Choices....405, 45/70, or 45/60?

[turnkey]

I have been planning on buying a Winchester or good quality replica for a black bear hunt that will hopefully happen next year. I've had 86's in 45/70 in the past, but they always got away from me.[Yes, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.] I'd kinda like to try a 1895 in .405 or a 1876 in 45/60, but only know what I've read about them. There are some interesting rifles at the CDNN site, both 1895's by Winchester and 1876's by Chapparal, but I've never heard of Chaparral firearms before. Does anybody have any experience with them?

[Hawkeye2]

Go for the .405! At 3,300 ft.-lbs. it's good for anything you will encounter and you should be able to load down to a reasonable level. I had the chance to shoot one with full house loads last winter and it was fun and nowhere as punishing as I thought it was going to be. It generated quite a bit of interest but no one asked to try it. The closest I have come to an elephant gun yet.

[crs]

What Hawkeye2 said +1.

You have already owned an 1886 in .45-70, so why not try something new?
You can reload the .405 down with cast or with .41 mag pistol bullets or up with cast, monolithic, or jacketed bullets for any occasion. And the 1895 is a pleasure to carry and shoot in the field.

As you can see my 1895 .405"shooter" has a receiver sight and Limb Saver recoil pad; for me, these make it easier to shoot accurately and more fun with full power loads.

[Thunder50]

405 all the way. Mine is a Ruger #1, but been thinking of getting a 95Win rebored to 405 (kind of rough bore 35 Win now). Nice cartridge. As said, can load 41mag pistol bullets too, for cheap plinking.

[Grizzly Adams]

The 45-60 is a fine cartridge, and certainly enough for black bear. However, the Chaparral 1876 has a reputation for poor/inconsistent quality. Some examples are great, and others are "projects". If you want to get an 1876 in 45-60 (or any other caliber) I would recommend the Uberti version of the 1876.

The new Winchester 1895 is a great rifle in any caliber!

[M. M. Wright]

What Griz said.
I have owned a few Chaparrals and they were all ok. The wood treatment is sure an eye-stopper but I'll bet the wood underneath isn't very high quality. They do not have a very good reputation but a 73 in 45 Colt that I traded for seems to be a good quality shooter at a very decent price. I have heard the horror stories about them but they seem alright to me. A 76 in 45-60 is a big, (as in huge) gun to carry and heavy too, especially when loaded.
My choice is an 86, still a very big gun. Don't remember all of them but I have had a bunch, both Browning and old Winchester, oh! and new Winchester too, just remembered the 45-90 I bought at a gun show and sold an hour later. Regrets. It was still in the box and was marked Black Powder Only.
I doubt if any critter in North America will know the difference between being shot with the 405 or 45-70. Just remember, that 76 is still a toggle link action and can't be loaded up to the level of the other two.

[Bill in Oregon]

Turnkey: That 76 is sure a fun rifle. For a long "sticky" thread on problems with both the Uberti and Chaparral versions, go to CAScity.com where they have an entire forum dedicated to the '76.

[Streetstar]

I would choose the .405 first (unless you want another 45-70, if you do , get yourself another 1886) --- not that the 1876 is a complete "range toy" or anything, but i would also be worried about hotter loads in the thing ---
---i know its somewhat rare, but a black bear can fight back too under the wrong circumstances and i would like to pack the most heat i can get --- but then again, i also use my 45-70 for Oklahoma whitetails when i know a 30-30 is more than sufficient. I just like a quick, humane shot with a minimum of tracking afterward if possible

[Shasta]

I have the Uberti-made 1876 in .45-60, a recent issue Winchester 86 takedown in .45-70, and a newer 1895 in .405. All have enough power for black bear, but if I were to pick just one it would be the .405 simply because it is lighter to carry, and bear hunting in my area usually involves a good deal of hiking as it is illegal to hunt over bait.

SHASTA

[Bill in Oregon]

Shasta, how are you liking your Uberti '76?

[6pt-sika]

I believe if I were the one making the choice I'd go with a nice Winchester (USRA) 1886 in 45-70 as my first choice . And quite possibly the Uberti 1876 as my second choice but not in 45-60 but rather the 50-95 .

The 405 would be my third choice and only if it could be had in an original WInchester 1895 .

My reasons for the 1886 are something I don't usually consider , but in this case I will !
And thats simplicity !
Ammo for the 45-70 is comparatively easy to find as well as brass and acceptable bullet molds . The same can certainly not be said for the 45-60 and the 405 is not much better off . But then that could all be said for the 50-95 that I suggest .

[Don McDowell]

I've been using the 405 for 10 years now, and aside from the 30-30 there's likely never been a better cartridge made for a levergun.

But something else you may want to think about at CDNN is one of those 95 carbines in 30-40, it'll go anywhere do anything, and ammo is less expensive to buy or reload, and if cost is really a factor to you there's probably nothing in a 95 cheaper and more abundant ammo wise as a 30-06.

[Shrapnel]

I'm of the old school and never really thought of '95s as a lever action. I would vote for the 45-70, 45-60 or even a 45-75. These are all great original cartridges and will work on anything, when shot in the right place...

45-75...





How about a 40-60???...



45-70...





45-60...

[piller]

I have never shot a .405, but I have seen CRS use his. Appears to be a good round from how well it worked on a Nilgai. I have use a .45-70 on a rather large blue Wildebeest, and it did very well. Either caliber would do fine for almost any animal on the planet. They would make a mess of a rabbit, though.

[Shasta]

Shasta, how are you liking your Uberti '76?

It is one of my favorite rifles. I use it for NRA Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette offhand shooting (chickens @ 50 meters, pigs @ 100 meters, turkeys @ 150 meters, rams @ 200 meters). I have it set up with an MVA vernier tang sight and Lee Shaver globe front sight. Using a 300 grain Lyman 457191 cast lead bullet over a charge of Reloader 7 or IMR 4198 it will shoot AAA scores, about as good as I can hold.

Haven't had it hunting yet.

SHASTA

[Old Time Hunter]

.405 with a clime'n Lyman.....

[O.S.O.K.]

I'm adding a vote for 405 win - love mine. Go to youtube and search for theoriginalosok and you'll see my slow-mo video shooting mine.

Shrapnel, I don't recognize you without a black box over your eyes

Seriously, great pics!

[turnkey]

Gentlemen, thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it. I haven't decided yet what to go with yet, but I have some ideas. I figure I have two limiting factors in my choices here.
First, I don't reload. The only reloading I've ever done was .45 ACP with a Lee Loader for a S&W 1917.[Yup, it got away too.] I have a friend locally who has a T/C single shot in .405 who can help me with reloads, but his wife is having some serious health issues, so I'm not even going to ask him. .405 ammo is pretty spendy, but it is available. I don't recall ever seeing 45/60 anywhere here in the eastern U.P., or anywhere else come to think of it. Plus, I don't care for guns you have to work on straight out of the factory. So I guess the Chaparral is out. Thanks, Grizz and Bill.
Second is recoil. Two months ago it wouldn't have been an issue, but I kinda had a heart attack. The doc ended up splitting my brisket and replumbing me at the grand old age of 46. My brother had it done two years ago and said he didn't pull a trigger for six months. After that he was fine, he says, but he doesn't have anything bigger than a 30/06. I've heard the recoil on a .405 is pretty stout, and I wonder how good a Limbsaver recoil pad would do. I might have to wait for spring to see how well I can do. Maybe run some 220 grainers through my Model 70 30/06 and see how they feel.
Thanks again, guys.

[Streetstar]

How big do the back bears get where you are hunting generally?

Considering you not wanting to aggravate your new plumbing, i am going to rethink my original recommendation of a 405 and state that the 45-70 is pretty easy recoiling in comparison with factory spec loads

If you live in a more southern state, your 30-06 or a 30-30 may fill the bill admirably ---- but thats not much fun ---- some of the experience for me of a special hunt is getting another rifle to go along with it

[Lastmohecken]

All of those guns would be fun. I sorta want a 76 in 45/60, but I don't use the guns I have nearly enough. I have a 30-06 in the Browning 95 and a Browning 86 carbine in 45/70, not to mention a Model 71 in 450 Alaskan and another in .348.

One thing I like about the common calibers though is if I am traveling, and get seperated from my ammo, 45/70 and 30-06 can be found at most any store that sells ammo. Yeah, I know, a bit more boring, when I could be shooting a specialty handload in an odd caliber that is seldom encountered.

[Don McDowell]

The "if you loose your ammo" arquement has some merit on some things, but does anybody know of anyone that didn't double check their list and have the ammo for the rifle packed before leaving on a trip?

[piller]

When I went to Africa a couple of months ago, I almost forgot to get the ammo for my .45-70, but thanks to 86er having Mike Rintoul's cell phone number, I got my ammo just in time. I took some +P rounds from Grizzly that were 405 grain with, I think, Hawk bullets. They did a great job on the Wildebeest. Over 4 foot of penetration on the 2 recovered bullets, and one went through the pelvis. My first shot was at the animal's butt as he was lying down facing away from me at about 75 to 80 yards and I was somewhat crouched down to stay behind the cover of a bush. Not the best angle, but those loads from Grizzly did the job perfectly. If not for 86er making the call and handing me the phone after he explained to Mike what I had almost done, I would not have had that chance. So, yes, there is someone on here who took the trip of a lifetime and almost forgot the bullets. I won't be waiting until the last second next time, but thankfully, 86er and Mike Rintoul got me out of the jam. When PillHer finally cools off about my trip, I'll post more, but I have to be careful as she is still baseball bat swingin mad at me for making the trip.

[Streetstar]

When PillHer finally cools off about my trip, I'll post more, but I have to be careful as she is still baseball bat swingin mad at me for making the trip.

One of those "better to ask forgiveness than permission" moments ? If she loves you, she'll get over it (i hope)

[6pt-sika]

The "if you loose your ammo" arquement has some merit on some things, but does anybody know of anyone that didn't double check their list and have the ammo for the rifle packed before leaving on a trip?

So you put it in your check bag and boarded the plane only to get to your destination and only get your gun case no check bag with huntin clothes and AMMO then in that case regardless of how well you checked or double checked you are SCREWED if you had the 45-60 or more then likely the 405 . And thats not to say any old mom and pop country store is even gonna have 45-70 but you can bet they might have the 45-70 a darn sight quicker then the others !

[Don McDowell]

If they have to order the ammo it won't make a bit of difference UPS takes the same amount of time whether it's a box of 45-70's or a box of 405's, or even a box of 45-60's from Buffalo Arms.
Still it's a picking nits type deal, chances are if your ammo was in your checked bag so was your license, your knife, and your hunting clothing....

[6pt-sika]

If they have to order the ammo it won't make a bit of difference UPS takes the same amount of time whether it's a box of 45-70's or a box of 405's, or even a box of 45-60's from Buffalo Arms.
Still it's a picking nits type deal, chances are if your ammo was in your checked bag so was your license, your knife, and your hunting clothing....

I mentioned huntin clothes above , that can be semi easily replaced . No one said anything about ordering ammo , I'm speaking of on the shelf stuff . Now typically if you're in a place large enough to have a commercial airport they outta have a gunshop large enough to have 45-70 in stock .

As to license I have always carried that on my person or in my laptop case which boards the plane ALWAYS with me .

And as for a knife if I'm on a guided hunt , the guide can do all that . And besides when we go in the gunshop to buy a box of bullets we can get some kinda knife as well .

[Don McDowell]

Suitcherself.
But it's still dang near an ignorant arquement. If you're flying into an airport big enough to handle commercial airtraffic chances are there will be somewhere between one and 2 dozen sporting goods stores well stocked enough to handle any ammo needs you might have.
The world outside your tiny little spot in the middle of "civilization" isn't near as unsettled as you think it is.

[Lastmohecken]

Suitcherself.
But it's still dang near an ignorant arquement. If you're flying into an airport big enough to handle commercial airtraffic chances are there will be somewhere between one and 2 dozen sporting goods stores well stocked enough to handle any ammo needs you might have.
The world outside your tiny little spot in the middle of "civilization" isn't near as unsettled as you think it is.

If your loading for a wildcat You will probably end up having to borrow or purchase another gun, and I would hate to bank on even finding a box of 45/60's or 45/75's, 405's maybe since it's made a little bit of a comeback, even my 450 Alaskan will probably not be found. Hell, even a lot of the new fangled short mags are getting hard to find ammo on the shelf for.

[O.S.O.K.]

OK, I too am going to change my sugestion based on the last post by turnkey.

I would definately go with a 30-30 or 35 Remington levergun instead of anything with more recoil. And I'd put a lace-on recoil pad on those given the recent surgery. They are perfectly adequate so why push it? You could do the 45-70 with 300 grain premium loads (xbullet or partition) at about the same recoil as the 30-30 and 35 Rem but those will get the job done and there's plenty of ammo available for them - walmart on up.

[6pt-sika]

But it's still dang near an ignorant arquement. If you're flying into an airport big enough to handle commercial airtraffic chances are there will be somewhere between one and 2 dozen sporting goods stores well stocked enough to handle any ammo needs you might have.

You don't read my entire post before you start trying to say something !

I said the exact same thing in the post above if you had read it in it's entirety !

[Don McDowell]

But it's still dang near an ignorant arquement. If you're flying into an airport big enough to handle commercial airtraffic chances are there will be somewhere between one and 2 dozen sporting goods stores well stocked enough to handle any ammo needs you might have.

You don't read my entire post before you start trying to say something !

I said the exact same thing in the post above if you had read it in it's entirety !

So assuming the posts you made did say what you think they did, do you always get so stupid about someone agreeing with you?

[6pt-sika]

But it's still dang near an ignorant arquement. If you're flying into an airport big enough to handle commercial airtraffic chances are there will be somewhere between one and 2 dozen sporting goods stores well stocked enough to handle any ammo needs you might have.

You don't read my entire post before you start trying to say something !

I said the exact same thing in the post above if you had read it in it's entirety !

So assuming the posts you made did say what you think they did, do you always get so stupid about someone agreeing with you?

I made the comment about finding ammo in a store if they had a commercial airport before you did .
And then YOU were the one making comments about stupid ignorant etc .
I haven't read a thing you posted that even came across as agreeing but rather trying to get the last word in !
Until you pretty much wrote the same thing I said in the post above yours . Which would have been good and fine . But the way you said what you did certainly didn't come across as someone agreeing with what I said !

So as far as I'm concerned stay out in your little piece of wilderness and shoot off your mouth or your 405 WCF which ever comes first !

[Don McDowell]