Man takes 17 bullets and still needs to be handcuffed? Why

[FWiedner]

The one-shot stop data is interesting and somewhat enlightening, but I believe that is also of limited gravity since almost any round of any caliber might effect a one-shot stop if effectively placed.

As the OP seems to indicate, the one-shot gun-fight is the exception and not the norm.

When the last bullet finally finds some schlub's ON/OFF button, evidence seems to point toward it being pure LUCK.

[Buck Elliott]

http://www.reloadersnest.com/article_40 ... ug3103.asp
40S&W FMJ against 30-06 for penetration!

Such poorly conceived and conducted "comparison" tests are worse than worthless, and serve no purpose beyond distracting a couple of nut-jobs from more harmful pursuits, for the span of a Saturday morning... It was, at best, an "apples/oranges/bananas" exercise, and provides no real basis for comparison..

As mentioned by others, maybe we need to raise the bar again, for LEOs.. nOT lower the equipment standards. Departments across the board need to realize that Any of their officers May Be involved in a shooting incident, at Any Time, and to recognize the responsibility to equip and train those officers so that they can prevail, with minimal collateral damage, Every Time..

Nothing turns on the Panic Mode quicker than to see that your shots seem to have Had no apparent effect..

[AJMD429]

If my 15 year-old daughter can handle my 45 1911, I just cannot see why compromises are made for the professionals.

I've wondered that myself, but someone mentioned earlier in the thread that a relatively small percentage of LEO trainees are 'gun people', and that, plus different training philosophies, could make alot of difference.

I've found that when I'm dealing with an ordinary non-gun person who wants to get a handgun for protection, that if I start them out shooting a 9mm from the beginning, they tend to flinch more, and several hundred rounds later, are still a bit apprehensive. Moving them 'up' to a .45 ACP gets most of them a bit overwhelmed, unless they weigh over 200 pounds or so.

On the other hand, if their first training and practice is with a .22 LR for a couple hundred or thousand rounds, THEN they are eager to move to a 9mm, and quickly ASK if they can step up to a .45 ACP, which they usually fire, then grin, as if to say "Finally - THIS is what I wanted all along..."

Police trainees might be insulted if their first range sessions involved shooting .22 LR's, but I'm not sure how it could hurt.

[Streetstar]

. Someone on PCP can withstand multiple hits and stay in the fight.....

Question for the LEO's or anybody else who would know, ---- but is PCP still around? I just never hear about it anymore . Oklahoma (and i guess a metric ton of other locales) is methamphetamine territory and it seems to have supplanted a lot of other drugs.

The coke heads are all of a seemingly gentrified income and you dont hear about them much anymore either , the stoners just sit on the couch and watch cartoons, but there is always a meth related crime in the news --

And does meth give the hostiles any effects like PCP does?


It is sad, but right on the heels of me talking about not liking to carry my guns "everywhere" in the handgun importance thread, i have noticed more news about shootings , killings and home invasions in a short span of time than i can remember in the greater Oklahoma City area

[KirkD]

... if their first training and practice is with a .22 LR for a couple hundred or thousand rounds, THEN they are eager to move to a 9mm, and quickly ASK if they can step up to a .45 ACP, which they usually fire, then grin, as if to say "Finally - THIS is what I wanted all along..."

Police trainees might be insulted if their first range sessions involved shooting .22 LR's, but I'm not sure how it could hurt.

I think you are right ..... the proper training procedure is the key.

By the way, the way my 15 year-old daughter loves the feel of the 1911 bucking in her hands as she puts a 45 round within 1" of center just makes me smile. She can't get enough of it.

[kimwcook]

Streetstar, PCP was rarely ever around here, most everything else, but PCP was and still is a rarity. There's a plethora of drugs that by themselves or in combination turns people into animals. Meth turns tweekers into paranoid schizophrenics with hallucinogenic tendencies. When the brain stays up for extended amounts of time it starts having problems with complex thought and logic. Those folks are the ones that you need to bring your A game with. As already stated, a person not using anything can be the worst. They've made up their minds and if they get to that determined level they're not going down unless they can't stand and fight.

[FWiedner]

I started my daughter using a Ruger Mk-II, and moved her straight to a Springfield 1911-A1 because she couldn't wait "... to shoot a .45."

She took to it successfully and well. The grin she had from seeing the holes get punched right where she wanted them to go is a favored memory.

I'd never even owned a 9mm before I purchased an LC9 late last year, and did not introduce one into my children's training.

[madman4570]

http://www.reloadersnest.com/article_40 ... ug3103.asp
40S&W FMJ against 30-06 for penetration!

Such poorly conceived and conducted "comparison" tests are worse than worthless, and serve no purpose beyond distracting a couple of nut-jobs from more harmful pursuits, for the span of a Saturday morning... It was, at best, an "apples/oranges/bananas" exercise, and provides no real basis for comparison..

easy boy/down
Just a little penetration comparison??
That's all

It does show a basis that if someone has their head behind 10 big soaked 1000pg phone books a 40S&W with a FMJ is still going to wack them probably as dead as a 30-06 (dead is dead)in the little head.
A 180gr(.40 cal)through the skull will probably kill em like the 180gr(.30cal)at that point.

[tman]

If the guy was hit in the vitals with a .22, .40S&w or 30-06 he would have went down. All 3 would have penetrated the head and heart. Caliber, muzzle velocity, magic bullets are a poor substitute for bad shooting. I know it ain't easy under pressure, that's why u practice, practice , practice. Replace the 40 for a 45 and u have the same results. Poor shooting at deer with a 30-30 sells a lot of 300 magnums. If you can't put down a man with a .40 or a deer with a 30-30, you need more time at the range, not a bigger gun.

[Griff]

I've started and erased several replies on this topic... but, suffice it to say that mental preparedness and attitude have more to do with the success of any fight than physical strength or firepower. Most police departments don't have the budget nor the skillsets to instill that in those that don't have the "want-to". Even the military doesn't have the capacity to do that, except in small elite units.

[Buck Elliott]

Some good comments. The picture (X-ray) of the bullet in the throat, may no tell all about it. Bullets do have a tendency to bounce(?) around inside a body when they hit. I have heard and seen pictures of the 22LR which did quite a bit of travel after hitting and going in several subsequent directions before coming to rest some distance from the entry. I am still looking for the bullet which will turn everything from the belt line up into a pink bloody mist when hitting it's intended target. No luck so far. At least in a handgun caliber. Interesting topic, shows the need to practice and be able to respond correctly when shooting at a bad guy. Too many people believe most people fold up when hit and quit fighting. Have a good weekend.

.22s have a very nasty habit of acting just as you described, due mostly to lack of mass.. A chest shot with a .22 rimfire is likely to result in massive tissue damage to the lungs, and possibly the heart.. Remember the case of President Reagan.... The little pill bounces around against the elastic tissues of the chest wall, like a ping pong ball in a washing machine, until it runs out of energy... A high school classmate of mine died from just such a wound, back in the late 60s.. After he was wounded, he sat down on the couch, waiting for an ambulance crew.. By the time they arrived, he had bled out, internally...

[madman4570]

If the guy was hit in the vitals with a .22, .40S&w or 30-06 he would have went down. All 3 would have penetrated the head and heart. Caliber, muzzle velocity, magic bullets are a poor substitute for bad shooting. I know it ain't easy under pressure, that's why u practice, practice , practice. Replace the 40 for a 45 and u have the same results. Poor shooting at deer with a 30-30 sells a lot of 300 magnums. If you can't put down a man with a .40 or a deer with a 30-30, you need more time at the range, not a bigger gun.

Very well said!

[kevin in nh]

I brought up the PCP only as I never forgot it.....crack, meth and a combo of good old boose makes people stupid and deadly....we had one with a 4 foot sword one night coming at 2 of our guys and lucky for him both were experienced and didn't shoot him....back up from the next town shoots him 6 or 7 times with bean bag rounds with no effect until it hit LOW.....then they scooped him up.....most cops arn't gun guys and only shoot when they have too.....I and another instructor shoot a lot.....not standing but shooting from moving vehicles, running....forward and backwards......simulating walking up on a car, or a house and not just shooting and NOT MOVING at paper targets.....complancy kills....like the roofer that falls, or the electrician who's been working live cause he's been doing it forever.....in the worst case you will instinctivly revert to what ever level of training you have.....you have to make it real.....and little to no training = dead.......and someone mentioned just a determined individual.....2010 West Memphis Arkansas....no drugs and this kid was just 16, as his father distracted officers Paudet and Evens the kid gets out and kills both with an AK.....not good enough he stands over there bodies and empties another mag....they end up in a walmart parking lot, shoot more officers and the kid plays dead hoping to get them to come in......at the last second he locked eyes with one rifle toting cop who takes part of his head off.....they say the kid was born with a gun in his hand...and TRAINED, TRAINED, AND TRAINED SOME MORE.......oh, this was supposed to be about handcuffing? wasn't it!

[gak]

I just watched an excellent documentary on the war in the Pacific, Tarawa, Pelilu and such, in which a former Marine described, to paraphrase, "...we just kept shooting him and he wouldn't go down, kept charging, just kept coming." He did not specify carbine (everyone's knee jerk guess I'm sure), Thompson or Garand or what--in this case I got the impression it didn't matter (short of a direct head shot)--when someone is motivated, whether drugs fanatical ideology or both, it can take a lot to put someone down.

[tman]

True. If u shoot enough game or people with whatever, this sometimes happens. "Enough Gun" and "One shot dead right there" is a gun righters/manufactors/ advertising, total fantasy

[sore shoulder]

It should be noted that the original autopsy notes were heavily edited to include disclaimers that express a different opinion than the original, and my suspicions are that it was due to a lawsuit threat from the ammo manufacturers. That shooting happened several years ago and I have the busted link somewhere to the original autopsy but like a dummy I didnt save the pdf at the time.

Regardless that article defines in clear living color detail exactly why I dont think expanding/self defence rounds should be used in anything short of a magnum round. It also defines exactly why the .40 is a terd compared to it's daddy the 10mm, which would have blown right through that kid and left a gaping hole out the back with the same bullets.

As to 5.56, the best performing rounds I've seen to date are Mk262 rounds loaded by Black Hills for the military using a Sierra 77gr BTHP bullet. Specops and some frontline combat units get issued them and they are absolutely devastating on impact. the 75gr Hornady TAP is a close second as far as what is available to civilian market.

[sore shoulder]

If the guy was hit in the vitals with a .22, .40S&w or 30-06 he would have went down. All 3 would have penetrated the head and heart. Caliber, muzzle velocity, magic bullets are a poor substitute for bad shooting. I know it ain't easy under pressure, that's why u practice, practice , practice. Replace the 40 for a 45 and u have the same results. Poor shooting at deer with a 30-30 sells a lot of 300 magnums. If you can't put down a man with a .40 or a deer with a 30-30, you need more time at the range, not a bigger gun.

Apparently you didn't notice that most of the .40 rounds hitting this guy left shallow craters of 1 to 2 inches.

[tman]

Difference between a 40 and a 45 with 180 and 185 grain jhp's isn't worth mentioning, just splitting hairs. At 100 or 200 fps. or 50 grains more bullet weight can't compensate for for poor shooting. A hit in the vitals with a 30-30 is better than a poor hit with a 300WM. 458 winchesters have failed to stop elephants, Inuit eskimos use .222 remingtoms to harvest polar bears for 50+ years. Elk tags are are sucessfully filled year after year with .243 winchesters with Remington coreloct bullets. Elk run away with poor shots with a .338 magnum with PREMIUM bullets. Put the bullet in the vitals, whether the EXPERTS consider it inadequate will do the job more often that HAVING ENOUGH GUN and poor shooting 90% of the time. The other 10%, nobody can really explain, which, perhaps is the case here.

[kimwcook]

Then there's the guy I responded to that took five 22LR rounds through and through the chest and survived. He just ended up with a zipper through his "Gangsta" tat on his belly. But, there's also the two homicides I investigated that it only took one 22LR round to the head and it was all over. That's why there's no prescribed magic number or caliber of rounds to be fired that make every perpetrator cease their aggression.

[sore shoulder]

Difference between a 40 and a 45 with 180 and 185 grain jhp's isn't worth mentioning, just splitting hairs. At 100 or 200 fps. or 50 grains more bullet weight can't compensate for for poor shooting.

What?

458 winchesters have failed to stop elephants,

That is well known to be faulty ammunition.

Elk tags are are sucessfully filled year after year with .243 winchesters with Remington coreloct bullets.

I live right in the middle of prime elk country in Colorado and I don't know anyone stupid enough to do that. I know people who have used a .270 and even that is considered marginal. You say they use .243's like it's common, it aint, it's uncommon, so uncommon I've never heard of it till now.


Most of your arguments are based on exceptions to the rule, which is never an acceptable argument, or outright made up puckey.

[tman]

Believe what u want. I don't have a dog in the fight anyway. Based on years of what i shot, others shot, what i've read. If u really believe that if the cop shot poorly with a 45 or a 44 magnum, and it would have changed the outcome, i have no hard evidence to dispute it. Just an opinon.

[sore shoulder]

Believe what u want. I don't have a dog in the fight anyway. Based on years of what i shot, others shot, what i've read. If u really believe that if the cop shot poorly with a 45 or a 44 magnum, and it would have changed the outcome, i have no hard evidence to dispute it. Just an opinon.

Did you read the link? The guy was shot in the chest, abdomen, and throat, all in "the vitals". It doesn't do any good to hit the vitals with a round that wont penetrate more than 2". Rapidly expanding "self defense" bullets are utterly stupid in a .40 Stupid and Worthless.


From the article.

Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was
also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds
expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the
Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also
received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical
Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on
them).

[madman4570]

Guess we just caulk this one up as a fluke and go by the percentages.Like stated------
{40 S&W - The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings (292 one shot stops for a 94% rating) then was the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings/and Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullets. The 3 loads had 93% a one shot stop.}
Compared to all the other calibers out there would say with a proper constructed 155gr or 165gr bullet(should do)?

Besides most of mine will be coming out of a 16" tube which ups it similar to a 10mm
In the handgun have got to think a cheap plain old 155gr JFP/JSP traveling at a good clip also would do nicely?

There is one way to find out and I will spend a few bucks getting a couple pieces of different meats to test this.
Will get some ribs/roast/ham(bonless)and big beef bones ,pop em at 20ft from a sturdy rest.
I will shoot the big boneless ham by itself
I will shoot the rib sections also using on one with a roast behind it
I will shoot a roast by itself
But for these tests I will use the 155gr Hornady loading with XTP bullets out of a 4.5" barreled Glock 22
Really I don't care about the prior bullets used,I just want to try the one I think/hope it works and that will be what I use/carry.
And whats $75-$100 bucks anyway(less ammo)! Screw it,it's worth it.
From everything I have read the XTP bullets are noted for deep/damaging penetration in the hunting arena!
If it's good enough on animals we hunt its good enough on us(which some also do get hunted)

Then maybe I can talk my brother into doing it with a 16" carbine in that cal to see if there is much difference?

Will they be perfect in every way tests(he## no)but it will be bullets blasting meat
The perfect everything(retired after 31years of that stuff)so it's just fun now.


Have not forget about doing some of these meat tenderizing tests(just been lately every piece been buying(been eating)
Hang in there sooner or later!

[KirkD]

Madman, I will look forward to the results and photos. I am of the persuasion that if one wants to test the maximum capability of expanding bullets, then one should do it with the heaviest expanding bullets offered by each caliber, as mass and momentum are also a factor in how far an expanded bullet penetrates.

[madman4570]

Madman, I will look forward to the results and photos. I am of the persuasion that if one wants to test the maximum capability of expanding bullets, then one should do it with the heaviest expanding bullets offered by each caliber, as mass and momentum are also a factor in how far an expanded bullet penetrates.

Kirk,
ya maybe down the road will check out the 180-200 grainers etc.
What I am interested in (with the .40)is a fast moving medium weight bullet that doesn't over expand limiting it's penetration to unacceptable limits.They say the XTP bullets give medium expansion and very DEEP penetration.
It seems that if you could get a bullet that does a complete body pass through AND open up some compared to none with a FMJ that would do the deed.(somewhere in between a rapid expansion hollow point and a FMJ
Will say that I remember quite a few old timers telling me even with the 45ACP with FMJ when shot the enimies just kept coming acting like they were not even hit(though I imagine this might have been a little longer distance,not like 20ft ????? I am looking for one hole in/one hole out.I am not concerned with over penetration.(I suppose those would argue of some energy waste going out ?
Also got to believe that a good solid JFP 155grain bullet doing about 1300fps at close encounter distance will provide full pass through on a human body,Only reason I was thinking the XTP is because it supposedly rivals that but also adds a little extra to the expansion.

Can't promise much on the photos cause aint much of a photo type guy!
Anyhow when I do get around to doing this(let post results what good they will do.
Something ain't right about a .40S&W only going 1" in someone's throat or gut!
He## I can do better than that with a stick?

[piller]

Methamphetamine is a descendant of something developed by chemists in Nazi Germany and used to keep their soldiers going when they were out of food and rest. Benzedrine, a relative of methamphetamine, was used by the Navy Seals during Vietnam to keep them going during extended missions. The SEAL team members would often use the Bennies to stay awake and alert for several days at a time, but they would pay for it in extended sleep sessions when they finally got back to the rear. If someone on meth is shot, they might try to continue to fight even after their body has sustained damage which should have killed them. In that case, handcuffing them even after multiple gunshots is not only departmental policy, but smart. Methamphetamine is a stimulant, and may actually be any one of a number of chemicals depending on the method and chemicals used in the "cooking" process. When the final product may have impurities and display unanticipated results, there is a very real possibility that the perp on meth will not display rational behavior. On the other hand, someone who is not on anything can be determined enough that they are impossible to stop. There was a Texas Ranger Captain who stated that "There is no stopping a man who knows he is in the right and keeps a coming."