10mm for pistols logically deserves greater popularity

[preventec47]

If you want a full size pistol ... some call them combat pistols,
there is no better than 10mm because there is no other caliber that offers as much energy that is widely commercially available for which major manufacturers make semi auto pistols for.
At the top end the 10mm shot from std pistols has way more
energy than the .45 and a little more than the 357mag with up to 17 round magazines available for the Glock 20.
At the same time the 10mm offers a flatter trajectory than the 9mm pistol when shooting 165gr or lighter bullets.

Glock makes the Glock 20 and many guys owning these guns have opted for longer 6 inch after market barrels and slides. This usually is for field hunting weapons.

The other beautiful aspect is the power versatility. You can down load or buy weak range ammo that shoots low power 40SW type loads or load up to the higher energy levels..

The only problem is that most regard combat size pistols
as too big for concealed carry.

Top loaded ammo from 5 inch barrels perform as follows:
200gr 1200 fps
180gr 1300 fps
165gr 1450 fps
155gr 1500fps

For range work or plinking, just knock 150 or 200 fps off all those loads. But seriously, even the top loads offer no more recoil than heavy 45 acp loads. The story about how the FBI rejected it is because of the frail women and male accountant/agents who could not handle this size weapon.
Most adults will have no problem with the size and recoil.

EAA also currently makes 10mm pistols in addition to Glock.

There are a couple of ammo companies that are now turning
out 10mm ammo at no higher prices than 45acp ammo.
I think Underwood Ammo is the best.

check these links out

http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/10/20/index.htm

http://www.glock.com/english/glock20.htm

http://www.gunblast.com/Glock20.htm

[olyinaz]

For reasons that are not immediately clear to me I find .40 S&W recoil to be a bit snappy compared to .45 ACP. Thus, I have always imagined 10mm to be even more so. With that in mind I have never pursued a 10mm. If you ae claiming that the recoil out of a 1911 is identical between .45 and 10mm, that is the first I've heard of that.

I have a hi-cap 1911 in .40 S&W and I have a heavy spring in it because I stoke it with Buffalo Bore +P .40 S&Ws. I would imagine that it's making less energy than a standard 10mm and I feel that it's consideraby sharper in the recoil dept. than my .45s shooting 230gr ammo. I think it's as much gun as I would really like to have in a full size auto pistol but I'm open to suggestion.

I think 10mm languishes for the same reason people prefer their snubbies in .38 vs. .357 - recoil. But hey, that's just my theory because I don't have one.

Cheers,
Oly

[Old Ironsights]

I like .357.

Thus, I like 10mm, which has similar energies.

But the problem with 10mm has always been the ammo. There just ain't enough of it to go around. You simply MUST reload &/or carry a whole bunch with you wherever you go because you just can't get it in quantity unless you are near a big-box sporting goods store.

Flip side is that a 10mm, because it is not a "military" cartridge, can be carried in some countries that limit handgun possession to "non-military cartridges only" - not that that is an issue for me.

But I like it.

Some day I'd like a Glock 10mm

[sore shoulder]

The best submachine gun ever was the MP5/10. Wish the round had caught on better for police and military. A 10mm carbine would be amazing. It's seeing a revival though. The gun store in Cody WY sells a LOT of G20's. Sportsmans Warehouse in Denver carries Federal AE ammo and Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, CorBon and Hornady support the 10mm with premium self defence and hunting rounds. I wish Marlin would reintroduce the camp carbine in 10mm using Glock mags, or maybe a KelTec Sub2000. Alas it's nice to dream lol. Oly has a 10mm AR but it uses proprietary mags and that turns me off.

[madman4570]

Absolutely love the 10mm

[buckeyeshooter]

you can have every one of those 10mm, I'll stick to a .45 thank you.

[Old Ironsights]

The best submachine gun ever was the MP5/10. ... I wish Marlin would reintroduce the camp carbine in 10mm using Glock mags, or maybe a KelTec Sub2000. Alas it's nice to dream lol. Oly has a 10mm AR but it uses proprietary mags and that turns me off.

Oh Yeah. Agree on all counts... Especially a Sub2010 (great name for it... Hello KelTec? I gots an ideer..)

[stretch]

The 10mm is a GREAT cartridge!

It has enough pop for protection from bipedal
critters and black bear. It's easy to load for.
Brass and 200 gr. bullets are the only components
that are hard to come by. Use the same dies as 40
S&W.

It has, IMHO, an undeserved reputation for
heavy recoil. It isn't as bad in an auto as a full-house
357 Magnum load is in a revolver. And it makes a bigger
hole......

I think it can be hard on guns, but engineers have
solved more difficult problems than that.

I'd like to see more guns chanbered in this round, as
well as a carbine along the lines of the old Marlin camp
carbine. THAT would be the ticket for an all-around
home/farm/camp/hunting carbine for use under 100 yards!

-Stretch

[sore shoulder]

you can have every one of those 10mm, I'll stick to a .45 thank you.

You're welcome.

Perspective.

10mm 650-750 fpe
.45ACP +p+ 450-550 fpe

Glock 20 15+1
Glock 21 13+1

16rnds x 750fpe=12,000fpe cumulative firepower
14rnds x 550fpe=7150fpe cumulative firepower

Summation.

Higher powered round.
More rounds.
Lighter weight.

Superior round.

Col Cooper agrees.

[preventec47]

[quote="stretch"]The 10mm is a GREAT cartridge!
Brass and 200 gr. bullets are the only components
that are hard to come by. -Stretch[/quote]

HUH ?
I get Starline brass from 4 or 5 different online mailorder
houses and I have never heard of anyone having a problem
with 200gr bullets. What kind or brand of bullets were you
looking for? There are at least 8 or 9 manufacturers of
bullets due to the popularity of the 40SW.

[O.S.O.K.]

Love my G20SF!

And besides being a better combat round, it also is more versitile in the hunting field.

Its really about the maximum practical power for an autoloader.

Yes, you can get Dessert Eagle and such but those really are beasts. The G20 is light and handy for open carry.

[gak]

I'm in the increasing minority of .40 S&W fans (what with 9mm improvements out there, blah, blah), having shot it for years and find it certainly is no slouch, but like that the 10mm has that much more energy yet but exact same capacity (being a ".40" also of course). Didn't Delta Force adopt the 10mm--and perhaps still uses? Any other special forces/ops?
The now discontinued DW 1911 Commander Bobtail (CBOB) .10mm always appealed to me.

[sore shoulder]

Love my G20SF!

And besides being a better combat round, it also is more versitile in the hunting field.

Its really about the maximum practical power for an autoloader.

Yes, you can get Dessert Eagle and such but those really are beasts. The G20 is light and handy for open carry.

DE is an overweight over priced unreliable pile of stuff. And when you do the cumulative firepower formula I did above, it loses.

[olyinaz]

It's hard not to like one of these:

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-perfect-10/

Oly

[O.S.O.K.]

Ooh, I do like that. However, for 1/4 the price, I'm very happy with my G20 with 6" Storm Lake barrel.

[KirkD]

200 grains at 1,200 fps .......... pretty hard to argue with that.

[COSteve]

The 10mm is a fantastic caliber that comes alive in a 6" barrel. High velocity Premium Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo in 6" barreled semi auto produces better velocities than the 357mag produces in a 6" revolver while using a larger diameter, heavier weight bullet (.40 cal 165grn vs .357 cal 158grn). Even with the better performance, a semi auto 10mm it is much easier to control due to the vastly superior grip design in an automatic vs any revolver, produces much faster followup shoots, can hold more ammo on board (my G20L holds triple the S&W 686's 6 rds), and many actually weighs less loaded than the 686 (my custom G20L w/o the magwell but with 17+1 rds weighs less than a 6" 686 with only 6rds).

My custom G20/21L with the 10mm barrel installed is a screaming performer and when you consider the advantages of a 6" slide to the mix, you have a serious firearm for anything you think you might want it for be it targets, SD, or hunting. Consider the advantages of the longslide / barrel combination over the stock G20 Glock.

The advantage of the 6" longslide: You get a 28% longer sight radius with iron sights over a standard slide and the extra weight helps one to hold on target more solidly and aim more precisely, especially when you use a FO narrow front sight.

The advantage of the 10mm 6" barrel: It produces an extra 100fps velocity with the same handloads; certainly not an inconsequential increase. Further, with a longer barrel one can effectively use a slower burning powder when handloading which will produce even higher velocities than fast burning pistol powders without excessive peak pressures.

The advantage of the 6" slide and barrel: Together they weigh 4.75 ozs more than the stock slide and barrel on a G20. This gives me a steadier, more solid hold and significantly reduces the muzzle rise even with my hottest loads. I'm more accurate with my G20L than any other pistol I own. As an example, I regularly shoot my custom G20L and my hot 165grn handloads using an unsupported weaver stance at our steel plates 200yds away.

To demonstrate the advantage of the longer barrel for a hunting outing, below are a few of examples of the velocities of my handloads I've cited here before using the slow burning Power Pistol powder and CCI LPM primers in my custom 6" G20L vs. my friend's stock G20 for comparison. I chrono'd these using an Oehler 35 set at 15' from the muzzle at our range which is 6,100ft above sea level on an 84° day for the first two and a 59° day for the last.

Custom 6" G20L - Handloaded 165grn Speer Gold Dots produced 1,589fps and 925ft/lbs. of muzzle energy
Stock G20 - Handloaded 165grn Speer Gold Dots produced 1,451fps and 771ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Custom 6" G20L - Handloaded 180grn Speer Gold Dots produced 1,479fps and 874ft/lbs. of muzzle energy
Stock G20 - Handloaded 180grn Speer Gold Dots produced 1,390fps and 772ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Custom 6" G20L - Handloaded 200grn Gas Check Hardcast produced 1,383fps and 849ft/lbs. of muzzle energy
Stock G20 - Handloaded 200grn Gas Check Hardcast produced 1,300fps and 750ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

[preventec47]

My favorite load is the 155gr round nose at 1500fps
I dont worry about no stinkin hollow points.

What I lust over is that EAA 6 inch barrel Hunter model

[stew71]

I need another caliber like I need another hole in my head.

[COSteve]

I need another caliber like I need another hole in my head.

For a serious woods gun that holds a decent on-board load and doesn't weigh a ton, the G20 is hard to beat. It can take all the abuse of being outdoors, is reliable as heck, and when loaded with some serious 200grn hardcast loads, will take down full grown elk.

No, I wouldn't wade into a fight with a large bear with it (in fact I wouldn't wade into that fight with any pistol) but it is a formidable weapon that can provide all the protection one should ask for from a handgun. If one needs any more power, then they should rightly be looking at a high power rifle or slug out of a shotgun.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

The 10mm is a fantastic caliber ...

I knew that post was coming eventually when I saw the thread title. Great post Steve with tons of data. For some reason I've always wanted a Les Baer 6" Longslide in 10mm but I never seem to have the $'s lying around.

[Mescalero]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
You know ,I have this really nice longslide.
YK has seen a picture of it.

[Rusty]

I've been thinking about a G20 for a while. With the added 6"barrel and slide it would be hard to beat. As I understand it the G20 can also be fitted with a .40 S&W barrel too. Can someone confirm or deny that?

[AJMD429]

How about a 10mm Ruger 96 - it uses a box/rotary magazine, so the 'rim' shouldn't be vital, and the action seems similar-enough to the Savage 99 that it could conceivably be made or modified to deal with the 10mm.

[preventec47]

COSTEVE said:
////////////////////////////////////////
Power Pistol powder and CCI LPM primers

Stock G20 - Handloaded 165grn Speer Gold Dots 1,451fps and 771ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Stock G20 - Handloaded 180grn Speer Gold Dots 1,390fps and 772ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Stock G20 - Handloaded 200grn Gas Check Hardcast 1,300fps and 750ft/lbs. of muzzle energy
//////////////////////////////////////////

I tried to send a private message but I dont think this forum supports them. I sure would appreciate your sharing your load recipes. Right now I only load with AA#7 and AA#9
I use CCI 300 primers. What are CCI LPM primers ? Does
that stand for "large pistol magnum" ?

[stretch]

I must be looking at the wrong catalogs, preventec - I hardly
ever find 200gr. bullets advertised, and rarely 10mm brass.

Okay - I'm not digging real deep a the moment - 'tis true.

Who's making 200 gr? And specifically, anyone making
such a bullet (.401 dia.) with a gas check?

Thanks!

-Tom

[COSteve]

COSTEVE said:
////////////////////////////////////////
Power Pistol powder and CCI LPM primers

Stock G20 - Handloaded 165grn Speer Gold Dots 1,451fps and 771ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Stock G20 - Handloaded 180grn Speer Gold Dots 1,390fps and 772ft/lbs. of muzzle energy

Stock G20 - Handloaded 200grn Gas Check Hardcast 1,300fps and 750ft/lbs. of muzzle energy
//////////////////////////////////////////

I tried to send a private message but I dont think this forum supports them. I sure would appreciate your sharing your load recipes. Right now I only load with AA#7 and AA#9
I use CCI 300 primers. What are CCI LPM primers ? Does
that stand for "large pistol magnum" ?

Yes, I use CCI 350s which are their Large Pistol Magnum primers. I find that I get better ignition and much more consistent velocities and therefore lower SDs. As to sharing my recipes, my 'nuclear' loads were worked up specifically for my custom Glock with it's tight chambered, stronger barrel and are in excess of SAAMI specs, however, strangely the primers shown only moderate flattening. In fact, I don't even own a Glock 10mm barrel.

I wouldn't recommend them in a stock Glock barrel because of it's generous chamber. Further, I don't routinely shoot them as they were more of an experiment that I only really use when loading up for a woods trip. I load my 165grn 'normal' hot loads in the 1,400fps range with my 6" barrel (the stock barrel would be down from that) and the heavier bullets down the same amount. I just did those to prove to myself that it could be done and find out how significant the recoil was. It turned out the recoil was almost . . . . disappointing because it wasn't nearly as stout feeling as I thought it would be. The flexing frame and heavier slide / barrel really soak up and spread out the recoil.

I also don't share these loads because they are over spec (but show little if any pressure signs) and will leave it to each reloader to decide how fast they want to push their loads.

[86er]

The Bureau did not stray away from the 10mm because Agents could not shoot it. It was not a recoil issue. The first handguns at the time were S&W 59/69 series. One issue was the large grip diameter that did not fit hands universally. The second issue was the lever on the left side (whether safety, decock, both). The grip diameter and safety were counter-productive to the then new shooting platform being taught which included the thumbs forward/wrist straight grip. Another consideration was the weight when fully loaded. At the time, ammo was also somewhat limited and expensive even on a govt procurement contract. The FBI shoots the same ammo for duty carry and qual which is 4X per year plus add-on training. The bullets performed well within a certain velocity range. The Firearms Research Center worked with S&W to address the problems. Smaller grip, eliminate the lever on the gun, maintain the velocity needed to make the bullets perform but forego excess and decrease the price over the course of the contract. Hence the 40 S&W was born. Later, the Glock pistol platform won other govt contracts. The piggy-back concept allows other Agencies to mimic an existing govt contract. Price, reliablility, quantity, transistion training and simplicity were offered by the Glock so the contract was piggy-backed for general Agents, with the units/teams using other weapons as they saw fit.

[preventec47]

[quote="COSteve"] As to sharing my recipes,

I also don't share these loads because they are over spec (but show little if any pressure signs) and will leave it to each reloader to decide how fast they want to push their loads.[/quote]

COSteve -you ought to join this forum that specifically exists for 10mm reloaders and lots of
load data is shared.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67

If the link does not work it is the `10mm Reloaders sub forum at Glocktalk.com

[FWiedner]

I'm still thinking that the 10mm is another answer to a question that was never asked.

[K1500]

Trying to describe why the 10 is good to someone who doesn't have one is hard. It is a great round, every bit as versatile as the .357 but with a bigger/heavier projectile and more energy. If your hands fit the guns it is chambered in, there is no better choice for a do-it-all auto caliber.

The 10mm recoils less than the .357. If you can handle the blast and recoil of the .357, you can handle the 10 no problem. A Glock 20sf hold 16 rounds that are more potent than a .357 that holds 6. It is cheaper, lighter, more durable, and easier to carry. If a Glock isn't your cup of tea, the 1911 comes in as many flavors as your pocketbook will stand. A S&W 610 is one of the best wheelguns you can own.

Ammo costs no more than 45 ACP, and can be reloaded cheaper than 45. What's not to like?

[COSteve]

As to sharing my recipes,

I also don't share these loads because they are over spec (but show little if any pressure signs) and will leave it to each reloader to decide how fast they want to push their loads.

COSteve -you ought to join this forum that specifically exists for 10mm reloaders and lots of
load data is shared.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=67

If the link does not work it is the `10mm Reloaders sub forum at Glocktalk.com

I was a Glocktalk member for years but they got too politically correct about 4-5 years ago so I quit it. Some of my posts are still visible under another name.

[kaschi]

The 10mm is a superb pistol round. My S&W 1006 is built like a tank and is a perfect sized piece. I had always hoped that the CZ97 would someday be chambered for it but it has not happened yet.