The signs of too much powder?

[hightime]

I've been reloading a lot. Trying several loads. Mostly 45 Colt in a 1873 Winchester Uberti. I thought I've been near the max. on some, but I saw no signs of it.
I loaded 357 mag yesterday. When I shot a couple they seemed quite hot. I don't thing I'll do that load again. It got me wondering if I'm not seeing warning signs. Prudent advice always says start light and work up, but how do you know when enough is enough. Since I hunt with my guns, sometimes I want potent loads.

Owen

[Leverdude]

Use only data with published pressures near the top. Most customary signs dont start showing up until you are beyond levergun pressure limits. Generally speaking by the time you get tough extraction, flat primers & other things normally show up well beyond 40,000 or so PSI. I wouldnt shoot even moderately hot loads in a 73 personally.

[jnyork]

Listen to leverdude, he gives good advice.

Frequently, we see folks like yourself trying wring every foot-per-second they can out of a cartridge for hunting purposes. Does you no good at all. The deer/pig/pronghorn/elk cant tell the difference of 100 fps, its the well placed shot that puts the meat in the freezer, not the velocity. Very frequently the "maximum" load is not the most accurate. Load for accuracy and reasonable velocity, and practice, practice, practice.

PS: "Maximum" loads or above sometimes will stick a case or part of a case in the chamber. Try getting that second shot at the elk with a situation like that!

[earlmck]

Yeah, Leverdude has it nailed. When the books talk about "start low and work up" they are assuming you are using a strong action that can handle the occasional load that goes "too hot". Trouble is, your cartridge case isn't going to show pressure signs until waaaay past what you want to shoot in most of our lever guns, especially a '73 style gun...

[Old Savage]

What Hobie is going to say.

[Blaine]

I've been reeloading a lot. Trying several loads. Mostly 45 Colt in a 1873 Winchester Uberti. I thought I've been near the max. on some, but I saw no signs of it.
I loaded 357 mag yesterday. When I shot a couple they seemed quite hot. I don't thing I'll do that load again. It got me wondering if I'm not seeing warning signs. Prudent advice always says start light and work up, but how do you know when enough is enough. Since I hunt with my guns, sometimes I want potent loads.

Owen

The above advice is correct. Not being a smart alec, but if you need more power, get another calibre, or use a better constructed bullet

[stretch]

What leverdude, Blaine, and others have said.

Get really good groups first. If you're down 50 or
100fps, it's not going to make the difference in your
hunt. If it will, ya need a bigger gun.

That practice thing has been shown to help quite
a bit as well........ (Yes, really! )

-Stretch

[hightime]

I take a little offence to the statement'' folks like yourself'' If I'm here asking for advice, how's that a bad thing? Did I say I needed hot loads? I just want to know as much things about reloading as I can.
The only helpful thing said was that a lever action pistol cal. rifle won't show signs of a overload at pressures that exceed the rifle's abilities. Thanks for that advice.
I had been hearing mention of bulging primers and people looking for overload signs. I guess they are bolt action shooters. By the way I shoot twenty eight other rifles in many calibers.

Owen

[hightime]

I think the reason it's on my mind is, the 45 Colt in the large chamber, seems to shoot better when the load expands the brass to seal it. I have been shooting 250 gr. loads up to the 9gr. Unique range. The book says approach max. load slowly. I don't quite understand if there is no signs to read.
I won't be going over their recomendations. Just wondering.

Owen

[Hobie]

PLUS the firearm in which you are using the cartridge is traditionally considered a weak sister to more modern designs. Stick with the SAAMI spec loads and if you need more gun, buy more gun.

[Blaine]

I've been reeloading a lot. Trying several loads. Mostly 45 Colt in a 1873 Winchester Uberti. I thought I've been near the max. on some, but I saw no signs of it.
I loaded 357 mag yesterday. When I shot a couple they seemed quite hot. I don't thing I'll do that load again. It got me wondering if I'm not seeing warning signs. Prudent advice always says start light and work up, but how do you know when enough is enough. Since I hunt with my guns, sometimes I want potent loads.

Owen

When a book of published loads sez it's enough.....Statements like that are perhaps why you got a little extra advice

[earlmck]

This is a really really good question that hightime is asking and I don't think we have done our usual good job of answering. I mean, we did well on why "start low and work up watching for bad signs" is not real good advice with lots of the guns we deal with. But with the 45 Colt there are lots of different "book" loads, depending on what gun they are intended for because loads range from the old black-powder 14000 psi loads to more middling 18,000 to 20,000 psi loads to 30,000 psi loads for more modern rifles and handguns to 50,000+ psi loads for the really strong ones like the Rossi and the Freedom Arms. Now a modern manufactured '73 has got to be more pressure-capable than an old original, right? So what pressure range should hightime be looking for? Has to be something above the old black-powder range. Didn't Uberti chamber some of these in 44 mag? If that is so -- and I'm not sure about that "recollection" -- it would say the Uberti '73 could be stepped up another notch from where hightime is at this time. Some of you Levergunners know all about this and can help out here.

I looked at the 250 grain jacketed/9 grains Unique load on QuickLoad and it says this should be around 18,500 psi. Seems reasonable pressure range to me. In this pressure range it looks like 10.5 to 11 grains of PowerPistol or 14 to 14.5 grains of Blue Dot would gain you a couple hundred feet/sec. velocity. Some of you fellows loading for '73s probably have a good load for it going closer to 1500 fps than the 1300 hightime is probably getting, with moderate pressures. What say you?

I don't have the right experience to help out here: I have an old Colt that I load to black-powder levels using 7 grains of Unique with a 250 grain cast bullet and a Rossi that I load right on up there using 26 grains of Lil'Gun with the 300 Hornady XTP. Friend hightime is looking for something in between.

[jnyork]

I take a little offence to the statement'' folks like yourself'' If I'm here asking for advice, how's that a bad thing? Did I say I needed hot loads? I just want to know as much things about reloading as I can.
The only helpful thing said was that a lever action pistol cal. rifle won't show signs of a overload at pressures that exceed the rifle's abilities. Thanks for that advice.
I had been hearing mention of bulging primers and people looking for overload signs. I guess they are bolt action shooters. By the way I shoot twenty eight other rifles in many calibers.

Owen

Danged if I can figure out how you could possibly be offended by anything I said there in trying to answer your question , or how you could somehow come up with me saying anything about it being a bad thing that you asked for advice. Yes, you said you wanted hot loads, "something potent for hunting".

I stand by everything I said, if you are determined to be offended, nothing I can do about it.

[hightime]

I said I wanted potent loads. The listed loads work just fine, but I have found big differances in recomended charges from the four load data books I have. What I was hoping for is an indication of pressure even in recomended loads from say low to high.
The answer I'm hearing is, there is no tell tail signs whether you work up from weak to high loads.

Remember the guy who is being safe, asks questions.

Owen

[Hobie]

I said I wanted potent loads. The listed loads work just fine, but I have found big differances in recomended charges from the four load data books I have. What I was hoping for is an indication of pressure even in recomended loads from say low to high.
The answer I'm hearing is, there is no tell tail signs whether you work up from weak to high loads.

Remember the guy who is being safe, asks questions.

Owen

The loads you are using are "potent" although your opinion on HOW potent may vary depending on your target... Then, you were also advised to get more gun if you need more gun.

I don't know if it was you but there have been several topics asking WHICH .45 Colt rifle to get. Inevitably the individual is asked to what purpose he wishes to turn his new rifle. In many, not all instances, he mentions hunting and having read about "Ruger level loads" or some such similar. In ALL instances it is recommended that one get a model 92 (not the brass framed model) for these .44 Mag level loads. Often, the strength level of the toggle link action Winchesters is discussed. Sometimes the person buys the 1873 version. And then, in some instances, that buyer wishes to now find some more "potent" loads for the rifle he bought against the recommendations he requested.

If you read the manuals, load data, and articles on the .45 Colt you'll see that the SAAMI max average pressure is 15,900 psi (IIRC) which is the supposed limits of the 1873 actions. The "Ruger only loads" aren't normally expected to exceed 35,000 psi and are safe in most good condition model 92 reproductions such as the Rossi guns. Inevitably, or so it seems to long time posters here, buyers of the 1873 actions fully expect that because the rifle is so chambered it can and should handily accept and safely fire such loads regardless of cartridge overall length, pressures, and so forth.

As to those who often mention Uberti's release of 1873 carbines chambered in the .44 Magnum, the supposed modifications to the action have been discussed over and over but the manufacturer claimed that no modifications were made. Yes, modern steels are used rather than the iron and mild steel frames of the original Winchester production. However, the guns were NOT cataloged in the color case frame versions because this supposedly reduced the margin of safety. I'd also like to ask just who has actually seen such a rifle outside the SHOT or other trade show? I haven't. We haven't had a one come through our shop. I don't know if they were actually produced or not. One thing I do know is that we don't hear anything about them or their durability when using .44 Magnum ammunition so we have no proof that they are or aren't safe. I think I'd prefer to err on the side of generations of practical wisdom concerning the actions.

In truth the 1873 chambered in the .44 WCF, .38 WCF, and .32 WCF served generations of hunters as all-around rifles when properly managed and bullets properly placed in game at reasonable ranges. That is, they were potent enough with 115 to 200 grain bullets at 1300 fps. The SAAMI level .45 Colt loads of 250 gr. at about 1200 fps should serve adequately given proper management by the shooter. The old saw that if you want or need more gun you should get more gun certainly seems to apply.

[gundownunder]

how do you know when enough is enough

Here is the short answer.
When you reach the upper limit of either your rifle or cartridge and its ability to contain the pressure generated by the load.

I don't own a 45 Colt (yet) and I don't own a 73 Winchester but I do know that the 45 Colt cartridge is capable of holding much more pressure than SAMMI specs allow for and it is my understanding that the weak part of the 73 has always been the strength of the toggle link action rather than the strength of the metal.
The 45 Colt SAMMI specs are designed to prevent the overloading of cartridges designed for the Colt Single Action Army which was the original revolver for this caliber, and which some folks are still shooting to this day. If you want to exceed SAMMI spec you can only exceed it to the extent that your action allows. In the case of the 92 action I think that may be around 50,000 cup and in the Marlin 94 around 40,000. In Paco Kelly's article on the 45 Colt he says the 73 pressure limit is 14,000. On the subject of the 44 Magnum 1873, Paco's article says

The Henry Rifle Company is putting out a 44 magnum cosmetically looking 73, the internal system is NOT the weak three part toggle system...

If you want to develop a more potent load without exceeding pressure limits there are a couple of ways to do it which have not been mentioned by anyone yet.
If you are using jacketed bullets, switch to lead, as lead generates less pressure.
The other way is to find a powder that gives better velocity with less pressure, I can't help you with a recommendation as all the data I have suggests Unique is the lowest pressure powder available. Paco claims that 2400 will produce more velocity than Unique at about 13,000 cup, but I cannot find any reloading data in my manuals to back that up.

If you haven't already read it I would suggest you give this article a look,
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm

[hightime]

Great information guys. I'm sure my reloading will work out fine. My guns still away, hopefully getting fixed. New barrel , I hope.
I understand the weaker toggle action. I have two and several '94's. The '73 is such a thing of beauty, that's whay I want to use for deer hunting. My shots will be in the fifty to one hundred yard range.
My question got answered, but not straight out. The answer, as I see it is, There are no signs to read on the cartridge or the gun when approaching higher powder loads. None at all if you're within manual recommendations.

As far as the guns limmitations, I have come to think higher power loads might wear on the toggle points and pivots and put premature wear on them. While these higher power loads, if within the tables for that model gun, might not actually blow up a gun, they will put stress on components.
I want to find a accurate load with plenty power for hunting that won't put to much wear a tear on my gun with a few hundred rounds of target shooting.

Before I even knew about cowboy action, I shot at a deer with my Henry 44-40. and those anemic cowboy loads. Bad sights and a stupid weak pop. I sure was glad I missed cleanly. I don't think that pop would have made a clean kill. As you can see in my avitar, I have the sights fixed and I bought a box of hunting loads with deer pictured on them. The next project is to add 44-40 dies to my collection.

Owen

[Sixgun]

Be careful--an old buddie of mine--1886 in 45-90.---------Sixgun

[Blaine]

THAT sucks! I hope he kept all his eyes and fingers. (that's why you follow the book ((or better: a couple books)) )

[KCSO]

Do like my customer, load till the rifle blows up then buy a new gun and drop the powder charge 2 grains! I kid you not.

If you ever need moore powder than a good loading manual say is max you are hunting way too much animal with way too little gun.

[Sixgun]

THAT sucks! I hope he kept all his eyes and fingers. (that's why you follow the book ((or better: a couple books)) )

Blaine,
The rifle was the buddy. I was the shooter. 27 years of warm loads--she had enough. 3.5K rifle---gone

Its really hard to stress the fact of overloads unless one has personally experienced a blow up in their face. You get careful after that and even then I have slipped a time or two. When some rifles blow, the bolt comes straight back and will kill you or at least will put your headlights out. bummer.....---------Sixgun

[Blaine]

THAT sucks! I hope he kept all his eyes and fingers. (that's why you follow the book ((or better: a couple books)) )

Blaine,
The rifle was the buddy. I was the shooter. 27 years of warm loads--she had enough. 3.5K rifle---gone

Its really hard to stress the fact of overloads unless one has personally experienced a blow up in their face. You get careful after that and even then I have slipped a time or two. When some rifles blow, the bolt comes straight back and will kill you or at least will put your headlights out. bummer.....---------Sixgun

I'm happy you are ok after that fiasco.

[earlmck]

Sixgun wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
THAT sucks! I hope he kept all his eyes and fingers. (that's why you follow the book ((or better: a couple books)) )


Blaine,
The rifle was the buddy. I was the shooter. 27 years of warm loads--she had enough. 3.5K rifle---gone

Its really hard to stress the fact of overloads unless one has personally experienced a blow up in their face. You get careful after that and even then I have slipped a time or two. When some rifles blow, the bolt comes straight back and will kill you or at least will put your headlights out. bummer.....---------Sixgun


I'm happy you are ok after that fiasco.

Sixgun, I too am glad you are all right after that dramatic event. But I am sure having trouble thinking that was the result of 27 years of warm loads. Something way past a warm load happened to that rifle. Like a double charge or maybe one of those weird detonations from a light load of slow powder we hear about but most of us have thought was a myth. Thing about a 45-90 case is it would be real amenable to either one of those causes.

Ya know what just occurred to me -- what that most looks like is my personal little nightmare: a cartridge where the primer goes off but doesn't ignite the powder and the bullet goes a ways up the barrel. If you are wearing ear muffs all this is is "click". I have twice been within a millimeter of firing that next shot 'cause I thought it was just a dud. I'd have had something just like your are showing here...

This is coming from a fellow who has spent the last 50 years figuring that it is just some other Homo sapiens who write loading manuals and so they are therefore interesting suggestions but they are not bibles.