Sorry, another noob AR question/comparison

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:29 am

Even I am seriously considering an AR and have handled almost every product out there. I think

I've got it narrowed down to these 2.

The standard S&W's (not the "sport") appear to be well built, priced right, and owner comments seem positive. The LMT rifles seem to get superior praise, from most everyone, and do seem to be fit & finished a little better. Is there really that much difference in build quality, for the price, between the two? I'm just looking for above average target/plinking accuracy and 100% reliability.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:51 am

If I were interested in an AR I would build my own to my personal specs rather than just accept whatever the OEM has put on from their lowest bidder....

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:08 am

I`ve had a few and the one i have now is a Bushmaster, it has never failed me in any respect. I had a DPMS that was a nice gun but not the quality of a Bush IMO, trigger was terrible and the collapsible stock was a lot looser fit than the Bushmaster. I`ve handled a couple Smiths and did not find them as tight as the Bushmasters either.
That`s all i can add.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:18 pm

What you get with the top-dollar ARs is a greater likelihood of a good rifle right out of the box; however, this does not mean you cannot get a fine AR for a lot less money. It helps to have many examples to choose from.

You see, most if not all lower-priced ARs are "parts guns", made up of parts from various sources. Thanks to manufacturing tolerances, this means the rifle you get might be a sloppy nightmare, but it also might be a well-fitted, accurate gem, the result of a fortuitous collection of parts that fit well together. Find 5 or 6 budget-priced ARs together for comparison and you can generally come up with a darned good gun for a third the cost, or less, of a top-end rifle.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:30 pm

Friend of mine has a Bushmaster varminter, it will shoot with the best of them, if I needed (wanted?) an AR I sure would be happy with one just like his.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:04 pm

If you have the time and skill, there is more to building an AR than just assembling the parts, building your own is the way to go. Skill I've got, time on the other hand is in short supply. So if you are going to buy a factory built I'd like to recommend Stag. Prices are reasonable (they've kept them that way, I think they figured out selling a whole bunch for less money is better than selling a few for more) and the quality is there. Their parent company CMT makes many of the internal parts that go into quite a few of the other brands.

And of course, in my case, they make lefties. Thank you Stag.

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:13 pm

I have a Bushmaster A2 20" HBAR and have no complaints about mine.

RustyJr

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:32 pm

jdad,
I teach a patrol rifle class at our range. I get to see several different brands and accessories. My personal work rifle is a Bushmaster and it serves it's purpose. Most are comparible but I was really impressed with the trigger on the Rock River Arms. It was very smooth and crisp. I can cut the size of my groups almost in half at 100 yards with it. There are so many manufacturers now and variations it's hard to keep up. For target and plinking you may want a longer barrel. They have freefloated barrels and match triggers on some models. Whatever you choose, have fun.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:58 pm

Whatever You do,do it soon while prices are low. I don't see them staying there. All it takes is for BO to burp and drive them back up.
Perry

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:15 pm

I will jump in as I have a strong back group in these as I work on them daily. Just a little on me and I am by no means touting my resume. I am a Combat Arms Instructor in the AF and have been teaching shooting for the last 13 years. I teach on everything from M9 pistol to Mk19, M2, M107's and M24's. I am also a certified armorer on those weapons. This is not to be confused with what a Army armorer does. I am also cert to preform sub-depot maint on these weapons systems.

When it comes to AR's these days, 95% of the time you are paying for a name. Most AR receivers made in the U.S. are made by 3 different companies. They are then stamped with another companies name. This isn't always the case as some companies do make their own lowers, but they are few. Example, Spikes tactical lowers are made by Aero Precision. A Spikes complete lower with M4 style stock will set you back $250 to $275. That same lower that has Aero Precision stamp will cost $149 even though the same company makes both. This practice is consistent across the board. Same goes for uppers, bolt carrier groups and barrels. Some guys swear by Colt, but others by LMT. In the end if it is truly made from mil-spec parts, its all the same.

On a side note. If your looking at wanting one, DO IT NOW. The closer we get to this November, the more these will be. This is the cheapest you will ever see. Just my $.02
As far as fit and finish, I have seen top makers put out some serious garbage. I mostly deal with Colts and FN's and I have seen a fair share of their guns that should have never left the factory. Barrels were too tight, sights canted, pistol grips fall off, bound springs etc.

Your most critical parts in the AR are your lower receiver, lower parts group and barrel. Everything else is just gravy. If you have a mil-spec lower, parts group and barrel, your gun will go bang when it needs to. I can and have built very accurate AR's for myself and others for under $650. Like others have said, it is cheaper to build it yourself. You do need some specialized tools like 1/16 punch, vise block, torque wrench, barrel wrench but you may be able to borrow these items. It's not hard to do and you can find instructions on the net. However, there are many folks out there selling AR's built form various parts they have found. You should avoid these unless you really know what your getting. We call those Frankenguns. They are just a hodge podge that someone put together. If your not interested in doing it yourself, I would strongly suggest purchasing a 100% factory made rifle.

If you have any questions that I may be able to answer, just PM me. I also have all of the tools (personal, not Uncle Sam's

) to put one together and would assemble for free.

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:18 pm

pwl44m wrote:Whatever You do,do it soon while prices are low. I don't see them staying there. All it takes is for BO to burp and drive them back up.
Perry

YES. If you want one, now is the time. The closer we get to November, the more these will go up. Just my $.02.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Most of the LEO's I hang with have an AR patrol rifle in either Colt, S&W M&P, Stag, Bushmaster, or DPMS...
for me I still like the Remington 870 Police Magnum...old school...rack-point-click-bang... :)

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Mich hunter wrote:I will jump in as I have a strong back group in these as I work on them daily. Just a little on me and I am by no means touting my resume. I am a Combat Arms Instructor in the AF and have been teaching shooting for the last 13 years. I teach on everything from M9 pistol to Mk19, M2, M107's and M24's. I am also a certified armorer on those weapons. This is not to be confused with what a Army armorer does. I am also cert to preform sub-depot maint on these weapons systems.

When it comes to AR's these days, 95% of the time you are paying for a name. Most AR receivers made in the U.S. are made by 3 different companies. They are then stamped with another companies name. This isn't always the case as some companies do make their own lowers, but they are few. Example, Spikes tactical lowers are made by Aero Precision. A Spikes complete lower with M4 style stock will set you back $250 to $275. That same lower that has Aero Precision stamp will cost $149 even though the same company makes both. This practice is consistent across the board. Same goes for uppers, bolt carrier groups and barrels. Some guys swear by Colt, but others by LMT. In the end if it is truly made from mil-spec parts, its all the same.

On a side note. If your looking at wanting one, DO IT NOW. The closer we get to this November, the more these will be. This is the cheapest you will ever see. Just my $.02
As far as fit and finish, I have seen top makers put out some serious garbage. I mostly deal with Colts and FN's and I have seen a fair share of their guns that should have never left the factory. Barrels were too tight, sights canted, pistol grips fall off, bound springs etc.

Your most critical parts in the AR are your lower receiver, lower parts group and barrel. Everything else is just gravy. If you have a mil-spec lower, parts group and barrel, your gun will go bang when it needs to. I can and have built very accurate AR's for myself and others for under $650. Like others have said, it is cheaper to build it yourself. You do need some specialized tools like 1/16 punch, vise block, torque wrench, barrel wrench but you may be able to borrow these items. It's not hard to do and you can find instructions on the net. However, there are many folks out there selling AR's built form various parts they have found. You should avoid these unless you really know what your getting. We call those Frankenguns. They are just a hodge podge that someone put together. If your not interested in doing it yourself, I would strongly suggest purchasing a 100% factory made rifle.

If you have any questions that I may be able to answer, just PM me. I also have all of the tools (personal, not Uncle Sam's ) to put one together and would assemble for free.

I appreciate the offer, to loan the tools, but I don't think I will be able to do much assembling of anything. Unfortunately, it looks about guaranteed that I will be going under the knife really soon. The MRI showed my left shoulder has a torn Labrum, Biceps Tendon, and Sub Scapular Tendon. It will then be another 3-4 months of rehab. I've gone from being able to do 12 full extension, overhand pullups, on the rock wall finger tabs, to not even being able to curl 15 pounds pain free. I haven't been able to painlessly shoulder a rifle since October. I do want to get something now because I do foresee November and that's kind of my reason for asking originally.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:20 pm

I chose the LMT for three reasons. The barrel is heavier duty, doesn't have the barrel cut so is stiffer, the monolithic upper is one piece, not a bunch of parts put together, and the gas system. Also got five mags with the purchase. Just in from shooting and two hundred rounds and no problems.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:58 pm

jdad,
Git it fixed as soon as possible, thats no shape to be in if the balloon goes up.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:00 pm

Get a stripped lower and upper, and part them out yourself - you'll save money and learn about the gun. Bushmaster sells quality stuff. Hard to go wrong with a 20" upper heavy barrel. The shorter gas systems are harder on the action.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:16 pm

Of the two you selected-------------LMT

My choice -------(other than my kel-Tec

)----------Colt!
They been doing it forever and if you want to spend the cash find a preban model 6601(and a NIB one if possible for cool factor)Green label

Have over 12000 rds through my one and other than cleaning it still holds within 1MOA off sandbags at 100yds.(open sights)
Also no jamming issues. (other one,bought a twin set in 1992, has same accuracy with only 3000 rds through it---always perfect)
When they see Colt(you don't have to explain why this and that.)Its just a Colt
If not the 6601----------(models 6400C and the 6700 aren't bad either)

But really the others (don't use/shoot so JMHO) have not seen how they hold up after 20 years and 1000's of rds! (probably well?)
Good Luck

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:59 pm

Pisgah wrote:What you get with the top-dollar ARs is a greater likelihood of a good rifle right out of the box; however, this does not mean you cannot get a fine AR for a lot less money. It helps to have many examples to choose from.

You see, most if not all lower-priced ARs are "parts guns", made up of parts from various sources. Thanks to manufacturing tolerances, this means the rifle you get might be a sloppy nightmare, but it also might be a well-fitted, accurate gem, the result of a fortuitous collection of parts that fit well together. Find 5 or 6 budget-priced ARs together for comparison and you can generally come up with a darned good gun for a third the cost, or less, of a top-end rifle.

Bingo.

And I might add that I find a mid-length gas system carbine to be about the ultimate size when it comes to an AR-15.

Please resist the urge to tart the daggum thing up with all kinds of bling and tacticool garbazjhe such that it become a huge joke every time you pull it out.

Just my 2¢ worth...

Oly

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:13 pm

All the dealers I talk to including the one I work for are saying that their distributors are telling them that stuff is "flying off the shelves" and to order now for the usual fall ammo cycle, etc. I believe we will see another ammo/component shortage AND AR buying frenzy and have in fact been seeing people start to "get their's while the getting is good". Shows here have REALLY good attendance and people are buying. Women are buying ahead as well. Seriously. If you want it and can afford it, get it now.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:23 pm

My dealer pointed this out to me today. $1000 + the sight of your choice + free shipping......+ 4 month lead time.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm? ... ory_id=462

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:45 pm

I believe S&W has a gun that costs about $600 at most dealers. You can't beat that unless you can find one used. I thought I was lucky to get my old SP1 carbine for $500 back in 1984! That would be about $1100 today.

Mr. Murphy noted that a few companies make parts for lots of other assemblers. A local manufacturer does the frame forgings (not the machine work) for many makes of AR type rifles. Nothing is changed but the ship to address on the pallets of blanked forgings.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:50 am

Most of this thread is like listening to race car mechanics talking about esoterica of their trade. To someone who never had an AR, it's strings of acronyms that don't ring a bell. It's interesting but it's still a problem trying to figure out what's what, what to buy, what it costs, and what NOT to pay. I looked up Stag and they're around $1500.

That's about six thousand rounds of 12ga ammo. That's more than I am willing to commit right now, for a gun I would hope to NEVER NEED TO USE.

The ONLY reason I'm thinking about getting a battle rifle is because guys on this forum that I have a lot of respect for are saying it's the right thing to do, and the right time to do it.

I think I would buy an SU16C today if I found an affordable one, whatever that means, because I don't think the .223 cares too much where it came from. And it appeals because it disappears so easily. And it is accurate. And reliable.

The PLR is available from CDNN at a reasonable price. With optics it would be a decent launcher if it's a reliable gun. And it's about half to a third of the cost of an AR........

I assume this a joke to serious AR users. But they are selling them to someone.

I realize that the ubiquitous AR platform has been transforming itself into the current sporting rifle of choice... but I don't sport shoot vermin and wouldn't choose .223 for deer hunting... I already have that sorted out.

BUT, and this is big, lots of guys on this forum that I respect are saying that I need to get an AR RIGHT NOW. There are a million choices. I could build one. I get that. And I could. But I wouldn't know whether I did a good job or not. I could throw a ton of money into one and still wouldn't know anything about it. It would be easier to buy an AK.

There are ARs in Wal-Mart now. But I don't have a clue if they're decent guns or just role-player fantasies. And I don't know what to look for. And I don't expect the lady behind the counter to know any more than I do.

There may be others in my shoes. Here's what would be helpful: a list of links to particular models of particular guns with a list of what to pay, or what NOT to pay. It appears to be a sellers market, buyer beware. Overpaying for a shootin' iron means depleating the ammo budget. Speaking of ammo, what is the recommended source and pricing of case lots? What is the benchmark price/per/shot? And what is the "right" ammo for the gun?

Having these answers would be a long step in the right direction for uninformed battle rifle shoppers.

wal-mart shoppers, there's a price reduction on battle rifles on isle 13, please wait until you are outdoors before you commence firing...............................

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:06 pm

At the price, I would give the Kel-Tec a try.
madman4570 seems to like his.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:53 pm

If anything, get the lower right now. That is the part that you will have to fill out the 4473 on.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:28 pm

Thunder 50,
That is a GREAT idea for those caught in a budget crunch.

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:14 pm

I have a chart I managed to save prior to it being censored. It compared all the major AR players and their offerings. Far and away, the Colt and BCM (Bravo Company) were shown to be the best.

Having said that, I would offer that build quality trumps name and parts. Looking at the overall assembly methods really separates the plinkers from the warfare tools. 98% of us would be served equally by either, but based on a worse case scenario, I would consider BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense the primary choices.

Civilian versions that would be acceptable would be S&W (like mine), more than adequate, based on the previously mentioned criteria.

I am relatively new to the AR game, but I have done a LOT of research and the results are always the same...build quality, build consistency and good parts.

If I had the chance, I would have built it myself or had someone help me. Cheaper option and you could build a custom, top quality piece.

BTW, the PLR looks kind of cheesy BUT it circumvents any laws requiring you to keep loaded mags separate from your rifle, in a vehicle. It is a handgun and is, therefore, exempt from that law...

Great truck gun!

Just my $0.02....

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:01 am

The PLR/Su-16 is good for about 2 mags at most and then it'll have issues. it's NOT a high round count gun. You may think 60 rounds is a lot but ammo goes in a hurry once it starts going both ways. I would sooner pick a Mini-14 than that and that's saying quite a bit. (And i'd rather have an AK over either if I couldn't get an M16-platform rifle).

After getting out i worked for a manufacturer. Take this for what it's worth.

Most lowers are indeed remarked and many makers use the same bits (DPMS lower parts kits tend to be common).

An S&W M&P15 (Not the sport) will serve you well and hold up under a lot of shooting in a hurry. They're not as good quality-wise as an LMT, LaRue, Noveske, BCM or Colt, but they do well. One training company ran 14,000 rounds through three of them in a week under field conditions without failure. That's without cleaning, just add lube.

If you can afford about a grand, get a Colt or BCM or Daniel Defense. A little more, a LaRue or Noveske are milspec-or-better (improved accuracy and quality control).

I wouldn't touch a DPMS. Rock River or Bushmaster, if I inspected it BEFORE buying, i'd contemplate if none of the above were available, the same with Stag. I know what to look for and what not to. As to "The Chart" I know the guy who made it, and it's pretty correct in showing what manuf. actually do come close to (or meet or exceed) the government spec.

Most of the smaller companies I'd skip.

My personal rifle is an S&W with about as much in accessories on it as the rifle cost. It's held up fine for the amount of shooting I do (a fair bit) and while it's not my old issued Colt, it's yet to have any malfunctions not ammo related. Reliability is somewhat about the lower. Accuracy is entirely about the upper and how everything fits. Reliability issues can sometimes be affected by the upper (overgassing or parts not built right, or the most notorious, unstaked gas keys turning the gun into a single shot) but a correctly built major brand AR should be able to be taken out of the box, given a squirt of lube and hammer out a couple hundred rounds without any issues.

I am neither an armorer or a gunsmith, but i've shot most of the major AR makers out there and am familiar with the vast majority of accessories. Feel free to PM me with questions. I don't get paid to answer them anymore, but I'll give you the bare truth as I know it.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:20 am

thanks, sounds like sound info. the amount of hype in the press makes the whole class of guns sound like women's shoe sellers......

nobody mentioned the ruger 5.56 ... any opinions? do they manuf. their lowers? funny thing is it's the only one I've handled in the shop. they seem solid, and spendy.

OTOH, it's less than an ounce of gold to be sufficiently fitted up.

thanks, Grizz

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:31 am

MrMurphy wrote:The PLR/Su-16 is good for about 2 mags at most and then it'll have issues. it's NOT a high round count gun. You may think 60 rounds is a lot but ammo goes in a hurry once it starts going both ways.

Come on guys if we are going to give advice(let's)give honest/accurate/real advice.
Not going to get into a big knock out drag out(re-read Hobies advice being civil again)

But that (absolutely)is not true.
Two mags

OMG(please provide exact details)of those and numbers sampled???

But just for everyone's sake I will go out back TODAY and blow off (3)40rd mags in quick order just to be sure nothing has changed.

Funny that my SU16-C/My brothers SU16-C/my daughters boy friends SU16-C/and finally my best friends SU16-C all shoot ammo out of our (20rd)((30rd)and---------(40rd) preban mags(rapid fire)like no tomorrow. Honest no bullsh##

I don't have a problem saying/judging a item but that is absolute fiction/and spreading that really causes people to get screwed.

Only issue that it is possible to have is with the older non-chrome lined light barreled SU16(Bravo Model)with intense high volume rapid fire the barrel can heat up more than some of the others causing the groups to widen.

If you guys on here believe that how bout believing my Ruger #1 45-70 can only handle cowboy loads and anything else will blow it up.

Also my Marlin 336C can't shoot more than 3rds within 10mins or the lever will fall off.
A gun only good for 60rds??? WoW!

Read and judge for yourselves from someone that actually tests guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaqPowTdqtg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOsrpJXfIoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC9MnUGe ... ure=relmfu

Here is Kel-Tecs phone number(call them and ask them if their SU16 can handle more than 2 Mags

)

321.631.0068

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:50 pm

I'm an NCO, fire team leader and range safety in a light infantry unit that puts thousands of rounds downrange almost every month. I have built and owned several AR's over a span of 27 years and read volumes on the subject. I will share my current thought's and beliefs on the Stoner AR.

There are milspec, and there are shooter grade AR's.

There are many shooter grade AR's that claim to be milspec and simply are not.

One clear indication a rifle is NOT milspec is if it has a 1/9 twist, which was NEVER a mil twist EVER.

Many lower receivers are indeed made by the same contractor, LMT. That does not mean by any stretch that a gun built on one is milspec.

There are several key things that go into a milspec rifle.

Magnetic Particle inspection on every bolt and barrel. Some/most are simply batch tested.

How the gas key is staked. I just recently had to put some red loctite on my son in laws gas key screws because after around 1K rounds the screws backed out and the weapon became a single shot because it was not properly staked. All staking is not equal. This was a gun built from a supposedly milspec kit, which after making several repairs to I can say is unequivocally NOT milspec.

Type of barrel steel. I can't recall specs off the top of my head, but I know it when I see it.

Parkerised under the front sight post. If the gun gets wet at all and moisture gets under the gas block there is no way to clean it without removing the gas block.

Chrome lined bolt carrier, chamber and barrel.

Those are just some of many things to be aware of, a book could be written on the subject.

Colt makes the ONLY true milspec. I used to not think so. After a lot more experience with Colt's, and many years of building and using other's, I realized I was wrong.

Several makers have upped their game as the knowledge on the internet of what exactly constitutes a milspec rifle has increased. There are charts out there of exactly what that is.

I used to think there were no significant differrences between Colt and the other makers. I was wrong, very wrong. After my experiences as a fire team leader in a light infantry unit, and having built several AR's, I can state unequivocally and back it up with facts that Colt makes a superior rifle to almost anyone except maybe Noveske.

Before piston guns start getting tossed in the mix, after being a range safety for my infantry unit for several years now and seeing 10's of thousands of rounds go through our M4's, I have yet to see malfunctions that cannot be attributed to magazines. I have seen bolts and carriers caked with more carbon than you would believe from shooting thousands of rounds of blanks where ALL the gas goes through the gas system, since the barrel is blocked completely, and the guns keep running. I've never seen the mythical case head separation from the supposed timing issue with the shorter gas tube on a carbine. The piston is an answer to a mythical problem that does not exist. A gas impingement design will always be more accurate. Eugene Stoner knew what he was doing. He could have made a piston gun. Well, actually he did, the AR18. But I digress

As to configurations of the AR, my personal favorite is an A2. I would hand over my issue M4 in an instant for an M16A2.

Why?

The sites are always there. Our Aimpoints are nice, but when they go down (everything with a bettery has that very real possibility) and you need to use your backup rear iron sights, better hope the previous thousand rounds you put down range didn't loosen the mounting screw on your rail mounted detachable rear sight. Remember anything that is DE-tachable can and will become DE-tached at the wrong time. I have personally experienced this and it sucks bad enough at the range when you are trying to zero the sights, much less in combat. Which explains why our unit SOP is everything attached to our M4 rails is secured with wire, 550 cord, or both.

The A2 site radius is longer allowing much better accuracy.

The longer A2 20" barrel gives a much higher velocity which is extremely important for such a small caliber when considering effective range and how the bullet performs. It also gives higher velocity with the tighter 1/7 twist rate. Both together are a superior combination.

The A2 buttstock has a compartment for the cleaning kit, it is always with the rifle, not on your kit or in your pack which you may or may not have with you when you need the cleaning kit.

The idea that the shorter rifle is easier to use is a fallacy. I've done the same exact things with an M16 that I do with an M4 and notice no discernible difference.

I love the A2 HBAR. Best configuration ever for an AR. My very first AR was an HBAR. I have a Burris 4x in Burris Z-rings on an A.R.M.S. carry handle mount that was originally mounted in 1990 on my HBAR. It has NEVER lost it's zero after hundreds of times being dismounted from the carry handle and thousands upon thousands of rounds through it. If I want to mount an Aimpoint, A.R.M.S. makes a cantilevered forward mount that I have used on an issue M16 that in my opinion was very superior in the forward mounted position than the rear mounting on an M4.

The "magic" bullet for the AR is a 74-77gr HP match. SpecOps uses a 77gr Sierra "open tip" (Geneva friendly nomenclature) match bullet loaded by Black Hills who supplies this as the Mk262 to the military. Those weights are used in competition regularly by people shooting matches at 1000 meters offhand. It's one of the reasons Special Forces never adopted the 6.8 SPC.

Hope this helps.

PS, some trivia. The very first AR configuration was issued to Special Forces early in the Vietnam war as a Colt AR15 with a 1/14 twist, which is where all the stories of tumbling bullets came from because the slow twist rate would cause key-holing of the target past about 50 yards I believe. The common misconception is the AR is the civilian version. The first AR was military issue, and only after it had gone through several changes was a civilian model AR created. I have personally used M16's with Colt AR15 stamped lowers that had A2 re-stamped over the A1 on the receiver when the rifle was armory reconfigured to A2 specs.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:02 pm

My only experience with the SU16 series was the early production models. And yes, i would not personally choose to put more than 2 full mags in a hurry through one. Groups will open, the gun will heat up, and being a Keltec and not exactly high quality to begin with......sorry, I value keeping my body parts attached. I would never consider the SU series in any way equal to an AR. It has a role, and it fills it, but it's not the same.

Sore Shoulder, we'll have to disagree on the M4/M16. I carried the A2 on and off for a bit and the M4 full time. I also carried the 249 quite a bit.

I operated almost exclusively urban (on a base) working around buildings, vehicles and aircraft. For a field rifle (in your case being light infantry) the 20" barrel doesn't change much, though having been in a unit with 4'9" females and a 6'8" male issued the same weapon, no fixed stock should ever be issued again. We are not all the same size. Add in armor, and it's worse. The NATO forces we operated with were all massively jealous of our collapsing stocks to tailor the weapon to the shooter. I'm 5'9 and an A2 in armor is a bit long for me. Anyone smaller (and we had a lot of them) were stuck. When we did do field work (spent some time in the hills at Baumholder) a full size rifle wouldn't have mattered much except once we got into doing MOUT.

The shorter barrel did come in handy working around buildings and especially vehicles, which for us, was 95% of the time, and while infantry work can get pretty hairy, out of all the infantrymen I have known (and the many, many Security Forces troops I worked with) and the many others I dealt with once I got out with a manufacturer, it's personal responsibility. If the sight is properly tightened and locktited, it's not coming off. If Joe the 19 yr old PFC "armorer" put it on......double check your stuff. Once airborne ops come into play of course, all bets are off. I've heard the horror stories.

I agree on the 1/9. My S&W is one, because I had just gotten out during the Obamascare and there was nothing else available other than RRA's and I wouldn't go that route.

Mine will eventually be upgraded (turning the S&W into a coyote gun and buying better) but for now, it serves.

As to ARMS mounts....... you've been lucky. Having handled over a thousand broken or malfunctioning ones..... That's not just talk. Glad it's worked for you.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:15 pm

MrMurphy wrote: Sore Shoulder, we'll have to disagree on the M4/M16. I carried the A2 on and off for a bit and the M4 full time. I also carried the 249 quite a bit.

I operated almost exclusively urban (on a base) working around buildings, vehicles and aircraft. For a field rifle (in your case being light infantry) the 20" barrel doesn't change much

As light Infantry almost all our training involves aircraft or vehicles as transport, mostly by Blackhawk and C130's, and we do extensive urban ops since most of our work has been centered around that in recent years. We also operate from Humvees and other transport vehicles, and I was a a SAW gunner for a couple years and did MOUTT training and reflexive fire with them. Using an A2 in close quarters is handled by turning the gun slightly sideways and allowing the stock to go over your shoulder as you bring it up. For CQB you will still be able to aquire your target using the front sight, you are not even looking through the rear.

As far as females and how the weapon fits them, as Infantry, color me unconcerned.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:18 pm

MrMurphy wrote: As to ARMS mounts....... you've been lucky. Having handled over a thousand broken or malfunctioning ones..... That's not just talk. Glad it's worked for you.

Were those the carry handle mounts, and if so, were they the cantilevered mounts or the top mounts?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:46 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote: As to ARMS mounts....... you've been lucky. Having handled over a thousand broken or malfunctioning ones..... That's not just talk. Glad it's worked for you.
Were those the carry handle mounts, and if so, were they the cantilevered mounts or the top mounts?

So you consider for example the Colt Pre-ban 20" Match HBARs #6601 (1/7 twist rate good rifles)both mine being 1992 mfg consecutive S/N's

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:56 pm

madman4570 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote: As to ARMS mounts....... you've been lucky. Having handled over a thousand broken or malfunctioning ones..... That's not just talk. Glad it's worked for you.
Were those the carry handle mounts, and if so, were they the cantilevered mounts or the top mounts?
So you consider for example the Colt Pre-ban 20" Match HBARs #6601 (1/7 twist rate good rifles)both mine being 1992 mfg consecutive S/N's

Yes.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:34 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote: As to ARMS mounts....... you've been lucky. Having handled over a thousand broken or malfunctioning ones..... That's not just talk. Glad it's worked for you.
Were those the carry handle mounts, and if so, were they the cantilevered mounts or the top mounts?
So you consider for example the Colt Pre-ban 20" Match HBARs #6601 (1/7 twist rate good rifles)both mine being 1992 mfg consecutive S/N's
Yes.

You sound like you have been around the block with this stuff

Do you have any knowledge on the NEW Kel-Tec HB SU16C that you can share?
I know these guns are not like the Colt and if war breaks out I have those and M1's/M1A's/Ak's/SKS's/Ruger Mini's but what about using it for at most Urban protection etc.medium weight barrel both barrel and chamber chrome lined.
I put 3 mags of 40rds threw mine today(2011 SU16-C) and honestly the grouping seem darn good.
The barrel did not seem any hotter than my AK's or Ruger gets?
To be truthful though I don't do that to my Colts

Thanks!

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:41 pm

Well sore you were somewhat lucky being infantry, but we had our fair share of big and small guys, the smallest troop I had (male) was 5'5" Guamanian guy, so the same problem was there.

The cantilever mount is hard to screw up, whoever makes it. No, the thousand or so broke mounts were all rail mounts of various types.

As to the urban/outdoors.... yes, you can run a 20" doing it, but I'll still take a shorter barrel every time if I can get it for the work we did. I'm familiar with the turn-the stock thing, but with the targets we were protecting, absolute accuracy was paramount, and aiming over the top of the barrel vs using an M68... well, we didn't have to unless it was worst-case scenario and the spare A2s got issued. Every man/woman in the unit not running a beltfed had an M4, and before that, we had A2s. They didn't make the switch lightly. I wasn't infantry, so i won't tell you how to do your job, though we had our own training in similar things, but for the work we did, 14.5" barrels were better than 20". In a few cases, we had to go to pistols (aircraft cockpits being one during aircraft recapture drills).

Any of the preban Colts are fine. Not a great fan of the heavy barrels, but they work.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:09 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Well sore you were somewhat lucky being infantry, but we had our fair share of big and small guys, the smallest troop I had (male) was 5'5" Guamanian guy, so the same problem was there.

The cantilever mount is hard to screw up, whoever makes it. No, the thousand or so broke mounts were all rail mounts of various types.

As to the urban/outdoors.... yes, you can run a 20" doing it, but I'll still take a shorter barrel every time if I can get it for the work we did. I'm familiar with the turn-the stock thing, but with the targets we were protecting, absolute accuracy was paramount, and aiming over the top of the barrel vs using an M68... well, we didn't have to unless it was worst-case scenario and the spare A2s got issued. Every man/woman in the unit not running a beltfed had an M4, and before that, we had A2s. They didn't make the switch lightly. I wasn't infantry, so i won't tell you how to do your job, though we had our own training in similar things, but for the work we did, 14.5" barrels were better than 20". In a few cases, we had to go to pistols (aircraft cockpits being one during aircraft recapture drills).

Any of the preban Colts are fine. Not a great fan of the heavy barrels, but they work.

Ok I think I know what kind of rail mounts you are referring to, hence my earlier comments about the back up sights and having to wire tie or 550 cord any rail mounted accessories. I'll try to get a pic of how we wire tie and 550 cord our PEQ14's and CCO's. When I referred to ARMS I was only talking about their carry handle mounts. Are you talking about the QD mounts etc from ARMS and Larue?

I like the heavy barreled Colts simply because they do not start stringing shots like the lightweight barrels. And they are usually more accurate.

If you were doing VIP etc then I understand. Is aircraft recapture like DART?

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:19 pm

Ok, so you guys know AR's like I know Marlin rimfire levers.

I have a max budget, in the $1200-$1300, so I know I can't afford one from KAC.

This is going to be a range gun. I wouldy prefer a 20" barrel length, you've all convinced me of buying real mil spec reliability, and really don't need the carry handle.

McMurphy gave me some real good recommendations, but a lot you really know your stuff, so I am open.

Thanks

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:25 pm

madman4570 wrote: You sound like you have been around the block with this stuff
Do you have any knowledge on the NEW Kel-Tec HB SU16C that you can share?
I know these guns are not like the Colt and if war breaks out I have those and M1's/M1A's/Ak's/SKS's/Ruger Mini's but what about using it for at most Urban protection etc.medium weight barrel both barrel and chamber chrome lined.
I put 3 mags of 40rds threw mine today(2011 SU16-C) and honestly the grouping seem darn good.
The barrel did not seem any hotter than my AK's or Ruger gets?
To be truthful though I don't do that to my Colts
Thanks!

If you mean me, I used to think I'd been around the block, now I'm getting smart enough to realize that when you think you have, you probably haven't.

What I have is some experience, maybe more than some, but I'm learning more and more to keep my mouth shut and listen.

As to the Kel-Tec, no I have no experience with the NEW SU16. I have some with an older model that I picked up, but I haven't been able to even get it sighted in because the front post is too tall and cant be turned down far enough to get POI higher than 3" low at 100yrds. It has not jammed once however and once I get it sighted in (by filing down front sight post) I'm looking forward to shooting some cheap commie ammo through it. I like the Kel-Tecs because they are light and use AR mags.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:30 pm

jdad wrote:Ok, so you guys know AR's like I know Marlin rimfire levers.

I have a max budget, in the $1200-$1300, so I know I can't afford one from KAC. This is going to be a range gun. I wouldy prefer a 20" barrel length, you've all convinced me of buying real mil spec reliability, and really don't need the carry handle.

McMurphy gave me some real good recommendations, but a lot you really know your stuff, so I am open.

Thanks

If you look around you can find a Colt for that price range.

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=Colt+AR15

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:52 pm

Yes, QD mounts.

We didn't do DART, in our case it was aircraft security while either airborne or on the ground in various unfriendly places. "Flayaways" is what they were generally called, moving troops from the African Union, etc. I never did a flyaway but we trained on it to back up the Ravens (dedicated flyaway guys).

Primary mission for us was high value target security. You can figure that one out, or not, but not the sort of hardware and software you can throw a lot of lead around. Surgical accuracy except in a few cases were the expectation, though if it ever really went bad, it wouldn't matter. We had guys detailed on PSD work here and there, or working in command posts and things as well.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:14 pm

I thoroughly cleaned and looked over my weapon good.
I will say this is the first time (yesterday) I ever dumped 120 rds (3---40rd mags)out of any gun that quick(with the exception of maybe my 10/22 Ruger??)though I think not ever even then.

It bothered me all last night doing that to that gun.
It looked fine in the bore etc. and I took it out and shot (2) slow fire 5 shot groups for accuracy.
Grouped just fine(same as before)so guess I got off lucky.
Really not a bright thing to do(to prove a point--to myself)??
Lucky I have (a ton)of 5.56 ammo

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:22 pm

madman4570 wrote:I thoroughly cleaned and looked over my weapon good.
I will say this is the first time (yesterday) I ever dumped 120 rds (3---40rd mags)out of any gun that quick(with the exception of maybe my 10/22 Ruger??)though I think not ever even then.

It bothered me all last night doing that to that gun.

We had to burn up a bunch of ammo once. I went through 20 magazines on 3 round burst in my M4. It started cooking off. Next time we did a zero, groups were just as tight as before.

Edit: Just realized Madman was talking about an SU16, but I'll let my comment stand as reference to others.

Makes me want to take the SU16 out and do a few magazine dumps, just don't have any plinking ammo loaded and don't want to waste the factory stuff I have. May have to fire up the press tomorrow.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:30 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
madman4570 wrote:I thoroughly cleaned and looked over my weapon good.
I will say this is the first time (yesterday) I ever dumped 120 rds (3---40rd mags)out of any gun that quick(with the exception of maybe my 10/22 Ruger??)though I think not ever even then.

It bothered me all last night doing that to that gun.
We had to burn up a bunch of ammo once. I went through 20 magazines on 3 round burst in my M4. It started cooking off. Next time we did a zero, groups were just as tight as before.

Edit: Just realized Madman was talking about an SU16, but I'll let my comment stand as reference to others.

Makes me want to take the SU16 out and do a few magazine dumps, just don't have any plinking ammo loaded and don't want to waste the factory stuff I have. May have to fire up the press tomorrow.

Amen bro Amen!

i feel better now

One thing for sure always am learning from you guys!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:09 pm

sore shoulder wrote:The A2 site radius is longer allowing much better accuracy.

The longer A2 20" barrel gives a much higher velocity which is extremely important for such a small caliber when considering effective range and how the bullet performs. It also gives higher velocity with the tighter 1/7 twist rate. Both together are a superior combination.

The A2 buttstock has a compartment for the cleaning kit, it is always with the rifle, not on your kit or in your pack which you may or may not have with you when you need the cleaning kit.

The idea that the shorter rifle is easier to use is a fallacy. I've done the same exact things with an M16 that I do with an M4 and notice no discernible difference.

I love the A2 .

My experience is roughly the same --- i like the A2 with an A1 stock in a perfect world --- but in some cases (mine ) -- it all depends on what you "grew up with", for me it was standard length rifles -- although astute observers will note the rifles in my pic are A1's, not A2's --

edit : I cant believe how old this pic looks for something that seemed like was just a few years ago

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:13 pm

MrMurphy wrote: An S&W M&P15 (Not the sport) will serve you well and hold up under a lot of shooting in a hurry.

What is the weakness of the "sport" model?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:57 am

They basically went as cheap as they could go. Without thoroughly inspecting one and test firing the hell out of it, i wouldn't vouch for one. It's intended as a pure range gun/coyote whacker and does just fine for that.

I 'grew up' on the A2 myself at age 18 in Army ROTC, then at 27 in basic and in tech school, later in tech we went to the M4.

The A4 (now) has it's place, but it still should have a collapsible stock. The Canadians with the C7 did this for that reason, to fit everyone.

The Army went to the long/short barrel system on the M249 for the same reasons, with collapsing stocks....maneuverability.

I had to run the full size fixed stock 20" M249, and room/bunker/building clearing well...it could have been easier. We had the 200 round can, not the 100 round nutsack as well.

Most of the time I was using an M4, M4/203 or the 240 in a turret though.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:38 pm

Room clearing with a 249 is crazy. You never know for sure if that first round is going to fire. So unless you have done a check fire previously...

We leave the SAW on security in most cases.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:44 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Room clearing with a 249 is crazy. You never know for sure if that first round is going to fire. So unless you have done a check fire previously...

We leave the SAW on security in most cases.

Isn't Government Procurement great?

I'm almost glad I got RiFed when I did...