Conceal Carry Gun?

[tomtex]

Catshooter (now there's a handle that could be considered inflammatory in some circles ),

Terry's use of all caps is for a reason. Old timers know, new guys just have to grow with that. Just take the content and work with that.

slow2run,

We never, ever, ever, ask anyone if they've ever killed anyone. Not ever. Bad form. We can talk about shootings in general and if a person cares to mention a personal experience, observed or paticipatory, that's fine BUT we never ask.

Further, the questions you ask are so broad in scope that it is obvious you DO need to do a lot of reading before asking any questions. There are literally thousands of pages on the subject and it isn't reasonable to expect them to be rewritten here.

Sorry members Guess, I've did it so much in the wars, it just seem natural to ask about civilian ammo.

[44/40]

Try not to be too put off or insulted by our resident know it all's crude response to your questions. You must understand that he is one of the blessed few who apparently was never a novice at anything, and was born knowing all there is to know, about everything. I hope you, poor mortal, won't be turned off to this site because of him. There is a wealth of true knowledge and many combined years of experience willingly shared here, and it's yours for the asking.

[TravisM]

@ slow2run: I have a few thoughts to throw in before you buy.
What will you be wearing on average when you're carrying the gun?
How will you be carrying it? (In the waistband, ankle, pocket, shoulder holster, ect.)

I've just started carrying myself here in hot and sticky Florida and I will freely admit that the weather affects what I wear and consequently what I carry and how I carry it.

On the really hot days it's a P3AT in a pocket holster while on our two winter days it's a full sized Ruger P-95 in an inside the waistband holster.

[FWiedner]

There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this board, thus an abundance of "know-it-alls". It's no secret and there's no need to be rude about it.

One simply needs to decide whether he benefits most from snotty condescention, from conclusions based on professional observation and experience, or from trial and error opinion, or from D, all of the above. We've pretty much got it all.

The main thing is to answer the question. Keep the main thing the main thing and all that.

There's not one concealed carry solution that works for every person in every application. Most people, even professionals learn what works for them through a prolonged process of trial and error. Side-arm, holster, carry position... we all go through a period of discovering what works best for our own purpose.

Read the advice. Buy a book. Ask questions. Try stuff on and out. You'll end up with a bucket-full of opinions, a shelf full of books, a drawer full of holsters, and several guns, some better than others.

Everybody does it.

[kimwcook]

I've gone to probably close to a 100 autopsies and a good majority of death's were caused by gunshots. I've learned, as has been said, you never really know what's going to happen. I've seen 22LR's zip right through a person and I've seen multiple shots of 9mm FMJ at point blank range never exit the body. There are more intelligent choices out there. For example I'd never carry FMJ in my self defense guns. Bullet design has come a long way.

FWeidner, Cops don't get a free ride at least around my AO. In fact two separate incidents have occurred just within the last month in my jurisdiction where bad guys were stopped from successfully completing their unlawful acts by civilians using firearms and I don't believe they'll get charged with homicide. Now, I'm not the Prosecutor and the determining factor, but I don't see it happening. These incidents are still under investigation so I can't say anymore than that.

As an LEO I certainly don't go into a situation thinking I can get away with almost anything. I hold myself actually to a higher standard because I know the elements needed to be sure I'm in good standing.

[Bill in Oregon]

Kim: Thank you for your service in law enforcement. Even one autopsy is too much for many folks.
Considering your experience, would you say a non-LEO civilian is well defended on an everyday basis with a concealable 9mm with the best available bullet/ammunition?

[KCSO]

Before you can have answers you need questions. Beware anyone who gives you a pat answer for this as there is none. #1 How big are you and what is yor body type, how do you intend to carry, what are you comfortable shooting. Will you carry every day all day or onlly when you don't need it (hint hint) What type of holster do you prefer, any handicaps, ect. THEN when all the questions are answered you need to start looking. I carry every day all day and usually carry either a Para commander light weight 45 or a ful size 1911. When I expect trouble I add a S and W airweight snubbie and a 22 derringer, and tote a sawed off 12 bore IF I can.

I am 6 foot plus and 195 pounds with long fingers and moderate size hands. I carry ONLY in a holster for the main gun and the S and W rides in a special pocked in my jacket. The derringer rides in a second cuff case. My dad has had to go from a semi auto to a revolver because of problem with his hand and working a slide. Another freiend can't take the recoil of anything bigger than a38 because of artheritis. I spent 2 hours yesterday with a woman trying every gun in the shop till she found one that fit her hand and her abiliities.

[Blaine]

For those that don't know, TERRY is a present and past master of firearms, a Shootiest, and is one of the few remaining of the original professionals that brought firearms and ammo up to a modern level. A butt chewing by him shows he cares and wants you to learn. I'd be honored to take one from him anytime I said something. Heck, flip it back to him: Water off a duck's back when the duck knows he can swim with the best of them

[Booger Bill]

I have known many "experts" in many fields. It`s no excuse at all to be a person.

[mikld]

I do too. At first I didnt want to insult anyone, but thinking on it, the guru is pretty quick to insult. Why should he get a pass? Any other newby come in here and react like that would be attacked by many like stink on, -- well you know what I mean! I know he is more knowledgable and experianced than me, but I think of my dad. Pa was one of the tallest, toughest well built men in our area, a lot like clint walker, (cheyanne). Never ever did dad try to intiminate someone or throw his weight around. If he got off a plane or train he was the last one off. Dad was one of the most respected people of all that knew him. GET IT TERRY?

A lot of folks around here think he's a "cute, loveable old curmudgeon". He has a vast knowledge about most aspects of firearms, so he is allowed to be as much of an *** as he wants...

[Hobie]

Hay thanks For the comments, has anyone killed a human with the 380 rd what happen, did it stop them, if it did what type or brand of ammo? Also will the 9 mm over power these small guns, what is best type of 9 mm ammo ,that shouldn't over penetrate the body ,in your opinion?

You did ask and I do take exception to it. Those I know who have the experience you say you have don't ask such a question. I hope I've been clear this time.

There have been stopping power studies of the various cartridges which a google search will uncover.

[Blaine]

cute, loveable

[tomtex]

Hay thanks For the comments, has anyone killed a human with the 380 rd what happen, did it stop them, if it did what type or brand of ammo? Also will the 9 mm over power these small guns, what is best type of 9 mm ammo ,that shouldn't over penetrate the body ,in your opinion?

You did ask and I do take exception to it. Those I know who have the experience you say you have don't ask such a question. I hope I've been clear this time.

There have been stopping power studies of the various cartridges which a google search will uncover.

Hobie if you're talking to me, I have said that I was sorry to the members ,for asking about the affect of a 380 RD on the human body. So why must you continue with this? Let me say those with the Experience are on the Battle Fields, and we not only talk about our kills ,we brag about them to each other , and we do kill our country enemies by the dozens ,to protect our buddies and families . Airborne

[Blaine]

Ok, Troop....this is Hobie's room, not the Day Room....Take a hint.... Thanks for your service...Hobie's service lasted for well over 20 years.

[Catshooter]

For those that don't know, TERRY is a present and past master of firearms, a Shootiest, and is one of the few remaining of the original professionals that brought firearms and ammo up to a modern level. A butt chewing by him shows he cares and wants you to learn. I'd be honored to take one from him anytime I said something. Heck, flip it back to him: Water off a duck's back when the duck knows he can swim with the best of them

In my (limited) experience those who are really at the top of their field are generally the most pleasant, polite and helpful people you'd ever want to meet.

I think you're just trying to minimize and excuse his rude behavior, which is a commendable thing for you to do.


Cat

[OJ]

Am I in a serious minority here - or do I not understand the question?





For me, a Colt (or other) Government Model 45 ACP (or Commander) is hard to beat. Those big 230 gr bullets make big holes that let out a lot of blood and in a lot of air and don't over penetrate.

[FWiedner]

For me, a Colt (or other) Government Model 45 ACP (or Commander) is hard to beat. Those big 230 gr bullets make big holes that let out a lot of blood and in a lot of air and don't over penetrate.

Facts are facts.

[tomtex]

Ok, Troop....this is Hobie's room, not the Day Room....Take a hint.... Thanks for your service...Hobie's service lasted for well over 20 years.

*** The Hint is taken.I fill like the UCMJ is after me.

[KCSO]

With out getting into the whole stopping power myth, folks have been killed with every bullet and every ctg ever made. The biggest guy in the County was kiled by one shot from a 22 short. Meanwhile my Uncle took two rounds from a german machine gun and killed his assailant with a singe 45 round. I have been to enough autopsies that i will say I don't want to get shot with anything! I wil refer yoou to Jeff Cooper who once said,"a solid hit from a 22 is worth a lot more than a loud miss with a 44". Chose a gun that fits you and that you can shoot and shoot well and then practice. If you rely on anyting let it be solid hits put where they need to go. If you can handle it and IF you are prepared to carry it get as big a gun as you can manage, provided you can shoot it well.

nuff said

[kimwcook]

Bill in Oregon, I believe with the current crop of available ammunition one is well armed with a 9mm. That said shot placement is crucial. I've seen 45 ACP's fail to stop with multiple rounds and 22LR kill with one shot. I've seen people shot five times with a 22LR straight through the torso and live and shot once with a 9mm and die. In general it's about placement. I had two different cases where the victim was shot once in the head with a 22LR and they both died. I've assisted in another incident where a guy was shot dead center in the forehead with the bullet exiting the top of the skull and he lived. I could go on and on. As you can see nothing is for certain.

[OJ]

Well, this keeps coming up - I practiced surgery nearly 40 years - having spent my internship and surgery residency training at what was the county hospital for the Detroit area. About 23% of our surgery there was trauma surgery - most of which were GSWs ( gun shot wounds) - so I can speak from a fair amount of experience.

There is no question but that th .22LR can be lethal - granted, it may take several days from shot to death but, in my experience, easily 90%+ of 22LR wounds failed to produce significant injury.

I did see one man who was caught out with another man's wife and was shot with a 22 about half way between belly button and sternum - and was permanently paralyzed for life below th waist - but, it was 22 Magnum and a freak shot the went between vertebral bodies to sever th spinal cord.

Early in my private practice (about 1965) I was on call for one of our ERs (we rotated call then). A young man - about 5'8" tall and about 220# of muscle and bone - was just released from active duty with the USMC and out with his girl friend. A car full of no-goodniks ran him off the road so the Marine got out of his car to explain the folly of the other driver's actions in a very personal way.

That driver was well over 6' tall and well over 200# of mostly muscle (tell you later how I know that). H pulled the revolver loaded with 22 LR ammo and emptied it at the Marine - hitting him 5 of th 6 shots - all solid body wounds. The Marine then proceeded to express his feelings about the big guy's actions with his fists and then came into the ER.

X-Rays showed none had gone beyond muscle so no operation was needed (we learned long ago trying to remove bullets from muscle caused more damage than good) - so we just treated those by observation for possible infection.

When I said we would admit him over night for observation, he was understandably very opposed to that action - reminding me he had just come in to get a tetanus shot and some band-aids since he had serious plans for the evening. I had to agree with his requests and gave him follow up in my office. He never had any problem and enjoyed his night as planned.

About that time, I was called from the other hospital across town to consult with the surgeon on call there who had less experience with trauma than he knew I had. It seemed there was this big guy who was "attacked by a gang" and, in addition to multiple facial injuries, had possible internal injuries - specifically possible ruptured spleen or other internal organs. I decided on observation and he spent the next five days in the intensive care unit under close observation. Didn't have internal injuries but needed repair of his facial wounds.

One might hope he got some religion also.

[Griff]

1st, Terry ain't a "cute, lovable crumudgeon" in my book, neither is he rude and certainly not crude. What his grandkids (if any) say, might be different.

I happen to agree with 'im. In fact, both he & Hobie have shown more restraint than I'm inclined to feel is called for. I gotta say I'm just gonna muzzle myself, otherwise I won't be able to follow the Forum Rules.

[claybob86]

When I said we would admit him over night for observation, he was understandably very opposed to that action - reminding me he had just come in to get a tetanus shot and some band-aids since he had serious plans for the evening. I had to agree with his requests and gave him follow up in my office. He never had any problem and enjoyed his night as planned.

Yeah, well, the guy was a United States Marine! I would expect no less!

[olyinaz]

Airborne

And to that I say HOOAH.

Oly

[olyinaz]

OJ, that was a great tale!

Best,
Oly

[kevin in nh]

I have carried everything over the years and have deceided (for me) that the Kahr PM909 w/ Gold Dot +P+ 9MM fit the bill.....6' 1" 195, and its the gun I can have concealed 100% of the time. As a Fire arms instructor for my PD I/we will not qual anyone w/a 22.....32 minimum, and you have to do the standard duty qual back to back. The Kahr is carried in my left front pocket and my hand is usually on it....draw is quicker than any holster.....and every cop I know would rather talk someone down than ever shoot anyone....the 9mm works for me......training , training , training....when the S.h.T.F you revert to your training.....

[jeepnik]

It really comes down to "You pays your money, and takes your choice". Then like all decisions, "you have to live with the consequences". Life ain't all that complicated unless you want it to be.

[Griff]

...and every cop I know would rather talk someone down than ever shoot anyone....the 9mm works for me......training , training , training....when the S.h.T.F you revert to your training.....

Amen, brother. Although it did sorta land me in scalding water once... they attempted to reprogram me. I KNEW it was a training session... but when the martial arts expert picked ME, saying hey, if this old guy (I was 42 at the time) can take this gun away from me, any of you young guys should be able to do it. Yep, when he gave the cue he was going on the attack (impossible to stop, and easy to spot if you know what to look for), I reverted to my training. He landed on his back with his practice pistol squirtin' water right in his solar plexus. Took both his assistants to pull me off him, and I'm sure I was screamin' bloody murder... I know that everyone else was! Sheriff said he wished he'd video taped that! Told me to NEVER train any of his deputies to do that. I was "asked" to join the Sheriff's Posse shortly thereafter. Cushy duty, but sorta sidelined. It'd been almost 22 years since I'd been taught that move, and went right into it, brain overrode what it'd tried to be fed not 5 minutes before. I'd never used that move in the interim, kinda gratifying to know that it does actually work, although now that another, nearly 20 years have passed, I wonder if this now "even older" guy could pull it off... Hope I never have to find out! Adrenalin... the original joy-juice!

OJ, great story on what attitude can do.

[Bill in Oregon]

Kim, OJ, thanks for sharing personal experience on a difficult subject.

[OJ]

Thanks, guys, for the kind words. I was sure that Marine was just eager to get his very attractive girl friend home so they could listen to chamber music - or something not involving strenuous physical activity - .

True story, though. Actually, most 22LR wounds I saw were in the abdomen - domestic quarrels - where one (wife usually) would grab a rifle to defend herself and the husband would grab the barrel and pull it to disarm her - she evidently didn't know about keeping finger off the trigger - so the 22 rifle discharged even though she had no intention of doing anything but threatening for her defense.

I never saw one that caused any damage other than what we caused by doing the necessary exploratory operation. It was common at the Detroit county hospital but less so when I started private practice here in Colorado Springs. One socially prominent guy came in with such wound one evening with the story he had been hunting and the rifle went off as he was getting it out of the back seat when he got home. I gave that the attention it deserved - didn't affect my treatment and I really had no interest in his personal problems - but, it drove the police crazy - they wanted me to tell them how they could get the truth out of him. I finally pointed out there would be no charges filed so they might as well forget getting any better info from him.

My six years at the Detroit county hospital gave me great understanding of a level of life I had never seen in Denver.

[tomtex]

With out getting into the whole stopping power myth, folks have been killed with every bullet and every ctg ever made. The biggest guy in the County was kiled by one shot from a 22 short. Meanwhile my Uncle took two rounds from a german machine gun and killed his assailant with a singe 45 round. I have been to enough autopsies that i will say I don't want to get shot with anything! I wil refer yoou to Jeff Cooper who once said,"a solid hit from a 22 is worth a lot more than a loud miss with a 44". Chose a gun that fits you and that you can shoot and shoot well and then practice. If you rely on anyting let it be solid hits put where they need to go. If you can handle it and IF you are prepared to carry it get as big a gun as you can manage, provided you can shoot it well.

nuff said

***Getting shot on the battle field , is like being hit with a teachers paddle, if you have time you will explore the area with your hand and find a warm liquid, you then bring you hand to your face and see its blood. depending on the type of wound or wounds and loss of blood you can normally stay in the fight for 8 to 12 hours. this because the bullet has killed all the nerves in the wound area. But after 12 hours, assuming your medic has stop the bleeding, the pain will starts and it can be immobilizing for you , and for you to continue the fight will be difficult and very painful. Note: Those second day gun shot wounds are hell , also a hit in your vitals is a different story, you want last the day ,if you're not evacuated to a hospital, Knife wounds hurts like hell when your hit . So do Mortar Fragments.

[msmith1228]

I like to carry a NAA Guardian in 32NAA. It's easy to conceal and potent. Looks tiny next to an old 45.
Mack

[tomtex]

Hay thanks For the comments, has anyone killed a human with the 380 rd what happen, did it stop them, if it did what type or brand of ammo? Also will the 9 mm over power these small guns, what is best type of 9 mm ammo ,that shouldn't over penetrate the body ,in your opinion?

You did ask and I do take exception to it. Those I know who have the experience you say you have don't ask such a question. I hope I've been clear this time.

There have been stopping power studies of the various cartridges which a google search will uncover.

Hobie I'm very sorry that i posted that, and will never do it agin .

[Old Ironsights]

Hay thanks For the comments, has anyone killed a human with the 380 rd what happen, did it stop them, if it did what type or brand of ammo? Also will the 9 mm over power these small guns, what is best type of 9 mm ammo ,that shouldn't over penetrate the body ,in your opinion?

You did ask and I do take exception to it. Those I know who have the experience you say you have don't ask such a question. I hope I've been clear this time.

There have been stopping power studies of the various cartridges which a google search will uncover.

Hobie I'm very sorry that i posted that, and will never do it agin .

It's OK. There are "rules of decorum" that are not necessarily explicit Like all Taboos, some folks "get it" naturally, some need to be told.

[L_Kilkenny]

ttt

LK

[Streetstar]

Colt Detective Special, Sig P238 --- The Ds holds 6, 238 technically holds 7 if i keep one in the pipe.

The 238 is very easy to shoot for a "mouse gun" -- The DS is not too bad either as it is a bit bigger than conventional 5 shot Smith's, but it is not as concealable as the 238.

[Canuck Bob]

I can't carry one but I'm addicted to real cop and crime shows. It is amazing how often autos are reported to jam in use. I suspect there is a factor for poor or ignorant use and cleaning by low lifes. I once owned a 45 Auto and thought it pretty reliable.