood" by playing video games, texting, tweeting, watching Rambo movies, or anything else that the only requirements are that you use both thumbs? I doubt it. But then, I am just a cranky old fanny burp.
I have a .30-30 Trapper by the bed, a 1911 in the truck, and a .357/.38spl in my pocket. That is about as "tactical" as I get.
Yes, they are buying guns, ammo, and equipment, and that is mostly a good thing. Wonder how many have NRA memberships?
I did buy a Tapco stock for my SKS and a folding stock for my AK. They are both black, therefore "tactical". I really like the AK stock. The stock for the SKS has the pistol grip. Never being in the military I am not at all familiar/ comfortable with the pistol grip stocks, so put the wood stock back on the SKS. But then never being in the military may explain why I do not care for the "tactical" things. Heck, I never played with "GI Joe" dolls either.
Jeez, no wonder she says I'm cranky!
dennie

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:32 am

dennie wrote:... Heck, I never played with "GI Joe" dolls either.
Jeez, no wonder she says I'm cranky!
dennie

no offense, but GI Joe dolls came out when you were 18

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:04 am

dennie wrote:Seems to me that most of the people I see buying ARs at the local gun shows are 20 something yo, covered in tats, dressed in camo, and constantly on their cell phones. I am probably wrong, but when I see these folks, I get the impression that "tactical" to them means "manhood".

I guess I'm a cranky almost-as-old fanny burp, too...

On the other hand, for my generation, and probably yours, 'manhood' DID include getting mature enough to handle a Garand, buy a .30-30, or possess a 1911. It wasn't really a "macho" thing, but I do remember every kid I hung around with was allowed to shoot by the time they were in first grade, and a few claimed they 'owned' a .22 but we all knew it was probably Dad's. However, around age 10 to 12, each kid would finally get their OWN .22 (or .410), and boy did that make them feel all grown up. They would act all nonchalant about it sometimes like it was no big deal, but do things like when at the gun store to buy a brick of .22 LR's, they'd ask the proprietor which brand was more accurate, expalining to them (but in earshot of their buddies), "since I'm now shooting a Marlin micro-groove" or some such thing. Then in high school we started getting centerfire firearms and our own handguns of various sorts. We were notorious for breaking down our .22's and stuffing them in blankets or backbacks or duffle bags to wedge into our lockers at school, so we could cut out after lunch and go shoot frogs at the local fisheries (gave lots of legs to the shop teacher who happened to be the truant officer

). Once in awhile a kid would wrap up his new centerfire and just bring it along to show the rest of us; I remember everything from a breakopen .45-70 to a fancy H&K 93 being 'introduced' to the rest of us that way. Didn't usually shoot any of them, as the fisheries owners tolerated us there only because we were low-profile with our quiet .22 LR's, and more noise than that would rile up the neighbors to tell them to "do something about those kids who are always over there".

I suppose to us all that was indeed a 'manhood' rite-of-passage thing, and I honestly don't know how we would have reacted to the doo-dads and 'accessories' and black rifle stuff back then. Mostly we wanted stuff we could hunt with, but we all had read Mel Tappan's "Survival Guns" too, and would most likely have gone a bit more that way if we had the money. A bandolier with nine extra magazines (they hadn't come out with high-capacity ones yet) for my 10/22 was as 'tactical' as I got back then, other than picking my levergun (Marlin 1894) to use the same cartridges as my only centerfire handgun (a Super Blackhawk). I didn't pick the Ruger semiauto carbine because in 'survival' mode my scrounged-up ammo might not cycle it, and they didn't make the 96/44 yet. (Ironically I never got that 'tactical' Ruger 96/44 until a few years ago. . . from Stan, the original poster of this thread...!)

dennie · Post by **dennie** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:08 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
dennie wrote:... Heck, I never played with "GI Joe" dolls either.
Jeez, no wonder she says I'm cranky!
dennie

no offense, but GI Joe dolls came out when you were 18

No offense taken, but, I still never played with them!

Most of my upbringing seems to be a lot like Doc's. My family were not really "gun folks". We had them to hunt and plink with on the farm. My gramps had a 12ga hammer double, a Win. 1890 .22short only, a .410, and a falling block single shot pistol with a bakelite home - made grip. I was shooting all but the 12ga when I was about 6yo. Dad had a 12ga single shot with nylon stock, perhaps "tactical" nylon, kicked like a mule! My brother has it now. Dad also had a Springfield .22 bolt rifle that went through many thousands of rounds. Also a Ruger Standard model that came out then, and A S&W M10 that he carried on the Sheriff's dept.
Remember one time when I left a rack of 45 rpm records on the package shelf of the car one summer. Man did they warp! My brother and I used them like clay birds, hand thrown, using dad's 12ga. Man, what fun, but our shoulders were black/blue/purple/green, and I think other colors as well, for many days!
My gramps was an old German farmer and nothing came before the chores. And yes, I had chores at age 6 on. No tv, no toys, no nothing, until chores were done. From school bus to chores, then the extras in the evening. Chores to school bus in the morning. Try that today!
Would not have time for cell phones, video games, cruisin' in my new car I got in high school, hangin' with the bros, whatever, until chores were done. See the picture here. We were taught "responsibility" at home, and at school. It would take "grown up/responsible" parents to raise kids now, as back then. Unfortunately, I haven't seen all that many "grown up/responsible" parents in the past couple of generations. Just sayin'.
Cranky, and maybe wrong, but honest opinions.
dennie

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:44 pm

AJMD429 said:
I guess I'm a cranky almost-as-old fanny burp, too...

Count me in as an old fanny burp and since I am a little older I get to be a little crankier. . . . . .

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:11 am

I didn't grow up hunting, I grew up in a city (L.A).

Didn't grow up shooting much, though I read about it a ton. Never had a rifle till I bought my own (a Lee-Enfield) and I've always been interested in the military, not hunting side of things.

I can appreciate any weapon for it's qualities and attributes, and have shot everything from muzzle loaders and express rifles up to miniguns and cannons.

I carried an M4 carbine every single day on duty for 3 years when I wasn't carrying a machine gun (M240B or M249) and before that, an M16A2.

At this point I've carried one of the M16 family of weapons on duty, or had access to one, for over half my life. The only thing I've got more time on is Lee-Enfields and Mausers. Had to wait till 12 years ago to get a levergun, and am currently without one. In my case, there is no rifle I would use for serious purposes I am more familiar with than an M16/M4/AR, and mine is set up identically to my issued piece, just with better components.

Collapsible stock? Yup. Fits people better, my unit had 4'9" girls and a 6'8" guy issued the same rifle.

Aimpoint scope? Hits faster and more accurately (coming from a guy who shot irons for 20 years).

Backup irons? Aimpoints, while near indestructible, can be damaged.

Onboard weapon light? Having searched a few thousand rooms, tunnels, bunkers, closets, portapotties, vehicles and aircraft interiors, this isn't an option, it's a necessity.

Quick-adjust sling? Yup.....thick clothing and rapid adjustment for on/off is nice.
30 round magazine? Yes, because some things take more shooting than others. It's also not 1936 anymore.

It's not perfect for everything (bears, elk, moose, aircraft, tanks, and ships for example) but in 5.56mm and 6.5mm Grendel or 6.8mm can handle most anything I'd ever need to shoot.

I have a couple bolt actions that can handle the rest.

That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a nice Rigby, or a classic '73 Winchester, or a hand-made Perazzi. But every piece has different uses. Same reason I carry a Glock and my 1911 is a range piece. They have their roles.

Quite a few AR shooters are people without a clue, who probably have played a bit too much Call of Duty. But not all of us are.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:11 am

Whenever we go to the range and are checking out, the owner asks us for a safety report on the "tactical" guys shooting from the adjacent stalls.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:20 am

I went thru a tactical stage back in the late '80's and it was over by the early 90's. Folding stocks, hicap mags for 10/22's and Mini-14's, etc, etc. Did I think Red Dawn was gonna happen? Nope, just thought they were fun and looked cool. Over time my shooting became more serious with less(pretty much zero) play and I slowly became more and more anti-tactical to the point of being down right vicious about it, especially towards tactical .22's. Fast forward to a year or so ago and I've softened considerably. I still think anyone out there buying tactical cause they think the world is coming to an end is an idiot but for the fun factor guys out there I say have at it. Especially the cheap to shoot .22lr guns. Let's face it, if you're buying a gun for the soul purpose of ventilating cans and blowing thru ammo than it might as well be cheap ammo. I even went out and bought my first hicap 10/22 magazine for the first time in 20 years just for tin cans. Trying to put some fun back in my shooting and ya know what? It works. Sometimes we can be too serious.

In reality the tactical guys are into their guns for many of the same reasons many of us are into leverguns and SA's. Just a different generation and some of us older folk tend to forget that. Don't.

LK

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:03 am

Stan,

I agree many people want tactical because of the latest and greatest gadgets while many will never use them and the gun will probably just be setting in a safe/corner of the room.

However, a lot of people(do need them)

Let's say you live in Montana(your home is in the woods)you have to go into those woods for whatever reason every night(with bear/cougars/wolves/rabid animals etc. possibly being there and confronting you)or even just outside of your home.Even with decent outdoor lighting you still run into some dark areas etc.

Will you feel better having a maglite in your left hand,gun in right/a tiny LED brimmed cap/no light/or a serious tactical light affixed to your short barreled Rem 870 loaded with a combo of 00 Buck/Slugs with both hands on weapon at the ready if need be.

Same deal with a laser on your HD handgun-------(why wouldn't you?????) other than spending the money it get it!

I have tried all the ways and if someone can show me a better way when being in frequent bear confrontations at night let me know please?????? In fact I just ordered 2 more boxes of rubber slugs. Time to move em back some(they are getting too bold)

Example,last night 1am put on the slip on snake boots(take my dog out)he is trained to do his duty in the woods---log road to my left hear this pronounced sound of something(pretty big)running down log road 50ft away over bank.You know how it is that time of night can hear a pin drop.Dog is growling/fur up---then I hear this (wheeze/blow)like how a deer sounds when alarmed(then 5 seconds later)followed by clicking sound like a bear does(deer don't do that

)
That type stuff ??????
Whatever name you call it(want what works best) At night outside of home(SB 12ga shotgun/tactical light)loaded with staggered Win Supreme 12 pellet 00 Buck and Brenneke 484gr Green Lightnings.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:23 am

Deleted

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:03 pm

Steve, odds are you have some astigmatism.

It affects some people with dot scopes and reflex optics.

A 'true" 1-4X (not a 1.25X) with an illuminated reticle would be very quick for you.

I'd swap those mounts out on the wood-stock model for an LT104 mount.