Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
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- KirkD
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Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
As some of you may recall, about a month and a half ago I had the good fortune of finally acquiring an original Winchester Model 1895 38-72 with a rapid taper octagon barrel, after many years of wanting one and having given up hope of ever getting one. This particular one was made in 1904 and shipped in 1905. It is still in very nice shape. Here’s a photo .....
Last weekend at a local gun show, I picked up an original 38-72 cartridge shown below. For comparison, from left to right, is the 45-70, the 30-30, an original black powder WRACO 38-55, an original 38-72 cartridge with jacketed bullet, and last of all, a 30-06 cartridge.
Another fellow (Shasta) who also owns an original 38-72 graciously loaned me an original Winchester 38-72 mould that he owned. With excitement, I casted well over 300 bullets. The naked bullets, before lubing, weighed 277. 4 grains, plus or minus 0.2 grains. The diameter, using wheelweights and a wee bit of tin, was .378”. The photos below show what the bullet looks like. The long nose-to-driving band ratio has turned out to be a bit of a problem, as I learned over the past month with a lot of work on loads.
It turns out that the bullet has a tendency to wobble slightly, judging from the slightly oval holes at 100 yards that I consistently observed. I tried to speed up the bullets to see if they would stabilize better, but found that the groups really opened up if I got much above 1,430 fps. The original black powder velocity was 1,425 fps, but black powder gives a pretty high peak pressure spike which obturates the lead bullet to seal off the bore. I found that slower smokeless powders just couldn’t produce enough pressure at 1,425 fps to do the job and I couldn’t go faster without groups really opening up. In situations like this, 2400 usually comes to my rescue as it gives a very similar peak pressure to black powder, all other things being equal. After some experimentation across the chronograph in my back yard, I settled on 17.5 grains of 2400 under the 277 grain cast bullet in my once fired Jamison brass. Let’s hear it for Jamison, they actually make 38-72 brass for a reasonable price!! I think I paid around $28 for 20 cases; I ain’t complaining about that at all.
I headed to the range just 8 minutes down the road that runs past our house. Out of curiosity, I decided to fire 5 rounds with the powder forward in the case (gun was level, but I tipped each cartridge nose down as I loaded it) and 5 rounds with the powder back (I’d tip the muzzle up while loading, and then level the gun). What an education!! In the photo below you can see the results, two different average velocities and two different groups with the same load. The powder forward gave an average velocity of 1,290 fps and the high group on the target. The powder back gave an average velocity of 1,425 fps and the low group, with one hole just below the paper. Range was 100 yards. The 1,425 fps group was 2 & 9/16” for five shots at 100 yards. The 1,290 fps group was 2 & 3/8” for four shots, but I wasn’t sure where the fifth shot was. The slower velocity had more oval holes in the back board, indicating it was clearly less stable, though the fast group still had slightly oval holes. Here’s the target ....
That lower group obtained with 17.5 grains of 2400 and the powder forward for 1,425 fps is the tightest load I was able to find after a lot of loads tried over this past month. This is not surprising, as the velocity is the same as the BP velocity and the pressure was very close as well. However, I am not happy with it, as I figure if the bullets are slightly wobbling at 100 yards, they will be worse at 200 and I want good accuracy at 200 yards. Furthermore, I cannot have a load with such position sensitivity. I don’t want to have to think about powder position when I am hunting, especially when it makes a difference of seven inches vertical between back and forward! The solution, of course, is filler, but I would have to use a lot of it with 2400 and I prefer to use filler with slower powders ..... but I can’t use slower powders because the pressure is not high enough to obturate the bullet and I can’t raise the pressure by going for a higher velocity with slower powders because the groups really go south fast with this plain base bullet.
Stabilization Problem: Winchester must have had a similar problem with their cast bullet. According to Madis, the 38-72 first came out with a 1:26 twist in 1895. Around 1904 they increased it to 1:18 and then later to 1:16. As near as I can measure, the twist of my rapid taper octagon barrel is 1:26, so I’m not optimistic I can get rid of that bullet wobble at 1,425 fps. With this in mind, I have given up on this bullet; the nose is just too long for the length of the driving band portion. The fellow who loaned me the mould (Shasta) has come to the same conclusion with that bullet in his 38-72. The long, narrow 277 grain bullet just won’t completely stabilize at 1,425 fps, which just so happens to be the velocity that seems to give the greatest accuracy. I am ordering a custom gas check bullet that has a longer driving band section than nose section. It should be more stable and I should be able to push it a bit faster up to 1,475 fps, which was the later velocity of the 38-72. Incidentally, Winchester quit making the 38-72 in 1909 and production of ammunition ceased in 1936.
Establishing a benchmark for this rifle: Finally, I wanted a benchmark accuracy. What is this rifle capable of with the right bullets? I decided to load up five more of my dwindling stash of custom swaged .3775 JSP bullets weighing 246 grains. The load was 28 grains of RL-7. Average velocity was 1,605 fps, but I found that with powder forward I got only 1,536 fps. The first shot ticked the top of the paper so Iowered the rear sight one notch and fired my remaining four rounds to get a four shot group of 1 & ¾” at 100 yards. This old rifle can be a tack driver with the right bullet! I am really looking forward to trying some gas check bullets in this old rifle. Here’s a photo of the JSP bullet and the target .....
Last weekend at a local gun show, I picked up an original 38-72 cartridge shown below. For comparison, from left to right, is the 45-70, the 30-30, an original black powder WRACO 38-55, an original 38-72 cartridge with jacketed bullet, and last of all, a 30-06 cartridge.
Another fellow (Shasta) who also owns an original 38-72 graciously loaned me an original Winchester 38-72 mould that he owned. With excitement, I casted well over 300 bullets. The naked bullets, before lubing, weighed 277. 4 grains, plus or minus 0.2 grains. The diameter, using wheelweights and a wee bit of tin, was .378”. The photos below show what the bullet looks like. The long nose-to-driving band ratio has turned out to be a bit of a problem, as I learned over the past month with a lot of work on loads.
It turns out that the bullet has a tendency to wobble slightly, judging from the slightly oval holes at 100 yards that I consistently observed. I tried to speed up the bullets to see if they would stabilize better, but found that the groups really opened up if I got much above 1,430 fps. The original black powder velocity was 1,425 fps, but black powder gives a pretty high peak pressure spike which obturates the lead bullet to seal off the bore. I found that slower smokeless powders just couldn’t produce enough pressure at 1,425 fps to do the job and I couldn’t go faster without groups really opening up. In situations like this, 2400 usually comes to my rescue as it gives a very similar peak pressure to black powder, all other things being equal. After some experimentation across the chronograph in my back yard, I settled on 17.5 grains of 2400 under the 277 grain cast bullet in my once fired Jamison brass. Let’s hear it for Jamison, they actually make 38-72 brass for a reasonable price!! I think I paid around $28 for 20 cases; I ain’t complaining about that at all.
I headed to the range just 8 minutes down the road that runs past our house. Out of curiosity, I decided to fire 5 rounds with the powder forward in the case (gun was level, but I tipped each cartridge nose down as I loaded it) and 5 rounds with the powder back (I’d tip the muzzle up while loading, and then level the gun). What an education!! In the photo below you can see the results, two different average velocities and two different groups with the same load. The powder forward gave an average velocity of 1,290 fps and the high group on the target. The powder back gave an average velocity of 1,425 fps and the low group, with one hole just below the paper. Range was 100 yards. The 1,425 fps group was 2 & 9/16” for five shots at 100 yards. The 1,290 fps group was 2 & 3/8” for four shots, but I wasn’t sure where the fifth shot was. The slower velocity had more oval holes in the back board, indicating it was clearly less stable, though the fast group still had slightly oval holes. Here’s the target ....
That lower group obtained with 17.5 grains of 2400 and the powder forward for 1,425 fps is the tightest load I was able to find after a lot of loads tried over this past month. This is not surprising, as the velocity is the same as the BP velocity and the pressure was very close as well. However, I am not happy with it, as I figure if the bullets are slightly wobbling at 100 yards, they will be worse at 200 and I want good accuracy at 200 yards. Furthermore, I cannot have a load with such position sensitivity. I don’t want to have to think about powder position when I am hunting, especially when it makes a difference of seven inches vertical between back and forward! The solution, of course, is filler, but I would have to use a lot of it with 2400 and I prefer to use filler with slower powders ..... but I can’t use slower powders because the pressure is not high enough to obturate the bullet and I can’t raise the pressure by going for a higher velocity with slower powders because the groups really go south fast with this plain base bullet.
Stabilization Problem: Winchester must have had a similar problem with their cast bullet. According to Madis, the 38-72 first came out with a 1:26 twist in 1895. Around 1904 they increased it to 1:18 and then later to 1:16. As near as I can measure, the twist of my rapid taper octagon barrel is 1:26, so I’m not optimistic I can get rid of that bullet wobble at 1,425 fps. With this in mind, I have given up on this bullet; the nose is just too long for the length of the driving band portion. The fellow who loaned me the mould (Shasta) has come to the same conclusion with that bullet in his 38-72. The long, narrow 277 grain bullet just won’t completely stabilize at 1,425 fps, which just so happens to be the velocity that seems to give the greatest accuracy. I am ordering a custom gas check bullet that has a longer driving band section than nose section. It should be more stable and I should be able to push it a bit faster up to 1,475 fps, which was the later velocity of the 38-72. Incidentally, Winchester quit making the 38-72 in 1909 and production of ammunition ceased in 1936.
Establishing a benchmark for this rifle: Finally, I wanted a benchmark accuracy. What is this rifle capable of with the right bullets? I decided to load up five more of my dwindling stash of custom swaged .3775 JSP bullets weighing 246 grains. The load was 28 grains of RL-7. Average velocity was 1,605 fps, but I found that with powder forward I got only 1,536 fps. The first shot ticked the top of the paper so Iowered the rear sight one notch and fired my remaining four rounds to get a four shot group of 1 & ¾” at 100 yards. This old rifle can be a tack driver with the right bullet! I am really looking forward to trying some gas check bullets in this old rifle. Here’s a photo of the JSP bullet and the target .....
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk,
I appreciate you taking the time to post this.
I appreciate you taking the time to post this.
- earlmck
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk, much thanks for this great post with all the pictures and the details. I am really enjoying keeping up with the 38-72 saga as you and Shasta work with this interesting cartridge. I've never owned a 38-72, probably never will, so won't be able to take advantage of any specific stuff you fellows come up with. But the whole adventure strongly parallels what us levernuts go through when we get a new cartridge to work with and it doesn't reward our efforts with immediate success and we have to work at it using logic and trial & error and persistance. All good fun!
The greatest patriot...
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
is he who heals the most gullies. Patrick Henry
- Shasta
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk, excellent and informative as always. On your Jamison brass, what is the case neck thickness? I think I need to order a hundred or so as they are much less expensive than the Bertram brass I have been using.
I am very much looking forward to hearing how your new bullet performs!
SHASTA
I am very much looking forward to hearing how your new bullet performs!
SHASTA
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
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http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Well done Kirk.
I am wondering tho what the groups might look like if you seated the bullet past the driving band?
Also sometimes a simple change in lube can make a great deal of difference in groups.
I am wondering tho what the groups might look like if you seated the bullet past the driving band?
Also sometimes a simple change in lube can make a great deal of difference in groups.
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Thanks for sharing your work on this interesting cartridge and fine rifle. I'm following both your's and Shasta's posts with a lot of interest. There's so many variables...it's difficult to make suggestions from here...just keep working through them and I'm sure you'll find a combination that suits you. THEN...we want to see some hunting results..!!
I love these old BP cartridges, 38/72 is one of the most interesting to me. For some reason, I've always found the "less than .45's" more appealing to read about than the "45-up" BP rounds.
I love these old BP cartridges, 38/72 is one of the most interesting to me. For some reason, I've always found the "less than .45's" more appealing to read about than the "45-up" BP rounds.
- Borregos
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Excellent and very interesting post Kirk, many thanks.
Pete
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Excellent post Kirk!
Did you try Goex? I would just have to try some ffg or Swiss 1 1/2.
Did you try Goex? I would just have to try some ffg or Swiss 1 1/2.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
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ITSASS
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
- KirkD
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Don, I didn't try seating the bullet past the front driving band, but I did try half way through the front driving band, as well as behind the front driving band. With the bullet seated just forward of the front driving band, the bullet was almost touching the rifling. I didn't really see any difference in accuracy for the little bit I varied the bullet seating depth.
M.M. Wright, I thought about trying FFg, but since Shasta tried it and didn't get nice tight groups, I figured I'd put it on hold.
For me, the bottom line is that this bullet wobbles at any speed and I do know Winchester significantly increased the twist rate from 1:26 (mine) to 1:18 and then 1:16. I expect that the only thing I could do that might stop the wobbling is to really ramp up the speed, but to do that I would need to water drop the bullets to get hard cast ones, but I'd rather get a GC bullet and keep it relatively soft cast.
M.M. Wright, I thought about trying FFg, but since Shasta tried it and didn't get nice tight groups, I figured I'd put it on hold.
For me, the bottom line is that this bullet wobbles at any speed and I do know Winchester significantly increased the twist rate from 1:26 (mine) to 1:18 and then 1:16. I expect that the only thing I could do that might stop the wobbling is to really ramp up the speed, but to do that I would need to water drop the bullets to get hard cast ones, but I'd rather get a GC bullet and keep it relatively soft cast.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
- Old Savage
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Wow, very nice work there Kirk on the photography, the rifle, the project and on bringing that old boy to life.
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Have you thought about a paper patched bullet?KirkD wrote: I expect that the only thing I could do that might stop the wobbling is to really ramp up the speed, but to do that I would need to water drop the bullets to get hard cast ones, but I'd rather get a GC bullet and keep it relatively soft cast.
..
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Someday, I'd like to try paper patching. From what I understand, I should be able to drive the paper patched bullet down the bore a little faster and still keep a soft cast bullet. It does sound intriguing.Twodot wrote:Have you thought about a paper patched bullet?
..
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
The JSP bullet is over 30 grains lighter than the 277gr naked bullet...No telling what the 277 weighs when lubed... 30 grains lighter alone may be why the JSP shoots better... Seeing that the JSP has a built in gas check too, doesn't hurt either..
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk, I am no way experienced as most here but I fail to see how a bullet with longer D band will be more stable! Unless you mean it will be a little shorter!
How about a slight hollow based bullet, like a 22LR
Best wishes and thanks.
Nath.
How about a slight hollow based bullet, like a 22LR
Best wishes and thanks.
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
- KirkD
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Well, I'm not sure myself, Nath. I don't know enough about twist rates and stabilization. It just 'looks' more stable with longer driving band distance and a shorter nose. However, that is just intuition.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Very interesting post my friend. Thanks for sharing!
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Magnificient range report Kirk. As always, you set the standard. Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk,
Two thoughts. If you try PP bullets, you can vary the length of the bullet and come up with something the rifle likes. Most nose pour PP moulds can be made so the length of the bullet can be varied. The other thought is to design your own bullet. If you come up with something you think will work, Steve Brooks can make you a custom mould to most any reasonable design you submitt to him. I'm sure you can find something that will work.
ole pizen slinger
Two thoughts. If you try PP bullets, you can vary the length of the bullet and come up with something the rifle likes. Most nose pour PP moulds can be made so the length of the bullet can be varied. The other thought is to design your own bullet. If you come up with something you think will work, Steve Brooks can make you a custom mould to most any reasonable design you submitt to him. I'm sure you can find something that will work.
ole pizen slinger
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
I am considering my options. A custom mould is the one I am favouring, one that casts a lighter bullet of 255 to 260 grains with pure wheel weights and that has a gas check. That will permit me to speed up the bullet to at least 1,500 -1600 fps as well as shoot it in my 38-55.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Have you considered trying a slightly softer cast bullet with that borrowed mold that gives you a slightly wobbly result? I'm thinking of something like instead of adding a little bit of tin, trying 9 pounds of wheelweight to one pound pure lead. This has worked for me pretty well in 45-70 loads, with no leading. I lube everything I cast with Javalina, Lyman, or Lee alox and haven't encountered leading, provided my bullets fit tight. A softer bullet may be just the ticket for use with black powder loads.
I hope you come up with a good cast load for that gun. One that you'll be able to use on deer, bear, etc. I get nostalgic just looking at the photos of that rifle and your cast loads, and thinking about an old guy who had a 95 he used to hunt with down on my grandfather's old farm. His was a Krag, though.
I hope you come up with a good cast load for that gun. One that you'll be able to use on deer, bear, etc. I get nostalgic just looking at the photos of that rifle and your cast loads, and thinking about an old guy who had a 95 he used to hunt with down on my grandfather's old farm. His was a Krag, though.
- KirkD
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
I did try 19 rounds loaded with a little less SR4759 that gave a velocity of around 1,390 fps. I fired them all in a steady stream through an already dirty barrel for the purpose of seeing if there was any deterioration due to leading. There didn't seem to be. At 100 yards, 16 of the 19 rounds went into a 3" circle. I tried quite a few more loads and powders than I reported on above, covering a range of options. I could cast a harder bullet which would let me speed up the velocity a bit, but I'm thinking I'd just prefer to get a GC mould and keep the bullet soft.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Kirk have you tried a patch soaked in puregumspirits of turpentine, on a jag, down that barrel, followed by a dry patch to make doubledog sure there's no lead in there?
- KirkD
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
No, but after a good cleaning I scrubbed the bore with a wad of steel wool and it came out clean. I haven't seemed to have much of a problem with leading.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
thank you fror posting--love reading how someone trouble-shoots a cartridge--
- kimwcook
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Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
I'm staying tuned, Kirk. Excellent report. Very nice rifle and your pictures are great, as always.
Old Law Dawg
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
I believe there's a bit more to it than just shorter. A longer section at full diameter means more mass out further from the axis of rotation. The gyroscopic inertia of a bit of bullet mass rises with the square of its distance from the axis.Nath wrote:... how a bullet with longer D band will be more stable! Unless you mean it will be a little shorter!
Re: Learning a thing or two about the 38-72 (photos)
Now that does make sense, thanks. Never saw it that way.KWK wrote:I believe there's a bit more to it than just shorter. A longer section at full diameter means more mass out further from the axis of rotation. The gyroscopic inertia of a bit of bullet mass rises with the square of its distance from the axis.Nath wrote:... how a bullet with longer D band will be more stable! Unless you mean it will be a little shorter!
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!