lever action gunsmith in CA?

[zoner]

hi....i'm in San Diego and would like to find a gunsmith nearby with a good rep to look at/repair my m94 Winchester. The problem is that when i'm closing the lever(chambering a round) the action gets a little "tight" right as the bolt closes and the latch engages. When this occurs the lever latch doesn't want to hold. I thought it was my ammo(cast bullet handload) but if i open the action and drop em in the chamber manually they go in all the way to the rim with no resistance. My next guess is it may be a problem with the extractor, or it may be resolved with a good disassembly and cleaning. The bottom line is i'm chicken to take this gun apart. I've disassembled Marlin leverguns,Ruger SA's, S+W DA's, 1911's but i'm afraid i'll screw this up i guess. If anybody else in SoCal knows of a smith with a track record i'd like to hear about it.....Mike

[pwl44m]

Zoner, I Myself was a little apprehensive about taking Mine apart. But with help from Griff and Joe its a piece of cake. Now I have an old Marlin I want to take apart and clean. As long as U have directions to follow U should be OK. BTW It does sound like maybe it is a little dirty. But then U could have a bent or broken part. U didn't say if it was pre or post 64.
Sorry not a lot of help but I'm here for moral support.
Perry

[zoner]

it's pre 64.....1942 vintage...thanks for replying

[J Miller]

zoner,

A good thorough cleaning won't hurt the 94, but I doubt you have any problem with the extractor. It sounds to me like it might have some tool marks on the angled face that contacts the case. That is easy to polish them off. Just be sure to not remove too much metal.

More than likely the old oil has turned to varnish and is gumming up the works.

The 94s are quite simple to take apart and put back together. There is only one brand of rifle simpler and that,s the Marlin.
The only caveat is buy a good quality set of gunsmith screwdrivers. They will help prevent buggered up screw slots.

An easier way to clean it if you are unsure of your ability to take it apart is to remove the stock and with the action open hose it out real good with aerosol carb cleaner. That will cut the crud out and leave the action quite clean. You can also use break cleaner.
After that a good light oiling and it should be good to go.

Joe

[jkbrea]

You might check with "The Shootist" in Temecula or Murrieta. That's just north of you about an hour.

[jeepnik]

I wish I could help, but I'm between smith's. Seems I keep out living the good ones I find. I know there's a guy in Gardena, Alan Tanaka with a good rep, but I haven't been able to catch up with him, so I don't know if he does leverguns. If you find one, let the rest of us know.

[Walker]

Freddy Brunner, the Pachmayr Custom shop's old master gunsmith lives in Escondido. He's the best all around gunsmith I've come across. He stays pretty active in retirement. He restored an old LC Smith that had a cracked stock and looked like someone slammed a truck door on the barrels. He hand filed the flats on a buffed out 1886 parts gun I found, made it look brand new and is fitting the wood on it now. He's one of the best in the country at restoring Winchester 21's also. He should be able to fix that 94, if he can't he'll tell you right away. 760-738-8413.

[zoner]

Thanks for the info guys. Yesterday I took "the Queen" to the NRA Women on Target program at my local range and got to talkin with some of the cowboy shooters and they all recommended a guy named Ron Moran from Carlsbad,CA. I hear he specializes in lever guns, cowboy action jobs, rebores/liners,etc. He's about sixty miles from me so i'll be giving him a call and if that doesn't work i'll go with some of the info you guys gave me......you guys are great!

[zoner]

one more thing i'd like to throw in here is that when the gun is empty every thing works as it should, the lever and bolt close smoothly and the lever latch holds. That made me look at my ammo, but once again if i open the bolt and insert a round into the chamber manually they drop right in all the way to the rim with no resistance. Wierd

[jeepnik]

Keep us posted on how things work out. Like I say, I'm on the hunt for a good smith. And, Carlsbad isn't that far south from the Southbay.

[Griff]

I'll re-type what was about 7 or 8 paragraphs of stuff you should do BEFORE you see a gunsmith when I'm not driving. (I hate how sensitive some of the kkeys are on this keyboard)!

[Griff]

Ok, back to my post:

You might have a headspace problem, or you might just have an issue with a number of parts that don't add up to a whole any longer. Just as stacking of tolerances in a new mechanical device might not provide good service, so to can wear in the several points of wear in a model 94 Winchester.

Winchester 94s were assembled from pre-finished parts tossed in bins and the assembler just took ones out until he found ones that fit within the right tolerances. Why one gun can be as tight as a well-diggers behind, and the next might be as loose as a goose... but both work. There are three pivot points in a mdl 94; the bolt/lever pin, the lever/link pin (or screw in older ones) and, the link/frame pin (a screw in post '64s until about 2002). Any of those get worn and you might have a condition where the parts don't move properly to lock up under use conditions (a cartridge in the system).

With the gun empty, close the action fully. Check to see if the locking lug is fully up and flush with the receiver, the link is fully up and flush with the bottom of the receiver. From what you say, this should be the case. Now, open the action, take an empty/deprimed case or a dummy cartridge and put the rim of the case under the extractor and push down against the pressure of the ejector. Now, close the action. This SHOULD allow the cartridge/empty case to fully seat in the chamber and retain that level of closure as an empty gun. If not, then I suspect one of those pivot points is worn. If the locking lug is fully up and flush with the top of the receiver I don't believe it would be the "pins" on the bottom of the lug or the slots inside the link. The lug at this point is pushing as far forward on the bolt as it can. The only thing that can be done if that results in too much headspace is to use an oversided lug. They come in .005", .010" or .015" oversizes.

However, this doesn't eliminate the simple possibility that it's either the bolt/lever or link/receiver pin or their holes. Either or both could be "wallered" out (technical term there, huh?), leaving enough slack that they leave too much play.

The lever/bolt pin should be a tight fit in the lever, requiring it be driven out or in with a punch (er, drift). The pin that holds the link to the frame should be loose, but just enough to allow the link to move freely, not so tight that it could bind. If you have any side to side motion of the link the hole thru it could be loose and needs bushing to tighten it back up.

One of the best articles you can find on the disassembly of your rifle can be found by following this link: Winchester Model 94 Disassembly by Junior Doherty. A former member here, who's decision to leave this site is truly sad. The only real difference between his rifle and yours are the method of attachment for the guide rails and that his has a roll-pin instead of a screw for the lever/link connection. I'm not sure of exactly when they changed from round to oval "ears" on the bottom of the locking lug, but they disassemble and re-assemble in the same manner. The round ones are easier to see if there's apparent wear on them. Other'n that, no difference, IMO.

I'm in full agreement, you need to disassemble your rifle so that you can inspect and clean all the possible problem areas. This will help you in the long run by giving the gunsmith you select a starting point, and eliminate wasted effort. All of which will be billed to you... he will have to double check your assumptions, but it should speed this effort mightily.

Check here for gunsmiths that can probably do the work: Levergun Gunsmiths. Some of them specialize in specific models and types of work. You'd probably be money ahead using someone familar with the basic guns and paying for shipping both ways than hunting for a gunsmith in your area that might, or might not be really competent. I will, however, recommend Mike Hunter in a heartbeat. He's done some fabulous work for others on this forum. I've not heard a negative comment regarding his work. But, like other things in life, the really competent guys (or gals) are busy, might not get to you right away. So, you've got to ask yourself, do you want it done NOW, or done RIGHT? As always, contact them, talk to them, get a feel for their abilities, find out when they can do the work, and important note, ask them when to send the gun. They might have limited space, and have a thousand guns waiting for work can be intimidating, and risk of loss increases.

Hope the above helps you. Might even solve your problem yourself. Or at least help you identify the problem for your conversation with a gunsmith.

[zoner]

Griff,thanks for taking the time to help. Lots of info in your post and thanks for your knowledge. My next move is to re-read your postand spend some time studying a parts diagram,watch some more disassembly video and see if i can work out what's going on here. Yes, getting it right is infinately more important than doing it fast....hopefully after work today i'll have time to start lookin at it.......good day

[.45colt]

Zoner, several years ago I picked up a Model 64 Winchester (A variant of the 94) that was made in 1953. it had been hunted alot but I don't think shot much....one thing was it was full of old dried oil and grease. like J Miller said I pulled the stock off and got a can of Gunscrubber. this stuff may be carb/brake cleaner in a fancy wrapper, but anyway when I sprayed the action out what came out looked like an old sewer pipe. it worked very well. just My .02.Good Luck.

[zoner]

Griff, i tried both your tests and everything worked as it should pretty much, the lug comes up all the way,the bolt closes, the pins are as you said they should be, but one thing that i am now noticing is that the rear edge of the link itself doesn't want to come up completely flush when i close the action. It comes up shy about two thicknesses of paper. If i put my thumb on the link there and apply pressure up it moves ever so slightly and i can feel the lever latch engage as it should.

[zoner]

i've been studying schematics, watching disassembly videos, and reading the stuff at the link Griff gave me. Saturday i'm gonna tear down, clean, and inspect the innards of this Model 94.....will report findings....Mike

[Griff]

i've been studying schematics, watching disassembly videos, and reading the stuff at the link Griff gave me. Saturday i'm gonna tear down, clean, and inspect the innards of this Model 94.....will report findings....Mike

Good luck with that. Hopefully, something will be apparent that can be fixed. I can't think of an easy way to "adjust" the way the link moves. Be sure to report back what you do find, always nice to learn something new.

[zoner]

I finally got the gumption to disassemble this rifle and investigate my problem...even with the great info from Griff i was still scared to tear down this rifle, but today I went at it. FYI the link Griff gave me was spot on. Good info,easy to understand, no parts left over . Cleaned and inspected all the parts and screws and really didn't find any major wear,no hogged out holes or significant wear to screws. Lubed where applicable and reassembled and my link still looks like it's a teeny bit from coming all the way up and the latch doesn't hold as it should. the tip of the latch "plunger" looked good to me but since i don't really know what a new one should look like i can't tell for sure if that's the culprit. Sooooo it looks like a trip to the gunsmith is in order......Mike

[71fan]

Zoner,
If you end up going to a gunsmith, you don't have too many options in SD. Duncan's in San Marcos is about the only choice for the older stuff. They are very good but they take forever (plan on at least 6 months). Also, they know they sort fo have a monopoly around here and thus, they aren't cheap. I only use them if I have exhausted all other options.

PM me if you want more details. BTW, what part of SD are you in?

[zoner]

i live in the beach area. I am familiar with Duncan's, i used them 10 yrs or so ago to re-blue a rifle. They did an excellent job,but they weren't cheap.....thanks for the reply.....Mike

[zoner]

since i didn't find any significant wear in this rifle i'm thinking i'd like to try a new latch plunger and spring....does anyone have a diagram or schematic that tells what Winchester calls these parts specifically?

[donw]

Duncans in San Marcos is a good one and there's also "The shootist" in Murrieta if you don't mind the drive. they specialize in "Old guns".

[Griff]

zoner,

Here's the info on what Winchester calls these parts:
U349993240 FRICTION STUD
U346401290 FRICTION STUD SPRING
U344100380 FRICTION STUD STOP PIN

However, the rifle you have uses a solid pin, and the one above is a roll-pin.

[zoner]

thanks Griff

[zoner]

now i'm wondering if i disassemble the latch can i lengthen(stretch) the spring a bit to increase tension on the friction stud....or maybe drop a bb or small ball bearing in the hole before installing the spring and stud. Anybody tried this?

[zoner]

i ordered and recieved a new friction stud,spring,and friction stud retaining pin.When i removed these parts from my gun the first thing i noticed was the new spring was almost 1/8th of an inch longer than the one in my gun..i cleaned out the hole the stud goes in and installed the new parts and viola!!! no more falling lever and best of all no expensive trip to a gunsmith. I spent a grand total of $16.00 for the parts and shipping from numrich . And best of all in the process of fixing it I learned how to disassemble and reassemble my M94. Thanks Griff for the encouragment and the link you gave me on disassembly.....I am one happy camper.....Mike

[jjames]

Somethings don't take forever at Duncan's others do.They have done recoil pads, sight installation and a trigger job on various guns for me in two to three weeks. A new main spring for my Model 23 took about 8 months. I have had pretty good luck with them.

Someone mentioned Freddy Brunner definately an old world old school gunsmith he bent a couple shotguns (cast-off) for me. He is a bit eccentric.

Bolsa gunsmithing used to be a factory authorized repair center for many manufacturers. They are not too far away and again I have had pretty goood luck with them. One of Duncan's gunsmiths used to work for them.

My FFL Don Gussler is a gunsmith but I have never used him. Has always dealt straight up with me on numerous transactions.

[Griff]

i ordered and recieved a new friction stud,spring,and friction stud retaining pin.When i removed these parts from my gun the first thing i noticed was the new spring was almost 1/8th of an inch longer than the one in my gun..i cleaned out the hole the stud goes in and installed the new parts and viola!!! no more falling lever and best of all no expensive trip to a gunsmith. I spent a grand total of $16.00 for the parts and shipping from numrich . And best of all in the process of fixing it I learned how to disassemble and reassemble my M94. Thanks Griff for the encouragment and the link you gave me on disassembly.....I am one happy camper.....Mike

Congrats Zoner. Glad that the parts cured the problem!

[1894cfan]

one more thing i'd like to throw in here is that when the gun is empty every thing works as it should, the lever and bolt close smoothly and the lever latch holds. That made me look at my ammo, but once again if i open the bolt and insert a round into the chamber manually they drop right in all the way to the rim with no resistance. Wierd

My '41 94 does the same thing, eccept the problem with the lever latch. It's just hard to close the lever on a chambered round. My '77 94 on the other hand levers with or without ammo like a hot knife through butter.

[zoner]

it's funny, i'm 59 yrs old and still want to fix ( or try to fix) anything that won't work right and if i had this problem 30 yrs ago i would have boldly dove in and most likely screwed it up royally. I took my time(weeks), did lot's of research so i'd understand what's going on when i worked that lever. After i cleaned and reassembled everything i thought i was done since i found no significant wear at pin or pivot points, but i put it away instead of taking it somewhere. Kept thinking about the latch itself and ordered the parts from numrich.....i was gamblin 16 bucks at numrich against an expensive trip to the gunsmith and it worked out....for once

[spaceman spiff]

i ordered and recieved a new friction stud,spring,and friction stud retaining pin.When i removed these parts from my gun the first thing i noticed was the new spring was almost 1/8th of an inch longer than the one in my gun..i cleaned out the hole the stud goes in and installed the new parts and viola!!! no more falling lever and best of all no expensive trip to a gunsmith. I spent a grand total of $16.00 for the parts and shipping from numrich . And best of all in the process of fixing it I learned how to disassemble and reassemble my M94. Thanks Griff for the encouragment and the link you gave me on disassembly.....I am one happy camper.....Mike

that's cool........... congrats on the fix

spaceman

[Griff]

one more thing i'd like to throw in here is that when the gun is empty every thing works as it should, the lever and bolt close smoothly and the lever latch holds. That made me look at my ammo, but once again if i open the bolt and insert a round into the chamber manually they drop right in all the way to the rim with no resistance. Wierd

My '41 94 does the same thing, eccept the problem with the lever latch. It's just hard to close the lever on a chambered round. My '77 94 on the other hand levers with or without ammo like a hot knife through butter.

Is this on new ammo? If handloads, do you full-length size? Are the guide rail screws tight? Do you know the gun's history? Has the locking lug ever been replaced? The lever, link or bolt?