Sorry, another noob AR question/comparison

[MrMurphy]

It's not procurement, it's the open bolt thing.

Most SMG's have the same issue.


In our case, we usually ran the M249 as the 'tail gun' in a 4 man element for that reason as well as maneuverability. In one particular situation I was #2 because the responding patrols included a K9 sergeant minus dog who wasn't as up to speed on non-canine room clearing as he could have been, and an operations sergeant (same issue, office job, didn't train every day).

So my patrol lead and I went in first with them covering us working into a command bunker, more or less underground MOUT. We knew the exact layout, but it was still tough. I ended up sticking the stock over my shoulder, the pistol grip against the armor and i could still get a sight picture with irons. Ended up being a false alarm, but the command bunker being what it was, that was a MAJCOM-level alert, we weren't playing games.

[Old Ironsights]

It's not procurement, it's the open bolt thing.

Most SMG's have the same issue.


In our case, we usually ran the M249 as the 'tail gun' in a 4 man element for that reason as well as maneuverability. In one particular situation I was #2 because the responding patrols included a K9 sergeant minus dog who wasn't as up to speed on non-canine room clearing as he could have been, and an operations sergeant (same issue, office job, didn't train every day).

So my patrol lead and I went in first with them covering us working into a command bunker, more or less underground MOUT. We knew the exact layout, but it was still tough. I ended up sticking the stock over my shoulder, the pistol grip against the armor and i could still get a sight picture with irons. Ended up being a false alarm, but the command bunker being what it was, that was a MAJCOM-level alert, we weren't playing games.

And that is why I have a "Para" stock on my HK91...

[GonnePhishin]

Excellent reading gentlemen, especially never having one.
Another question, please. You say that if one purchases a true millspec lower that any upper should fit?
Does anyone know if the Ruger version is a true millspec? It looks like a nice weapon for the price, especially with the gas adjustment.

[MrMurphy]

The Ruger is overly front heavy and the piston system is a solution looking for a problem. And since the rifle wasn't designed to be a piston gun, many get wear in unusual spots, often from the BCG getting pressed in weird directions. LWRC is the only piston AR that seems to have avoided that and the only one i'd recommend if I had to.

Colt tested piston prototypes in the 60s, the Army though DI worked well enough they chose not to pursue it. Eugene Stoner was no idiot.


I've taken a completely dry rack-stored M16A2E3 and run 14-15 mags of incredibly filthy blanks through it, much of it on full auto without a single hiccup. Considering those were blanks that's near miraculous. If you lube the gun and keep it even reasonably clean (wipe down the bolt carrier group of gunk, the occasional boresnake every 500 or so rounds) the gun'll run and run hard if it's built properly.

Otherwise, yes, pretty much any in-spec lower will take any upper. Colt's older (mid 90s) "large pin" rifles will not, that was done deliberately, though there is a pin converter that costs a few bucks to fix that now.

[madman4570]

Guys,

Is there any DEPENDABLE/WELL BUILT /REASONABLE AR platformed guns out there in .308 Win. ??
Would like a 20" barrel and have it with open sights.

I see there is LWRC's but at $3500

Here is the deal-----my daughter absolutely loves shooting my Colt AR15's and she really shoots them well.
She likes the open sights as well.
Since she has been a good girl(also holding a 4.0 all the way through college)"Science major" I would like to get her a AR platform gun in a little larger caliber for (deer hunting) using a 5rd mag. (semi is legal here)
Was thinking the 6.8 SPC also but???????????????
Also don't want it too heavy she can't lift it.


Thoughts please--????????????

[Hobie]

I wanted to add a bit of my personal experiences.

As most of you know, there were a couple of different mfgs out there in the A1 age who weren't Colt. There were even still the experimental guns in the BCT companies. I used to be a range safety and then range officer for my brigade and we would sometimes have to expend (were ordered to expend) large quantities of ammo. Usually we only had a couple of guys and their weapons. I have seen M16A1s and A2s go through 10-20 magazines rather quickly, in hot and cold weather, in wet and dry, correctly lubed and not, some after having fired blank ammo (which is filthy as noted above). The guns simply didn't fail. They were still accurate afterwards. The standard was not less than 4 MOA and I can't remember having ever fired or seen a gun that shot less than 2 MOA, ever.

The guns held up in other ways as well. Some of my guys could break an anvil with a rubber mallet but they didn't break their rifles.

It seems to me that the problem (if there ever is one) is with the deliberately sub-standard parts, not the average or high quality components. Sure, you will have a bad part in any production run but these seem few and far between to me.

In the shop, every problem we have seen with the ARs is directly attributable to ham-handed modifications by the owner. Screwed up gas tubes, incorrectly assembled trigger assemblies and incorrectly installed buttstocks leading the way.

[jdad]

This has been a real informative thread. Thank you. It's a lot easier than filtering through all the useless blather, on some of the AR sites.

Fortunately, years ago I learned the hard way about buying "bargains" instead of "quality". I would love to support Noveske since they are a local Oregon company, but I'm not a professional, tactical competitor, or have pockets that deep.....just a shooter that appreciates quality. I'm just going to save up a little more and get an LMT. It's probably more than I need, but I really can't find anyone to say anything bad about them. I still have plenty of time since my shoulder is so mucked up.

[COSteve]

I've got 2 RRAs that I've had for years and they are fine for most everyone even though they don't do all the mil-spec stuff. Most of us aren't going into combat with our weapons and plan to keep them clean and well maintained. The mil-spec hardware is really important if you're talking about a full auto as that puts a lot of stress on them but the S&W, Bushmasters, and RRAs will work for most everyone else. Yes, there are some much more expensive one's out there but some are just counting on the name more than anything.

One thing the RRAs offer is their nice NM two stage trigger. Both my Elite CAR A4 (elite is their designation for a mid length gas system) and my A4 have them and they are terrific. There's a reason that they always have a wait but try some of the on-line dealers after you've worked out what you want as many have them in stock.

[GonnePhishin]

Next question: Can anyone recommend some websites where one could buy millspec lowers at reasonable prices, or would you just purchase from the respective websites (like LM&T)?

[Les Staley]

I have bought lowers from Krista's Firearms.. a complete lower with A2 stock and two stage Rock River National Match trigger at $300. She's a sweetheart to deal with.. Check Gunbroker .. just saw two complete Colt NIB uppers for $600 to $750.. push two pins and go shooting..

[tomtex]

I wonder how many RD's does it take, before things start falling off the SU 16C?

[madman4570]

Good info guys.
Thought about it and am going to get daughter a new Colt MT6700
Think when it comes down to it (everything concerned)best gun for her.

Now, how bout it for deer
Any wonder ammo out now that will do the deal!

[madman4570]

My buddy(owns a Gun Shop) just told me (I can still get a new MT6601 Colt)That is what I want plus the MT6700 barrel is 1-9 TR not the 1-7 TR
That is the ticket.(MT6601)
He also said if my daughter this year plans on using it at our shoots(Service rifle matches)a Colt 6700 will not qualify.
Service rifle category-------fixed handle/20" barreled/ and for Match comp category anything goes as long as it's a 20" barrel/up to the full blown race gun.

Glad I have friends that keep me straight!

That gun will last a lifetime!

Could give her one of my PREBAN Colt MT6601 twins????
Na I will buy her a new post ban one Hey, someday she will have them anyway!

If I get rid of Lucy then Linda will be sad or vise versa. (nope,can't separate them two lovely ladies).

[madman4570]

I wonder how many RD's does it take, before things start falling off the SU 16C?

Tom,

I know Kel-Tec way back in their day quoted that with their tiny pistols(I believe P11 and P40(which that one they don't produce anymore had a life expectancy of around 6,000 rds)for the total gun.
I know since back then they have been making constant improvements to their weapons and they should update their projected aprox. expectancy chart of guns if they are going to do that at all.(but also there is so many variables that the numbers can be different by how the owner uses/takes care of it etc.

Their long guns-------------------------------
Just a guess but I am thinking a good starting point like on their "C" model would be 10,000 rds(and there I am talking barrel wear etc.)providing the gun is well maintained/shot like most of us would shoot it/ I have to believe it would last a very long time.
10,000 rds for the average shooter that will own one(is a lifetime)


And if it don't------------------------------They are about the best in the business at the deal of--- (make me happy with service)
So if it don't last your lifetime----------They will fix it-------------------for FREE


Somewhere (I still have the mag)???
When they tested the Glock 17(9mm)guess how many that gun ran(and was still working)they gave up
If memory serves me right--------------------300,000rds
"zytel"--- polymer ----------isn't it wonderful ???

[MrMurphy]

Madman, if you really want to spoil the hell out of your daughter.


Get her a good, decent quality 5.56mm AR. 16" midlength flattop. A good scope and mount (LaRue LT104). In 5.56 it'll handle anything from small deer down, hogs, coyotes, Taliban, whatever.

If she does hunt regularly, add a second upper, 18" midlength gas system, in 6.5mm Grendel.

Properly loaded the 6.5 is the AR equivalent of a 7mm-08 or .270. Very flat shooting and hard hitting at long range. Elk at 300-400m if the shooter is competent is well within the round's capabilities (it was designed for long range) and anything below elk, no problems.

The 6.8 also works, though ballistically it's better closer in.

Since swapping uppers is 2 pins and about 10 seconds..... she can shoot 5.56 for fun and practice or light hunting (varmint/predator, etc) and swap uppers for bigger game.


In .308, the only AR i'd personally buy would be a LaRue OBR, which starts at about $3k. Because i've got nearly a thousand rounds through a dozen of them with about 10 scopes, day, night, suppressed and unsuppressed. They work. Every time. Sub minute to ranges you wouldn't believe (with a good shooter a 16" OBR will stay sub minute using Federal GMM out to 1100m+)

Alternatively a Knight's Armarment if the price was right (they're twice as expensive and perform about the same) or a Noveske.

[madman4570]

Madman, if you really want to spoil the hell out of your daughter.


Get her a good, decent quality 5.56mm AR. 16" midlength flattop. A good scope and mount (LaRue LT104). In 5.56 it'll handle anything from small deer down, hogs, coyotes, Taliban, whatever.

If she does hunt regularly, add a second upper, 18" midlength gas system, in 6.5mm Grendel.

Properly loaded the 6.5 is the AR equivalent of a 7mm-08 or .270. Very flat shooting and hard hitting at long range. Elk at 300-400m if the shooter is competent is well within the round's capabilities (it was designed for long range) and anything below elk, no problems.

The 6.8 also works, though ballistically it's better closer in.

Since swapping uppers is 2 pins and about 10 seconds..... she can shoot 5.56 for fun and practice or light hunting (varmint/predator, etc) and swap uppers for bigger game.


In .308, the only AR i'd personally buy would be a LaRue OBR, which starts at about $3k. Because i've got nearly a thousand rounds through a dozen of them with about 10 scopes, day, night, suppressed and unsuppressed. They work. Every time. Sub minute to ranges you wouldn't believe (with a good shooter a 16" OBR will stay sub minute using Federal GMM out to 1100m+)

Alternatively a Knight's Armarment if the price was right (they're twice as expensive and perform about the same) or a Noveske.

Now,
Do they make a 18" mid length gas system, in 6.5mm Grendel that I can buy directly without buying a second upper.(she can use one of my Colts for her shooting M1 shoots at the club)
Something you would consider a good gun without robbing Fort Knox
And do you think that round will be easy enough to get down the road(as easy as the rest at least)I could buy bulk or reload too.

That 6.5 sounds VERY interesting and would be kinda neat being a little different.

Thanks for the great knowledge you share! Dude, you certainly know a heck of a lot more than me about this stuff so(I will take it all in) What I am capable of

ps----thoughts?????????????
http://www.fortune3.com/alexarms/6_5_Gr ... Rifle.html

[MrMurphy]

https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defens ... -8spc.html

This, in 6.8mm SPC would also do extremely well. The 6.5 has a bit more 'oomph' further out (300+) where ballistically from what I understand the 6.8 has a bit more power closer in.

Both deliver nearly .308 performance out of a standard AR platform.

The 6.8 is more supported ammo-wise (Remington makes several rifles including bolt guns in it) and on downrange performance it's pretty much Ford vs Chevy. 6.8s have performed effectively on mule deer, I have a friend who uses his on hogs and deer out to 200m (furthest shot he's seen) extremely effectively, since it's a .277 round. Think of it as a semiauto .260 or .280 Remington. Around five or six manufacturers make 6.8, less make 6.5 so they'll never be quite as common as 5.56mm.

The 6.5 was designed by Alexander Arms, I don't remember offhand if anyone but them makes rifles in 6.5, though i think some do. Since the round will work in a standard AR magazine, very few parts need changing to upgrade an upper. New barrel, new bolt, not much else.

The 6.8 can use standard AR mags though they hold less (a 20 holds like 17 for example) and now 6.8-specific mags exist as well.

I would recommend a 6.8 upper (the DD above) or 6.5 upper from Alexander Arms on a Bravo Company Manufacturing lower with a collapsing stock. That would handle the majority of any hunting she would do short of moose/brown bear and some very bullet resistant type animals.

[olyinaz]

Madman: http://www.alexanderarms.com/index.php/products.html

I tried a large frame AR-10 type and I would not do it again. Stay with AR-15s and just find the upper in the caliber you need. I've not heard anything bad about Alexander Arms products and they originated the 6.5mm Grendel. I've a pal who has one and it's just a bit milder than 6.5 Mauser but it's out of an AR-15 with zero recoil. What's not to like? It's flat shooting and I would think it'd be excellent for deer etc.

For even more smack out of an AR-15 you could look to Accuracy Systems for a Winchester Super Short Magnum upper. .25 WSSM? Me likey.

Cheers,
Oly

[sore shoulder]

Oly I have been interested in those WSSM uppers ever since Oly Arms came out with them. Would like to see the WSSM cartridge in a factory offered .30. As long as you have to give up magazine capacity due to round size might as well go as big as you can and the .30 bullet selection is the largest. I would possibly settle for the .243.