Rechamber a 30-30, to what?

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:03 am

I´ve been thinking... Over here in Sweden, we have a class-system on our firearms. Or, I should really say, the system is for the ammunition, really.
However, the highest class being calls 1, is the only one allowed for hunting bear, moose, and so on. The biggest game-types we have, to simplify.
In order to be a class 1 caliber, the bullet has to deliver 1475 foot-pounds of energy at the 100 yard mark.
Me having a 30-30, has a hard time getting those numbers without having to seriously overload the ammo into obscure pressures.
So, my question to the forum is, what options are there? Wich calibers would fit the bill, without having to rebore the barrel or making to much modifications to the bolt and so on. Am I limited to going with a 30-30 Ackley Improved, or is there any other options to get some more oomphf inte this.
In other words, what cartridges might be possible to just rechamber the rifle for?

The only rules other than simplicity in the rebuild, is that the bullet has to be 30 cal, and has to deliver at least 1475 foot-pounds at 100 yards.
Thought´s? This is only a mind-game at this point, but if there proves to be any actual serious options, this might just get done.

Dennis

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:07 am

What type of .30-30 is it?

I'm assuming a levergun, but I've seen .30-30 single shots and bolt actions and pumps.

The magazine type (if any) would restrict the length of the cartridge if you go for modifications, as would the shell lifter and receiver length on a lever.

I've only ever seen .30-30s modified to .30-30 AI.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:30 am

Aren't .35 Remington and .38-55 and .375 Winchester all on the same actions as .30-30...?

I'd think the .375 might be too 'hot' unless it's a strong action and modern gun.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:46 am

I´m sorry guy´s I completely forgot to say what boomstick this was all about, sorry about that!
It´s a winchester 94, born in 1976. Top eject, 20" barrel.
But ok, there we have a couple of candidates then.
Keep rackin them up, and when I have a few options, I´ll start checking max pressures and so on.
Thank´s everyone!

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:03 am

The 307 Win and 308 marlin express are to high pressure for the standard Win 94 action. Not sure how much wildcating you want to do. The 30 lever power is based on the 30-40 krag which is safe to chamber. 30-30 Ackley would be the easiest, not sure if will get the numbers you want.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 am

That´s just the problem. Some rifles do get just over the limit to pass for class 1 when ackley-fied, and some don´t. So I was just wondering if there any other options out there. At the same time it has to be fairly simple, ie cost effective, to do the conversion, but on the other hand it has to be worth it in regards to gained performance. It´s not an easy nut to crack!

gak · Post by **gak** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:33 am

I'd say no, nothing that'd meet your criteria of cost effective that'd still meet and preferably exceed the ballistics objective *and* make the $/hassle factor pay out--and perhaps not even after throwing $ at it--and certainly nothing w/o involving a re-bore or re-barrel. May have to figure out a way to a Big Bore 94 or such, which I know is not what you had in mind budget wise.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:49 am

Derenius,

BenT suggested the AI version of the 30-30. I don't know much about it but how about the AI version in a full 26" rifle barrel?

The 20" barrel does loose performance to the longer barrel, so perhaps both the AI chamber and the longer barrel might get you where you want to be.

Like you said, just a mind game.

Joe

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:57 am

Nah, this is not really in the real world as of yet. It's purely hypothetical, and mostly for fun as of yet.
But, if there actually comes up a real and realistic alternative to ackleyfying, I'll consider it. The budget is not set, and if it is just a matter of rechambering and adjusting for headspace, I can actually do it myself.
But that's getting way ahead of it, for now this is just an exercise in brainstorming and hearing what you guys have to say about it.
If all else fails, I'll probably go the ackley route if I decide to do this, but for now I just wanted to se if there are any options that would fit the bill!
And so far, I'm enjoying the ride!

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:01 am

I'll just throw this out there as well...
From what I've read about the thuttythutty ackley, most people get small to moderate increases in velocity with the same pressure in the case. However, many a handloader have found that they get much better life cycles out of the brass. True?
Experience anyone?

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:22 am

Have both 243 and 22-250 Ackley Improved and it makes the brass last forever without trimming. 243 always seemed to need trimming nearly every reload but the AI just solves the problem. I've always wanted to do a 30-30 AI but just never got around to it. I think with the longer barrel you'd be able to achieve your goal.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:34 am

Well, I'm only missing about 50 fps to consistently getting the speeds I need for the goal, so perhaps the Ackley would do the job just fine then?
As we all know, rifles are individuals, and can show really different speeds with the same ammo. My buddy's thuttythutty lacks about 100 fps to do the job with the same loads. And before you ask, no, there are no tight spots in the barrel and so on. It seems though, like my gun has a somewhat large chamber.
By the way, is there any 30-30 AI brass commercially available, or does one have to fire form all your own?

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:36 am

The 35/30 looks pretty good to me.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w353030.html

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:53 am

Sarge, that seems really interesting, but there is the matter of having to rebore the barrel. Maybe there are barrels out there to be bought?
However I'd rather keep the bore and find another route, if possible.
Maybe the ackley is the only option I have without reboring or switching barrel, but the rebore or barrel swap wold kind of render the experiment uninteresting for me.
I could just get a different rifle in that case...
I appreciate everyone's effort to crack this though, so keep it coming if you've got anything to add to the matter!

Dennis

smokenrust · Post by **smokenrust** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:43 am

Sarge's post reminded me thinking about 'what would happen if a 32 WS was Acklinized?'.
Should have made an improvement there.
Well if you acklinize your thutty-thutty, it will be done and you still can use either bullets in it...

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:59 am

Smokenrust, that is a very good point...

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:19 pm

Derenius wrote:Me having a 30-30, has a hard time getting those numbers without having to seriously overload the ammo into obscure pressures.

Dennis, have a look at using Hodgdon's LVR powder. Their suggested load of 36.5 grains with the 170 grain bullet gives me 2400 fps in my 24" barrel and should give you 2300 in your 20" barrel. This with very modest pressure. My ballistic program says this gets you 1800 ft-lbs at 100 yards which easily meets your needs. To heck with rechambering a perfectly good rifle!

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:37 pm

earlmck, thank´s for that tip. However, I´ve already looked in to that option, and the sad thing is, we can´t get it here in Sweden. There are som approval and proofing stuff that needs to be done, and as of now, it´s not done yet. I´ve been in contact with a few dealers here in Sweden, and they say that it MIGHT be done by august.
That was the first thing I researched actually, and I think I got the dealers thinking a bit. Since we have this calssification-system here in Sweden, there are quite a lot of levergunners that would love to be able to take their rifles up to class 1 performance. So the market ought to be fairly big for this powder. There are in my opinion several other calibers that would benefit from the LVR-powder.
A follow-up question, now that we have the LVR-powder on subject:
How is that powder behaving in the measures? I popped one of my factoryloads open the other day, and noticed that there are several different sizes of powder-grains in it. I guess that´s why they call it a double-base powder, but does it present any problems in the measures and so forth? In my mind, prior to loading the measure, I´d have to shake the powder-bottle a good bit to "even out" the blend, so to speak. Am I just silly?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:06 pm

BenT wrote: 308 marlin express are to high pressure for the standard Win 94 action.

Umm what? A round designed specifically for the 336 Marlin action is too hot for a Win 94?

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:07 pm

Derenius wrote:Well, I'm only missing about 50 fps to consistently getting the speeds I need for the goal, so perhaps the Ackley would do the job just fine then?
As we all know, rifles are individuals, and can show really different speeds with the same ammo. My buddy's thuttythutty lacks about 100 fps to do the job with the same loads. And before you ask, no, there are no tight spots in the barrel and so on. It seems though, like my gun has a somewhat large chamber.
By the way, is there any 30-30 AI brass commercially available, or does one have to fire form all your own?

If you are only 50 fps short, the ackley should do it easily. you can get a reamer and convert it yourself. the brass is fireformed simply by firing the standard 30/30 cartridge in your new chamber. dies are inexpensive from Lee and others. i think this is they way to go.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:11 pm

Yeah, me and my buddy been thinking about getting a reamer together. Still, this is a fun brainstorming and I have learned a good deal today. Now I just need to get my sorry butt off the chair, and do something about it.

Anyone got a 30-30 Ackley on here?
If so, what velocities do you get out of it, and with what load, bullet and so forth?
Imagine, a Ackley improved with the LVR-powder. That could really haul ***! For a thuttythutty, that is...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:22 pm

Derenius wrote:However I'd rather keep the bore and find another route, if possible.

AMMOGUIDE.COM's "Rechambering and Rebarreling" page lets you put in the original cartridge, what bore you want to change to (or keep the same), and other parameters like length and diameter limits for the cartridge, and will then list all the possible options.

You have to be a paid-subscriber to use the program, but the other data and stuff on the site is well worth the nominal fee; they have "What cartridges can use these powders" and "What powders can be used in all these cartridges" pages, plus load data, etc.

Anyway, here's the link - http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aichamber.cgi?

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:32 pm

Yeah, I´ve been contemplating to pay for a subscription on ammoguide for a long time, but never had the bucks at the right time.... So much stuff to buy, and so little money...

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:36 pm

According to the Hodgdon website you could get 2512fps using their Leverevolution powder and 150grain bullets. The ballistic calculator in the Lee Shooter program shows 1493fpe @ 100yards.

And thats w/o any change! Seems to me that any rechambering in a .30 caliber, except the .30-30AI, would result in significantly higher pressures that the 94 is designed for.

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:57 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
BenT wrote: 308 marlin express are to high pressure for the standard Win 94 action.
Umm what? A round designed specifically for the 336 Marlin action is too hot for a Win 94?

Marlins chambered for the 308MX,338MX, and 450 marlin use V threads on the barrel verses the standard square threads. This gives more surface area to grip the receiver and they are a shallower cut , giving more barrel thickness to contain pressure. Marlin barrel shank diameter at the threads are .780 while the Win 94 is .807. Marlin square cut threads have a depth of .078 while Win V threads at 20 tpi are.064. I'm not sure of the TPI V threads used on the 308MX barrels. But I beleive a Win 94 AE receiver could handle the 308MX pressure. It would be cheaper just to buy a Marlin 308MX .

That being said I beleive the LVR powder is the solution here.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Yeah, I guess you are right, the LVR-powder, and Ackleyfying the rifle is propably the route to go. And I already have a 308MX, customized as some have seen...
This still is a fun question to throw around and have fun with, so keep at it if you want to. I´m reading all I can, and soaking up knowledge as I go.
Again, thank´s for indulging me in this brainstorm!

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Ballistics for the 30 lever power. bullet 150 gr 41 gr of 4064 2670 fps

Make from 303 British . Turn rim to .520 and size in lever power die. Base diameter is .455 and shoulder diameter is .441 . Case water capacity is 50.67 gr. 30-30 water capacity is 44.50 gr and the AI is 46.63 grs. 307 Win is 56.69 grs. Just more fodder to kick around.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:46 pm

Dang BenT! We have a new contender! But what about the pressures in that cartridge, how high do they go?

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:05 pm

Keep the 30-30 as is and buy a .356WCF. If .356 ammo is hard for u to find,then get a BLR .308. Not a big fan of pushing guns beyond their limits. For a little more money, you got 2 guns. Winchester 94s that were already stronger than Marlins , were beefed up to handle the BIG Bore cartridges. Losing your eyes, hands, etc. is worth skipping a few meals

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:17 pm

Hell no, aint gettin me no BLR!
Im sure they are great guns, but to me they just dont look....right.

Keep in mind, this is mostly a fun sort of brainstorming exercise, just to get to find out what CAN be done. Most likely, if any of this comes to be real, I´ll just go the Ackley route, and wait for the LVR-powder to actually start selling here in Sweden.

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:49 pm

Gary Reeder has a "modified" 30-30 case. I think it is proposed to have better ballistics than AI. Might check his website.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:07 pm

Derenius wrote:does it present any problems in the measures and so forth?

LVR is a very nice ball powder that meters beautifully. If you can get it you will like it.

Hate to jerk your chain, but yesterday I had a nice day at the range. One of the rifles I shot was my 30 Remington, which has identical case capacity and uses identical loads to the 30/30. 36.5 grains LVR, 170 grain Remington R.N. core-lokt @ 2400 fps. Sighted her 3" high at 100 yards and went on to pop the metal silhouettes we have there. Dead on (or maybe even a bit high yet) at our 200 yard "pig". We have another pig hung at 270 yards and a top of backbone hold put 'em all right in the kill zone. My thought as I was doing this shooting was "I don't need anything better than this for any hunting I do". Which is a heretical thought for a fellow with a whole raft of cool rifles in the gun safe...

soon 2 retire · Post by **soon 2 retire** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:24 pm

Derenius,

Buffalo Bore's new heavy .30-30 with a 190gr. JFN advertises 2100 fps at the muzzle and 1487 ft-lbs at 100 yds. This appears to just squeak by your minimum. They say it's not for deer but it will kill deer; in fact if you line 'em up just right it will kill 3-4 deer. THEIR WORDS NOT MINE. I don't know if you can get them in Sweden but here's the web page address:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l= ... tail&p=222

Bob in Friday Harbor

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 pm

Derenius wrote:Dang BenT! We have a new contender! But what about the pressures in that cartridge, how high do they go?

All I know is that a gentleman by the name of Fred Wade came up with this line of cartridges back in the 60's. He chambered Marlins and Winchester 94's for his cartridges. There was a 25 ,30 and 35 lever power. So I assume they functioned in a safe manner.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:44 pm

BenT wrote:Ballistics for the 30 lever power. bullet 150 gr 41 gr of 4064 2670 fps

Make from 303 British . Turn rim to .520 and size in lever power die. Base diameter is .455 and shoulder diameter is .441 . Case water capacity is 50.67 gr. 30-30 water capacity is 44.50 gr and the AI is 46.63 grs. 307 Win is 56.69 grs. Just more fodder to kick around.

If it were me, I'd do it in 307. There are several things to consider. If one only shoots factory ammo, it may not be the right choice, but if one loads all their own, it should be fine. From the case capacity info, it will do anything the 30 leverpower or 30 AI will, and more, with less pressure. Regarding pressure, it's not chamber pressure that's the issue, but bolt thrust. The relatively straight sided case of the 307 should give somewhat reduced bolt thrust for its relative chamber pressure. One also doesn't have to load to the top of the charts. I rarely do, even in guns factory chambered for any particular round. Most of my guns have never seen a factory round. I don't care to pay what they charge for most factory ammo in any event, as I can load the same or better quality ammo for less money, sometimes FAR less money (checked factory ammo prices on 307 or 348 lately?).

I would have no qualms about a 307 in a 94 action, with the above considerations. It would also be a simple chambering operation, the rim and headspace are the same.

There was a guy in AZ years ago (60's?) that did some 94's in 444. They seemed to do just fine.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:31 am

Wow, as always when night falls here in Sweden, there are a lot of you guys up and writing new stuff over here.
earlmck, that seems like the best opstion to me then, and all you other guys, thank´s a lot for the information and help!
The .307 seems like a possible way to go as well, but we´ll see what happens.

Anyway, thank you everyone, and a good morning to you as well!
Feel free to continue this brainstorming session if anything else pops up in your head, it´s always interesting to hear new thoughts and idéas.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:59 am

OK, had another thought. While you are waiting to get LVR here's what you can do. First you have to read Paco's article on the 30/30 that I myself just got steered to by fellow levergunners "Friends Call Me Ji" and "BlaineG": http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030again.htm

Now you've read that and are ready to happily load some stuff that somewhat exceeds the old SAAMI pressure specs you can send the 170 grain Remington R.N. corelokt downstream at 2150 fps. with 33 grains of Norma 203 or 30.6 grains of Accurate 2495.

My ballistics calculator says this easily meets your 100 yard energy requirements. And if things look fine you can up a bit to 34 grains of the Norma or 31.3 of the Accurate, to get to the 2200 fps velocity at which point you meet your 100 yard energy requirements right on out at the 200 yard range. Mind you I haven't tried any of these loads out -- hey, I've got a jug of LVR in the cabinet

Heck, I just checked my Hodgdon book and they show 36 grains of BL-C(2) making over 2200 fps and remaining inside old SAAMI spec, though I don't know if this was in a 20" barrel. So you have options!

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:12 am

If one were hesitant about chambering in 307, you could chamber it 1/10" short, and shorten your dies the same amount, then a factory round wouldnt chamber, but you'd still be able to use standard brass and dies, simply full sizing and trimming before the first loading. Sounds like less work than the the leverpower round, and perhaps as simple as the AI, with better performance potential.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:04 am

Looking at alliants loads they have have a 150 speer at 2450 fps pushed by 36 grs Reloder 15 for 40.6K PSI and a 170 speer pushed by 34.1 gr of Reloder 15 for 2330 fps and 40.5K PSI, winchester cases and primers were used in a 24" bbl. Speer bullets have a better BC than the others due to the profile. It might be worth your time to see if you can get to your FP limits before you change your bbl or gun. Dont be put off by the factory loads, they load rounds for a early 1900 lever gun, if you have a 40K cup gun load up to that level. Snooky Williamson loaded a 180 cast GC to 2200 fps in a 20" bbl 94 with Reloder7 and IMR 4895 and he didnt have the powders we have today. danny

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:36 am

Boys, I humbly thank you for your research on my behalf! I´ll look into these suggestions, and I will return when I have tried rolling some of these loads. Just gotta get me some of the components you all have suggested!
Thank´s!

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:32 am

Well, small update on the matter.
I was sitting up one night, could not sleep. Got to thinking, an idéa formed in my head.
If one has a given cartridge and load, let´s say the thuttythutty. If the bullet some how is pushed in, the result is a big increase in pressures!
So, what if I did it the other way around...?
Started up quickload, and tried this thing out..
I started with a regular 30-30, and added the Hornady 308MX bullet, in 160 grain weight. If I place that bullet in tha case, so that I can use the crimpgroove, the result is an increase in case capacity, and lowering of the pressure, that it allows me to actually get this cartridge up and well above my needs!
And before anyone asks, yes, I´ve tried to chamber a dummy round, and so forth. It feeds properly, and I´ve still got 0,14 inches left of clearence before the bullet touches the lands!
Man, sometimes I just amaze myself...
I have yet to test this out in real life, but I will do so as soon as my bullets arrive.
I´ll keep you guys posted!

93marshooter · Post by **93marshooter** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:41 pm

up grade of 30-30!!!! I don't think there is any round you can put in a re-chambered 30-30 rifle that will give you enough improvement to make it worth while. The Ackley Improved give only 5% you can get that with the new Leverevolution ammo. If you need more from a lever gun Id go with .308 MX or .338 MX.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:22 am

93marshooter wrote:up grade of 30-30!!!! I don't think there is any round you can put in a re-chambered 30-30 rifle that will give you enough improvement to make it worth while. The Ackley Improved give only 5% you can get that with the new Leverevolution ammo. If you need more from a lever gun Id go with .308 MX or .338 MX.

As stated before, I already have a 308MX, I just want to make something a little more useful out of my 30-30. It´s plenty useful as is, but for it to be legal to hunt moose with here in Sweden, I need to up the "oomphf" just a tiny bit. That´s all I need, and I actually think I got it done with this idéa I had the other night. A minor setback though, I thought I checked how it fed from the magazine, but it turns out I have to set the bullet somewhat deeper than I initially thought. However, it´s gonna be enough, according to quickload. We´ll see when I get my bullets home, and I think I may have the results for you by the end of this weekend.
Stay tuned!

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:27 pm

Sarge wrote:The 35/30 looks pretty good to me.

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w353030.html

Actually, Handloads.com's Ballistic Calculator says that even the 200grn bullet at 1925fps will only produce 1086ft/lbs ME at 100yds so it's not even close to what he needs.