Vaquero cylinder locking up...help? Resolved!

[awp101]

A couple of months back, The Old Man got to fire a .44 Special Taurus snub. He'd never fired a Special before and decided he needed one. Last weekend we hit a show and he found something that tickled his fancy, one of the Lipsey's .44 Special Vaqueros.

Today he hit the range for the first time with it and he called saying he got three rounds loaded and it just locked up. He can get the cylinder pin to move, the loading gate is open but the cylinder won't turn or come out and the hammer only goes back 1/4" or so. I asked if the rounds were seated all the way and he said they were and he could see them sliding back a forth a bit when the pointed the muzzle up and down.

I haven't seen it yet and he might be bringing it by for me to check out but does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should look at once I see it?

Thanks!

[Loke]

Sounds like the locking bolt is jammed. The hammer shouldn't be able to be cocked with the loading gate opened on the New Model. Unless they have changed things recently. You need to remove the grip frame to set things straight. The trick will be doing this while the mainspring is under tension.

[awp101]

OK, false alarm. The culprit turned out to be a high primer. Well, sort of a false alarm. He bought the only box of .44 Special the dealer had, Winchester Cowboy loads.

When he got it here, I tried turning it and felt resistance, but it would move. He wasn't sure how much force he should use so he didn't try very hard to turn the cylinder. Once I found the problem, I started looking at the ammo. One high primer in a factory box would be unusual, but not unheard of so I figured it was a good idea to fell the rest.

I found a few more by feel so I REALLY looked then. It's all mixed headstamp which screams reloads to me. Somehow I don't think Winchester is going to use RP or PMC brass in their factory loads.

Not knowing the powder or charge, I advised pulling the bullets and dumping the powder. I've got a kinetic puller and powders that should work. All I need are dies and a reloading area.

He's going to call the dealer (who came from out of town) and see what they'll do. It's possible they took the ammo in from an individual and didn't look real close. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see/hear their solution.

[rossim92]

that sounds great. at least you know it's not a firearm problem, and caught the culprit before any serious harm was done to both person and gun.

[2571]

"call the dealer (who came from out of town) and see what they'll do"

You gotta be kidding us.

[kimwcook]

Glad to hear you found the problem and it wasn't the piece. I can't believe Winchester would do any loads using someone else's cases. Something doesn't pass the smell test here. Ammunition can't be returned once purchased, federal law. The dealer can elect to work with you though. Wishing you good luck.

[piller]

I am certainly glad that the reloads didn't damage the gun, or worse. I shoot my own reloads, but I had a bad experience with reloads from an outfit which specialized in large volume reloads to sell at gunshows. The situation could easily have been worse for you guys.

[awp101]

Ammunition can't be returned once purchased, federal law.

Even reloads sold as factory?

"call the dealer (who came from out of town) and see what they'll do"

You gotta be kidding us.

Why would I be kidding? What's wrong with at least giving someone a chance to correct a problem? Sure, they may tell him to go pound sand but since my crystal ball is out of order I can't say with any certainty what they will do and there's no harm in bringing it to their attention and see how they handle it. Worst case scenario, he buys a set of reloading dies since I have everything else needed to reseat the primers and reload the cases.

I spent too long being cynical, bitter and expecting the worst out of people. I got tired of being miserable over the actions/expectations of others. Now I look to see how I can make a given situation better and I'm happier for it.

piller, you and I are in the same neck of the woods and I bet we hit some of the same shows. I'd be curious who's reloads they were (via PM is fine) so I can keep an eye out for (and plenty of distance between) them.

[kimwcook]

Any ammunition. I did say the dealer may work with your dad. I would if I were them, but more than likely they know what they've got. Now, I'm being cynical. Wish you luck on getting a resolution.

[Griff]

Kim is right. In fact, that dealer may be breaking the law... notice I said "may"... selling reloaded ammo or even reboxed ammo is illegal, unless the reloader is licensed and registered as an ammo manufacturer. In some states, it is also illegal for a casual reloader to give his reloads to another. I make it a strict policy that I WILL NOT buy gunshow ammo. In fact, I've seldom found any that represents a real "deal" over what that same dealer may sell in his store! If you check carefully, you'll find that a local gun store may send an employee to a gun show to sell stock there... more often than not at HIGHER prices than you'll find the same merchandise at their store! I had one local store owner justify this to me as he had to pay an employee overtime to attend the store, move the merchandise from store to show and back (if not sold), and the cost of his tables at the show.

No thanks, gun show ammo is seldom a bargain.

[awp101]

Any ammunition. I did say the dealer may work with your dad. I would if I were them, but more than likely they know what they've got. Now, I'm being cynical. Wish you luck on getting a resolution.

I caught that, sorry I didn't address it. Not enough coffee when I posted...

The small cynic remaining in me says they probably won't do anything other than say "Sorry!" but like I said, it doesn't hurt to ask. Dad and I spent long enough in an industry where fixing the mistakes of others (factory or other servicers) was a part of the job. Sometimes a call by us or the customer resulted in positive resolutions we couldn't authorize on our own (or we didn't expect the factory to go along with) and sometimes we and the customer were told to live with it.

Kim is right. In fact, that dealer may be breaking the law... notice I said "may"... selling reloaded ammo or even reboxed ammo is illegal, unless the reloader is licensed and registered as an ammo manufacturer.

True and the "may" part is what I'm looking at. It "may" be they acquired the ammo from an estate or a customer who "forgot" to mention they were reloads. Or they "may" have swapped the rounds into a factory box and hoped no one would catch on. Again, benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason to suspect nefariousness (that's my fifty cent word for the day ).

[Griff]

...it doesn't hurt to ask...

My general attitude is... if you don't ask, they CAN'T say yes!. Best of luck to ya!

[awp101]

Forgot to tell y'all how this ended.

The Old Man called them the next day, explained what happened and what we found. The person he talked to got the owner on the phone and the owner said "We don't sell reloaded ammunition. Bring it to the next show and I'll take care of it for you."

Since Dad had to work that weekend I made the sacrifice to go to the show, I mean, take the ammo back to the dealer. The owner looked at the box and shells and said "Well, some are factory but you're right. These are someone's reloads. We took this in on trade and didn't check. If you'll give me a few minutes, let me see if I can track down another box of Specials." I said I'd finish the aisle and stop on my return trip down the other side which would take 10-15 minutes if nothing really cool caught my eye.

When I got back he said he hadn't been able to search out another box yet (they were totally swamped like most of the other dealers) and gave me the choice of giving him more time or accepting a refund. I opted for the refund so Dad could buy the ammo he wanted to try rather than me guessing "Yeah, he might like to try that.". In fact, the guy rounded the refund up to the nearest $5 (an extra $1.05 ).

Now, did he know he wasn't supposed to give a refund on ammo? Was he not real concerned about the fine print? I don't know, nor do I care. He owned up to the mistake of his store and offered two acceptable (to me) ways to make it right with no static or attempt to buffalo us. Trying to get anything more out of him or not being happy with the outcome would border on petulance IMO.

In a way, I wish he had given us a hard time. He had a sweet Remington 722 in .257 Roberts that I fell in love with and it would have been a heck of a lot easier to walk off mad than to have to pass it up for lack of funds...

[Tycer]

In a way, I wish he had given us a hard time. He had a sweet Remington 722 in .257 Roberts that I fell in love with and it would have been a heck of a lot easier to walk off mad than to have to pass it up for lack of funds...

[Griff]

Glad that it worked out for ya.

[adirondakjack]

It is illegal to MAKE ammo for sale unless licensed, or unless using all components including brass, provided by the customer (which amounts to contract labor). Even in the early 1960s this was true. My dad loaded for the local PD's practice range. The range officer would bring powder, bullets, primers and brass, and dad would assemble them for so much a box. Dad kept their stuff separate from his own and kept good records "just in case the law comes asking"

An FFL I know has a series of old gym lockers in his back room, each assigned to one of his reloading customers. The lockers contain all the customer's components. My buddy just fires his 650 and assembles them for a fee.

One CAN legally acquire reloaded ammo from a licensed maker and sell it, which is what you do when you buy bulk from folks who are in the commercial reloading business legally. The ONLY reason the government cares is simple. EVERY round of ammo MANUFACTURED, including reloaded cases, pays an 11% tax that the federales are determined to get. Remember, BATFE are the same folks who chase down moonshiners for the same reasons.

[kimwcook]

Glad that it worked out for ya.

[awp101]

Remember, BATFE are the same folks who chase down moonshiners for the same reasons.

Well, I was sent to a place in North Carolina
To check up on a moonshine still
When I got there to my suprise
I could see a little light on the hill
Well, the fire was glowing and really I was knowing
I was really hot on the track
But in D.C. they said it couldnt' be
But I'll be the one to bring 'em back.

'Cause I'm a revenooer man
Hey, I'm a revenooer man
I got a badge in my pocket
And a gun on my hip
And them moonshiners
Better never make a slip
'Cause I'm a revenooer man
Yeah, I'll get 'em if I can.

Well the moon was shining bright
As I looked down the river
I noticed on the side of the hill
I can see a red light that was glowing bright
I knew it had to be a still
Well, the people down the road said it wasn't far
But I better know someone
'Cause when the moonshiners know I carry a star
I'll bet my bottom dollar I'll have 'em on the run.

'Cause I'm a revenooer man
Yeah, I'm a revenooer man
I got a badge in my pocket
And a gun on my hip
Them moonshiners better never make a slip
'Cause I'm a revenooer man
Yeah, I'll get 'em if I can.

Well when I got back the woods were bare
Must've knew I was on my way
Well, I heard the branches shatter
And they started to scatter
I heard two or three of them say
It's the revenooer man
It's revenooer man
He's got a big 45 and loads to fill
Dragging and shagging to another hill
It's the revenooer man
And he'll get us if he can.
Yeah, I'm the revenooer man
And I'll get 'em if I can...

[mikld]

"I spent too long being cynical, bitter and expecting the worst out of people. I got tired of being miserable over the actions/expectations of others. Now I look to see how I can make a given situation better and I'm happier for it."

I salute you, sir. Life is so much easier when one stops fighting everybody and every thing! An old timer once told me if you treat a man like a thief long enough, he'll steal from you. The same holds true when dealing with anyone, if you expect the worst out of people, then that's what you're likely to get (or that's all you're apt to see)...