BLR .450 Marlin. Load to level 4 45/70 equivalent?

[longshotz]

Paco gives levels of "power" to certain lever guns in 45/70; up to and including 2100FPS on newly manufactured 1886 Brownings and Winchesters.
No need to review the reasons for the .450 Marlin round, suffice to say that it is a "modernized 45/70" loaded to level 3 power.
That the '86 action Paco refers to can accommodate level 4 loads comfortably, would a 20Th century action like the BLR do no less with the .450 round? After all. the BLR is produced in the most modern 21st century high intensity cartridges operating in the 60K PSI range. Operating the .450 Marlin at level 4 45/70 (1886 pressures) seems reasonable.

[CowboyTutt]

I think your probably correct on the newer BLR's with the aluminum receivers. The bolt rotates and locks into grooves or channels into the steel barrel itself making for a very strong action. I don't believe the earlier steel ones were designed this way. That being said I would follow standard handloading practice and work up your load SLOWLY and look carefully for problems. You realize in such a light rifle that such a load is going to kick like an angry mule....

[AJMD429]

The BLR is pretty strong.

Two factors come to mind - PSI, and cartridge size (especially diameter). If a given action handles similar PSI rounds, and similar-diameter rounds, common sense says it should do just fine. I think with traditional leverguns the cartridge diameter sometimes pushes things a bit, even when the pressure doesn't; I've read there is not much metal in the barrel around the .45-70 in the Marlin 336 action, and the receiver isn't all that wide there either. That's one reason I like the .444 Marlin - similar power-level, with more metal around it.

I've read (not official 'Marlin literature' though) that Marlin redesigned thread-type and some other things so the .450 Marlin guns would have a bit extra margin of safety. Nothing they do will get them to Ruger No. 1 strength though, so I can see them as 'level 3' guns in .45-70 no matter what, whether in .450 Marlin or .45-70. The BLR is a different design entirely though, and handles 7mm Remington Magnum, which would do really bad things to the 336 I'm sure, even the 'redesigned' .450 Marlin-capable ones.

My only question would be whether or not there was a particularly good reason for bumping 'up' to .450 Marlin +P loads. Would the trajectory really be ANY flatter, given the barrel-shape of even the gummy-tip .458 bullets? Would it kill any better with a hundred or so more FPS...? Personally, if I thought the factory-level .450 Marlin loads were 'marginal' for what I'd be shooting at, I'd go for a .416 Rigby, .338 Lapua, or 10 gauge slug, depending on the range.

On the other hand, I can understand wanting to know the upper-limit of any firearm I am going to own or use, and it would be reassuring to know your BLR would not blow up with 'Level-4' .450 Marlin loads, even if all you were using was those wimpy 'Level-3' ones...

[Mike D.]

2100 FPS in an 1886? Why, I've taken even my originals to 2475 FPS. 2100 is a piece of cake with a light bullet like the 350 Barnes RN.

[CowboyTutt]

Just as an interesting side note of trivia, my friend Mic McPherson is still fairly certain that John Browning did in fact design a front locking lever gun that was never built. And the patents of said designs are all public domain now. Sure makes me wish I had the money to start up a new firearms company.....

-Tutt

[Hobie]

I would recommend that you follow the loading manuals. The .450 Marlin isn't intended to be a .458 Lott.

[longshotz]

2100 FPS in an 1886? Why, I've taken even my originals to 2475 FPS. 2100 is a piece of cake with a light bullet like the 350 Barnes RN.

How 'bout a 400 gr. at 2100+?

[longshotz]

The BLR is pretty strong.

Two factors come to mind - PSI, and cartridge size (especially diameter). If a given action handles similar PSI rounds, and similar-diameter rounds, common sense says it should do just fine. I think with traditional leverguns the cartridge diameter sometimes pushes things a bit, even when the pressure doesn't; I've read there is not much metal in the barrel around the .45-70 in the Marlin 336 action, and the receiver isn't all that wide there either. That's one reason I like the .444 Marlin - similar power-level, with more metal around it.

I've read (not official 'Marlin literature' though) that Marlin redesigned thread-type and some other things so the .450 Marlin guns would have a bit extra margin of safety. Nothing they do will get them to Ruger No. 1 strength though, so I can see them as 'level 3' guns in .45-70 no matter what, whether in .450 Marlin or .45-70. The BLR is a different design entirely though, and handles 7mm Remington Magnum, which would do really bad things to the 336 I'm sure, even the 'redesigned' .450 Marlin-capable ones.

My only question would be whether or not there was a particularly good reason for bumping 'up' to .450 Marlin +P loads. Would the trajectory really be ANY flatter, given the barrel-shape of even the gummy-tip .458 bullets? Would it kill any better with a hundred or so more FPS...? Personally, if I thought the factory-level .450 Marlin loads were 'marginal' for what I'd be shooting at, I'd go for a .416 Rigby, .338 Lapua, or 10 gauge slug, depending on the range.

On the other hand, I can understand wanting to know the upper-limit of any firearm I am going to own or use, and it would be reassuring to know your BLR would not blow up with 'Level-4' .450 Marlin loads, even if all you were using was those wimpy 'Level-3' ones...

Perhaps the 400gr Barnes original Semi-Spitzer or the 350 Speer SPFN, both at level 4 velocities might show what the .450 Marlin can really do!

[longshotz]

I would recommend that you follow the loading manuals. The .450 Marlin isn't intended to be a .458 Lott.

Pacos article got me thinking that perhaps the BLR is underutilized with current .450 Marlin loadings that are safe in an 1895 action.
Surely the BLR is stronger. IE can take +P loads safely.

How about some of you .450 Marlin BLR owners give your take on it. Surely I'm not the only one to have had these thoughts.

[86er]

I do not shoot a 450 Marlin so I am merely offering a reference and comparison. In my 45-70 1886 (22" bbl) I load 405's to 2050 fps, 430's to 1950 fps, and 450's to 1785 fps. (In a 45-90 I can do better than these by 100-150 fps) With these loads the verified pressure is within limits of the rifle, however I have run out of powder room. I may be wrong here but I don't think you can get as much powder in the 450 Marlin case as a 45-70 (and nowhere near a 45-90 capacity) and then you have a 20" bbl on a BLR (that will cost 50-100 fps when the loads get up this "hot". So, with my apples to oranges it doesn't seem like you could get "real", "useful" level 4 (as you put it) loads in the 450 Marlin. We had Grizzly load us up some 450 Marlin for a client going on a kodiak bear hunt. The most they could squeeze out was a 405 Kodiak bullet (expanding) and a matching load of 405 Punch bullet (solid) at 1900 fps. That was in a Marlin but I do not recall the barrel length. We did not chrono the loads to verify velocity. By the way - the bear thought it was just as good as level 4 45-70 loads, as he absorbed the bullet in the right ribs and spit it back out in front of his left shoulder, dropping on the spot quite dead. Shot distance 70 yds. Put a Punch in him for insurance as he faced away. Hit just above tail on spine and came out center of throat, luckily with minimal damage to the trophy. Shot distance here 20 yds. I'm curious too - does anyone think they can get more out of the 450 Marlin?

[longshotz]

I do not shoot a 450 Marlin so I am merely offering a reference and comparison. In my 45-70 1886 (22" bbl) I load 405's to 2050 fps, 430's to 1950 fps, and 450's to 1785 fps. (In a 45-90 I can do better than these by 100-150 fps) With these loads the verified pressure is within limits of the rifle, however I have run out of powder room. I may be wrong here but I don't think you can get as much powder in the 450 Marlin case as a 45-70 (and nowhere near a 45-90 capacity) and then you have a 20" bbl on a BLR (that will cost 50-100 fps when the loads get up this "hot". So, with my apples to oranges it doesn't seem like you could get "real", "useful" level 4 (as you put it) loads in the 450 Marlin. We had Grizzly load us up some 450 Marlin for a client going on a kodiak bear hunt. The most they could squeeze out was a 405 Kodiak bullet (expanding) and a matching load of 405 Punch bullet (solid) at 1900 fps. That was in a Marlin but I do not recall the barrel length. We did not chrono the loads to verify velocity. By the way - the bear thought it was just as good as level 4 45-70 loads, as he absorbed the bullet in the right ribs and spit it back out in front of his left shoulder, dropping on the spot quite dead. Shot distance 70 yds. Put a Punch in him for insurance as he faced away. Hit just above tail on spine and came out center of throat, luckily with minimal damage to the trophy. Shot distance here 20 yds. I'm curious too - does anyone think they can get more out of the 450 Marlin?

Pretty impressive ballistics on both rifles. To be expected though from an '86.
I would think the BLR .450 would be capable of at least 2200 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet; your points about barrel length and powder capacity noted.
Perhaps the 350 gr. bullet may allow for more powder, relatively speaking, to achieve ballistics that give the .375 H&H a run for its money. 350gr @ 2300+. This seems reasonable as Garret loads a 350 to 2200 in its 45/70 if memory serves correctly.

[Mike D.]

I have never used a 400 grain bullet in any of my .45 caliber Winchesters. 350 is the largest weight used, with 300s, and even 250s in some cases, being preferred. Danged "Buzzard Bullets" are needed in many areas hence the light bullets. Besides, 150 lb deer don't need to be hit by 400 grain bullets to fall dead. 250 Barnes TSX from my old .45-90 smashed into this buck at 2200 FPs after traveling 85 yds. Through and through, instantly DRN. This is the exit hole. No meat damaged, only useless ribs.

[CowboyTutt]

Besides, 150 lb deer don't need to be hit by 400 grain bullets to fall dead.

Uh, unless your name is Old Savage! Where you at Freddie?

Mike, is that whole cavity in the picture the exit wound? Holy Cow! Reminds me of the old addage about using heavy-er bullets at moderate velocity (2100-2200 fps) and how effective they can be.

Unless your planning on going to Africa or Alaska, I don't really see the point in hot-rodding the 450 Marlin and if you WERE going to Africa you might want to bring a different rifle/cartridge combo (the 458 Lott gets my vote).

-Tutt

[madman4570]

I do not shoot a 450 Marlin so I am merely offering a reference and comparison. In my 45-70 1886 (22" bbl) I load 405's to 2050 fps, 430's to 1950 fps, and 450's to 1785 fps. (In a 45-90 I can do better than these by 100-150 fps) With these loads the verified pressure is within limits of the rifle, however I have run out of powder room. I may be wrong here but I don't think you can get as much powder in the 450 Marlin case as a 45-70 (and nowhere near a 45-90 capacity) and then you have a 20" bbl on a BLR (that will cost 50-100 fps when the loads get up this "hot". So, with my apples to oranges it doesn't seem like you could get "real", "useful" level 4 (as you put it) loads in the 450 Marlin. We had Grizzly load us up some 450 Marlin for a client going on a kodiak bear hunt. The most they could squeeze out was a 405 Kodiak bullet (expanding) and a matching load of 405 Punch bullet (solid) at 1900 fps. That was in a Marlin but I do not recall the barrel length. We did not chrono the loads to verify velocity. By the way - the bear thought it was just as good as level 4 45-70 loads, as he absorbed the bullet in the right ribs and spit it back out in front of his left shoulder, dropping on the spot quite dead. Shot distance 70 yds. Put a Punch in him for insurance as he faced away. Hit just above tail on spine and came out center of throat, luckily with minimal damage to the trophy. Shot distance here 20 yds. I'm curious too - does anyone think they can get more out of the 450 Marlin?

Pretty impressive ballistics on both rifles. To be expected though from an '86.
I would think the BLR .450 would be capable of at least 2200 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet; your points about barrel length and powder capacity noted.
Perhaps the 350 gr. bullet may allow for more powder, relatively speaking, to achieve ballistics that give the .375 H&H a run for its money. 350gr @ 2300+. This seems reasonable as Garret loads a 350 to 2200 in its 45/70 if memory serves correctly.

The .450 is a great cartridge,however it will not even remotely touch a .375H&H Mag
Honestly, I don't think it can get to the 45/70 either which also isn't close to the 375H&H
In the 45/70 in my Ruger 1and also my H&R SB2 I shoot the Conley 400gr @2150 ammo(though the SB2 has a shorter barrel)so it doesnt hit 2150fps
Honestly,if you try with that .450 to try to get at that speed with that type bullet weight might have something bad happen.

When,I first got on here I was a power hungry dude, had to have every FPS,but then some guys on here helped me see the light that it isn't just FPS its many other things also.
If your hunting something that requires more than a 400gr@1900fps in your .450(I suggest going to a bigger gun)
Good Luck

p.s.---my 26" barreled Ruger#1 in 45/70 I love-------but it aint no 375H&H Mag

[6pt-sika]

p.s.---my 26" barreled Ruger#1 in 45/70 I love-------but it aint no 375H&H Mag

I agree the 450 or 45-70 isn't the equal of a 375 H&H MAG .

However if you have a factory barreled #1S in 45-70 I believe they only made them with 22" barrels .

[6pt-sika]

There was a rather LARGE peeing contest on MO a year or two ago about the virtues of the 45-70 and 444 for big beastie bears . And there were a number of souls there that firmly believed the 444 was far superior to the 45-70 and that both these cartridges were the better bear gun then the big belted mags .

To each his own !

But coming from someone that has spent alot of time messing with the 444 , 450 , 45-70 and the 375 H&H MAG . The 444 is not the equal of the 450 or 45-70 . Personally I believe the two big 45's are about the same thing . But none of the three are the equal to the 375 H&H .

I believe the thread over there was something to the effect of what you'd take for an alaskan brown bear or grizzly hunt . My answer was my 375 H&H or my 416 REM MAG . And a good many of the others said one had to be nuts to not think the 444 or 45-70 would not do the job . In a perfect world with favourable settings you would most likely be fine . But for something that I had to pay the money to hunt a grizz or brownie I want all the gun I can handle and something that will get the job done at 200 plus yards if we're on an open tundra or some such place .

The 45-70 loaded with the no longer made Nosler 300 Partition was a hammer . And the same bullet did wonders in one of the 450 Marlin's I had . The same can be said for the Swift 350 grain A Frame . And in the 444 the Swift 280 A Frame was a hammer . However none of those three will hold a light to the 375 H&H with the Nosler 300 Partition or the 416 REM MAG with the Nosler 400 grain Partition .

[madman4570]

p.s.---my 26" barreled Ruger#1 in 45/70 I love-------but it aint no 375H&H Mag

I agree the 450 or 45-70 isn't the equal of a 375 H&H MAG .

However if you have a factory barreled #1S in 45-70 I believe they only made them with 22" barrels .

6pt----------------
ya, I have one of those 22 inchers too which by the way is a great little shooter.
This Ruger#1 is the Model (1-S-C)
This one came with a 26" barrel

[madman4570]

6pt------------
Both your 375 H&H and that 416 REM MAG are real serious "get the job done guns" will take (anything)
How bad does that 416 REM MAG slam you when shooting it?(do you down load it?)

Reason I ask is I have had a 416 Weatherby for years and I have probably only shot the gun maybe 20 times.(no scope/open sights)
It kicks with plain factory loads to a point I actually worry about having a detached retina.(I mean it feels like about 3 of my stout .300 Win mag loads)
Probably should handload for it and mild it up some.(it just is extremely violent.(I have shot .458 WIN MAGs and .450 Nitros)but this .416 is just the hardest slam I have ever felt with a gun?
I actually get really bruised up when shooting it?
Kinda feels like if my brothers and I were drinking and the biggest/baddest one and I did the "let's see who can hit the others shoulder harder thing" Not fun! (he's 6'7" and weighs 270Lbs and has the attitude sometimes of a teased pitbull. (and he is always working out ) me,being 6'4" and 240Lbs I'm little bro to both

[6pt-sika]

6pt------------
Both your 375 H&H and that 416 REM MAG are real serious "get the job done guns" will take (anything)
How bad does that 416 REM MAG slam you when shooting it?(do you down load it?)

Reason I ask is I have had a 416 Weatherby for years and I have probably only shot the gun maybe 20 times.(no scope/open sights)
It kicks with plain factory loads to a point I actually worry about having a detached retina.(I mean it feels like about 3 of my stout .300 Win mag loads)
Probably should handload for it and mild it up some.(it just is extremely violent.(I have shot .458 WIN MAGs and .450 Nitros)but this .416 is just the hardest slam I have ever felt with a gun?
I actually get really bruised up when shooting it?
Kinda feels like if my brothers and I were drinking and the biggest/baddest one and I did the "let's see who can hit the others shoulder harder thing" Not fun! (he's 6'7" and weighs 270Lbs and has the attitude sometimes of a teased pitbull. (and he is always working out ) me,being 6'4" and 240Lbs I'm little bro to both

I've had a pair of 416 REM MAG's and 375's over the years . And no I don't load them down . The first were Interarms Mark X's both on Whitworth actions . And actually the first pair both started as 375's but I had on rebarreled to 416 REM MAG . Anyway they were both okay to shoot . About 2 years ago I decided to sell/trade the Interarms rifles and get a pair of #1H's I first got the 416 1H and it did very well on paper . It was no problem shooting offhand with iron sights at 100 yards and hitting football sized items . With a scope from the bench it will do about 1 1/2 " for 3 shots at 100 . I will say I usually use the 350 grain Speer bullet mostly .

After having the 375 and 416 1H's I got a deal on a very nice #1H in 458 WIN MAG that was made in the early 1980's . Also got cases . brass , bullets and dies with the gun . Anyway I loaded that one up with Hornady 500 grainers and Speer 400 grainers . I never did put a scope on this one , but shot open sights at 50 yards from the bench and it actually shot a couple 3 shot groups with opens that were a hair under an inch . And I could hit offhand with it okay at 50 yards . However this thing was the bruiser in the bunch !

I've worked up loads and reload for a friends 505 Gibbs and the 505 is a pussycat compared to that particular Ruger #1H and the full house 458 WIN MAG reloads using the 500 or 400 grainers .

So to answer your original question the 416 REM MAG is not all that bad . Of course you know you set it off when you touch the trigger . But without a doubt in a #1H the 458 WIN MAG loaded up will thrash you worse then the 416 .

[6pt-sika]

On a side note , my friend that has the 505 also has a 416 Rigby that I load for as well as a 375 . All of his are on CZ550 actions !

His 416 Rigby with full house 400 grain Nosler Partition loads has less recoil then my #1H with full house 350 grain loads .

However both the 375's I have had as well as both 416's and my friends 3 CZ's all had less recoil then that 1H in 458 WIN MAG that I had ! And had is the key word in that statement !

[Old Savage]

Well Cowboy, sorry I am late to the party. I was at the beach on the weekend listening to the drum circle. Cell went in the hot tub if you called. Now those were 300 gr TSXs at 1750 and I think for deer MikeD has the way to go with the 250 TSXs at much higher velocity. I suspect the 300s did not open well but three of them made a mess in there and he finally succumbed.

[madman4570]

On a side note , my friend that has the 505 also has a 416 Rigby that I load for as well as a 375 . All of his are on CZ550 actions !

His 416 Rigby with full house 400 grain Nosler Partition loads has less recoil then my #1H with full house 350 grain loads .

However both the 375's I have had as well as both 416's and my friends 3 CZ's all had less recoil then that 1H in 458 WIN MAG that I had ! And had is the key word in that statement !

Loads I have for that .416 are the 400 Gr. Barnes TSX at a velocity of 2730fps
and the 350 Barnes TSX going I believe right at 2900fps

Let my one brother shoot it last year and it actually gave him a real bad black eye.(he had no idea what was coming)
There is no hard push like I have felt on a .458 lott but it has this fast whack jolt I can't describe.
And it does it both with the 350gr and 400gr bullets.(lot worse than the .378 Weatherby's I have shot and their even pretty darn bad too.?????
Just not fun at all and not worth doing a lot and possibly going blind!


Honestly, I think the perfect gun choice for everything for me-----------.375H&H Mag

[crs]

What 86er said about the additional powder capacity of the .45-90 WCF + 1.
Grizzly Cartridge worked up some custom ammo for 86er and my Miroku/Winchester 1886 with full octagon 26" barrel when it wandered off to Africa with him a few years ago.
We had 300 grain Nosler protected points at 2600 fps, but backed them down to a mild 2200 to avoid over expansion on thin skinned game. We also had the Kodiak 450 grain FMJ flat point at 2150 fps. On a ballistics website I use, that 450 load from the 26 " barrel calculates out to 4600 + foot pounds of energy.
Recently, I had the pleasure of taking a bison with these 450 grain loads and can say that they do pack a serious punch; one of them swatted a running bison over like it was a rabbit hit by a load of number 6 shot from a 12 guage shotgun. In the video, it is apparent that there was some serious recoil, but the 9.5 pound weight of the barrel-heavy rifle controlled it with no barrel flip! No bruises or soreness from the steel buttplate either. IMHO, the Winchester 1886 .45-90 is a serious big bore hunting rifle and like all 1886 rifles, a pleasure to shoot.

[Mike D.]

Dang, you had some smoking loads there! 2600 is a bit much for me, especially in the lightweight 1886. The highest I reached with 300 Barnes Originals was 2475 FPS and the steel shotgun butt plate tore up my shoulder to the extent that it bled some. A rifle that has a 22' barrel and weighs just a shade over 8 lbs fully loaded will wake you up when fired from a bench with heavy loads. I pared my 250 grain loads down to a shade under 2300 which is easy on both me and the 105 yr old 1886. If I did take the old girl to Africa, though, I do believe that some of your heavier bullets would be required.

[crs]

MikeD,
So as not to mislead you, I must confess that I hunt with these heavy loads only when called for or just for the fun of it. All pre hunt practice and hunting shooting is done offhand while standing. When needed, a set of sticks can be used- still while standing. I just let the rifle push my 180 pounds around and back while the gun soaks up the recoil.
I have shot 86er's 86 EL with 405 grainers at 2000+ and it seems to have a more sharp "kick" than does my 86 with the somewhat faster 450 grain loads. His 405 loads are no problem in my heavier 86; can you believe that I actually terminated a Blackbuck with one of those?

When shooting heavy loads from a bench rest, we use the Lead Sled with one shot bag and though it does move around some, it takes the heavy recoil, not me. Two shot bags reduces the rest walking about, but some folks say that is hard on the buttstock.

[longshotz]

Wasn't saying that a .375 was inferior to a .450 or 45/70 +P load. Only that a .375 300 gr. bullet at 2400 or 2500 FPS isn't that far off a 350 gr. 45 cal bullet at 2200-2300 in a +P loading.
No one will dispute the superiority of the .375 H&H as a proven cartridge; I shot one for several years here in BC as my go to Mooser.
In any case good discussion here; to bad it got sidetracked into .416 and .505 stuff.

[6pt-sika]

In any case good discussion here; to bad it got sidetracked into .416 and .505 stuff.

I don't really think it got side tracked !

Myself and another fellow had a couple posts about the 416 etc I saw no harm no foul !

[CowboyTutt]

I would submit that the reason the 416 Rem kicks so hard as compared to the 416 Rigby or 505 Gibbs is related in some way to case capacity, pressure and how slow a powder you can use. The huge cases of the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs allow the use of very slow burning powders that create more of a "push" then a hard "snap".

I have to say I'm real partial to my 375 H&H AI on my CZ action (which has almost no comparison for strength) that allows me to shoot a 350 grain BT bullet at 2500 fps that has a BC in the seven hundreds and stays supersonic past 1500 yards at sea level. A very hard combination to beat for flat trajectory and incredible terminal performance even at very long range (better than all of the 458 bullets we are discussing in fact). I'm able to seat the bullet WAY out because of the wonderful design of the CZ action and extra long chamber which allows a lot more case capacity. You need a copy of Quickload on your computer to do this right. The black in the picture is my cat who just HAD to get involved!



And here's a pic with a 350 Woodleigh RN bullet seated far out beyond the crimp as compared to a 358 Win and 454 Casull.



We now return to our regularly scheduled programing. -Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Now those were 300 gr TSXs at 1750 and I think for deer MikeD has the way to go with the 250 TSXs at much higher velocity. I suspect the 300s did not open well but three of them made a mess in there and he finally succumbed.

-Old Savage

Yes, I suspect all of that is true. C'mon Freddy. Whats a retina detachment compared to a quick clean kill. Suck it up, Buddy! -Tutt

[6pt-sika]

I would submit that the reason the 416 Rem kicks so hard as compared to the 416 Rigby or 505 Gibbs is related in some way to case capacity, pressure and how slow a powder you can use. The huge cases of the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs allow the use of very slow burning powders that create more of a "push" then a hard "snap".

I don't think the 416 REM MAG or the 416 Rigby kick that hard !

I DO however think in a Ruger #1H that the 458 WIN MAG is punishing from the bench and offhand .

MM45-70 however said his 416 Weatherby did . If one looks at the proposed velocities in a load manual you will see that the Weatherby supposedly gets about 200 FPS more then the REM and Rigby . Plus the Weatherby stock isn't the most fun to shoot with a real thumper either or atleast not for me .

The recoil in the 505 with my handloads can kinda be looked at in the same way one would look at equal displacement motors in a Drag car versus a diesel dump truck . WHile lets say the 460 Weatherby is the drag car and it gets right to you real quick the 505 is more like a dump truck with a powerfull diesel motor that doesn't pop you coming out of the hole but you know it's going to move you regardless of what you do !

[CowboyTutt]

I DO however think in a Ruger #1H that the 458 WIN MAG is punishing from the bench and offhand .

If you look at it carefully, the Ruger #1 stock leaves something to be desired in the recoil department. I was thinking of getting one in 460 S&W until I looked at the stock profile and cheek weld. Stock design has a lot to do with what we are talking about here. -Tutt

[Old Savage]

Actually. the Ruger #1 is not bad at all to shoot with at least to the 458 - beyond that I don't know. Maybe Cowboy, you should try it in the 243 where I find it downright pleasant.

[86er]

Still curious about the 450 Marlin keeping up with the 45-70, I experimented a little last night. First, I found the heaviest/shortest bullet so I could maximize case capacity. Then I used the next lower weight that was the shortest I had for that size. Lastly, I picked the lightest/shortest bullet I had. In each case the bullet ended up being a hardcast in 405 grain, 350 grain and 300 grain respectively - however they actually weight on average 402, 354 and 298 grains. Next, using a load data program I punched in and searched for powder that would give the most velocity while keeping at 55K psi. Then, I seated the bullets out too much and incrementally seated them deeper until the lever would close. Both of these rifles are Guide Guns and neither are mine, so I had a chunk of change on the line if something went wrong. Kids - don't try this at home! Using a rifle cradle ( a plastic red one that holds a weight bag) we pulled the trigger remotely. The chrono was set 5 feet from the muzzle (I put it a little close because pulling the trigger remotely sometimes moved the gun a bit. Here are the results of the top loads for each weight:
45-70 405 gr = 2056 fps, 45-70 350 gr =2268 fps, 45-70 300 gr = 2361 fps (3 shot average)
450 M 405 gr = 1970 fps, 450 M 350 gr = 2118 fps, 450 M 300 gr = 2286 fps.

Note: 1) these are way over any max load published 2) Both of the calibers with 300 gr bullet caused a hard time opening the lever 3) 450 M had flattened primers, almost inwardly concave 4) these were all compressed loads.

Maybe with a 22" barrel we could get another 100 fps, maybe with an even longer barrel we could get more. My Winchester 1886 22" handles 405's up to 2100 fps with no problems - easy ejection, no case signatures from pressure, good accuracy and consistency., although the top load I settled on for a combination of reasons is 2006 fps average. For what I could do with the components on hand I at least convinced myself once and for all that 450 M cannot safely match the ability of the 45-70 with top end loads.

[madman4570]

In any case good discussion here; to bad it got sidetracked into .416 and .505 stuff.

I don't really think it got side tracked !

Myself and another fellow had a couple posts about the 416 etc I saw no harm no foul !

+1

Sorry longshotz about that, I was the other guy that got a tad OT with the recoil and probably I started it.
Many times things will get a little off topic,but that is were a lot of times other things usually have at least a discussion relationship like in this case (Recoil)
These guys know a lot about these bigger guns(which mine mostly sits in the safe)
One thing about this site,the guys on here are always willing to share their knowledge which I sure can use all the good info I can get.
Again, like 6pt said---------no harm no foul" Sorry! See ya!

[madman4570]

In any case good discussion here; to bad it got sidetracked into .416 and .505 stuff.

I don't really think it got side tracked !

Myself and another fellow had a couple posts about the 416 etc I saw no harm no foul !

+1

Sorry longshotz about that, I was the other guy that got a tad OT with the recoil and ya looking at it I started it.
Many times things will get a little off topic,but that is where a lot of times other things usually have at least a discussion relationship like in this case (Energy/Recoil etc.)
These guys know a lot about these bigger guns(and little ones)which my big one mostly sits in the safe.
One thing about this site,the guys on here are always willing to share their knowledge which I sure can use all the good info I can get.
Again, like 6pt said---------no harm no foul" Sorry! See ya!

[Old Savage]

I think the point of the 450 Marlin was a hotter loaded factory round that would not chamber in a 45-70.

[Old Savage]

I think the point of the 450 Marlin was a hotter loaded factory round that would not chamber in a 45-70.

[longshotz]

Still curious about the 450 Marlin keeping up with the 45-70, I experimented a little last night. First, I found the heaviest/shortest bullet so I could maximize case capacity. Then I used the next lower weight that was the shortest I had for that size. Lastly, I picked the lightest/shortest bullet I had. In each case the bullet ended up being a hardcast in 405 grain, 350 grain and 300 grain respectively - however they actually weight on average 402, 354 and 298 grains. Next, using a load data program I punched in and searched for powder that would give the most velocity while keeping at 55K psi. Then, I seated the bullets out too much and incrementally seated them deeper until the lever would close. Both of these rifles are Guide Guns and neither are mine, so I had a chunk of change on the line if something went wrong. Kids - don't try this at home! Using a rifle cradle ( a plastic red one that holds a weight bag) we pulled the trigger remotely. The chrono was set 5 feet from the muzzle (I put it a little close because pulling the trigger remotely sometimes moved the gun a bit. Here are the results of the top loads for each weight:
45-70 405 gr = 2056 fps, 45-70 350 gr =2268 fps, 45-70 300 gr = 2361 fps (3 shot average)
450 M 405 gr = 1970 fps, 450 M 350 gr = 2118 fps, 450 M 300 gr = 2286 fps.

Note: 1) these are way over any max load published 2) Both of the calibers with 300 gr bullet caused a hard time opening the lever 3) 450 M had flattened primers, almost inwardly concave 4) these were all compressed loads.

Maybe with a 22" barrel we could get another 100 fps, maybe with an even longer barrel we could get more. My Winchester 1886 22" handles 405's up to 2100 fps with no problems - easy ejection, no case signatures from pressure, good accuracy and consistency., although the top load I settled on for a combination of reasons is 2006 fps average. For what I could do with the components on hand I at least convinced myself once and for all that 450 M cannot safely match the ability of the 45-70 with top end loads.

Good on you for the data.
This would seem to indicate that the case capacity of the .450M is less than the 45/70. IE less case volume produces pressures out of proportion to FPS gained; entering the field of diminishing returns it would seem. If I read your data correctly, it seems the Marlin is already "maxed out" right from the factory; or nearly so relative to 45/70 +P stuff. Ergo the BLR in .450 Marlin is unlikely to generate anything significantly more than a 45/70 +P in a modern '86.
Kinda' prompts the question of what kind of potential the 45/70 would have if chambered in a BLR?

[longshotz]

In any case good discussion here; to bad it got sidetracked into .416 and .505 stuff.

I don't really think it got side tracked !

Myself and another fellow had a couple posts about the 416 etc I saw no harm no foul !

+1

Sorry longshotz about that, I was the other guy that got a tad OT with the recoil and ya looking at it I started it.
Many times things will get a little off topic,but that is where a lot of times other things usually have at least a discussion relationship like in this case (Energy/Recoil etc.)
These guys know a lot about these bigger guns(and little ones)which my big one mostly sits in the safe.
One thing about this site,the guys on here are always willing to share their knowledge which I sure can use all the good info I can get.
Again, like 6pt said---------no harm no foul" Sorry! See ya!

None taken or perceived.