Really OT: How to dispose of underground fuel tanks.

[kaschi]

I'm thinking some of you guys might have some ideas here, so here's what gives.

There is a cinder block building 54' x 25' on my property with three underground fuel tanks (500 and 1000 gallon) buried within 10 feet of the length of one of the long walls. These have been there since the fuel crisis back in 1973 or 1974 and are now empty. The building is presently accessible from two large sliding doors located at both ends. I'd like to block in those two door openings and install 3 or possibly even 4 (if there is space) 9' overhead garage doors in the long wall where the tanks are buried.

The reason I want the tanks out of there is that I'd like to pour a concrete slab in front of the new "garage" and think that if they are not removed before doing so, there may be trouble down the road in the form of rusting out tanks causing other issues and more problems.

So, what are some ways of disposing of these tanks? I'm half afraid to ask any govt authority for fear that they'll make the whole ordeal a super expensive, unpleasant one at the least.....

Thanks for your time and input and hope to hear some ideas.

P.S. In case you're wondering: the reason the garage doors cannot be installed along the other side of the building is because there is a steep bank there which won't allow it to work. The side where the tanks are located also face my house.

[Tycer]

You can excavate around them and float them by filling the excavation with water or, easier, fill them with sand and build on top of them.

[harry]

If you can get to them I would fill them with sand, if you dig them up you will always have problems with the driveway cracking from the ground settling.
Harry

[pwl44m]

R U asking how to do it literaly or how to do it without getting caught. Was this a Gas Station or were the Tanks for Ag. Makes a differance as far as rules go. It is a really lengthy and "Costly" project to do it Uncle Sams way if they have been leaking. R they Steel tanks- SS steel tanks-or Poly tanks. The likelyhood of SS & Poly leaking r almost nil. Plain steel tanks r another thing. How long has it been since they have had fuel in themm ?

[.45colt]

Do they have removable caps that You can look down inside?

[stretch]

You don't want to involve the government here without
checking out the rules VERY carefully. If they decide that
you have a contaminated site, you're in for a painful, - and
maybe VERY expensive experience.

pwl44m has some good advice. Figure out what they were used for,
by whom and how long ago. Diesel is better than gas. Water is best
of all!! Then do some quiet research. Good Luck!!

-Stretch

[vancelw]

USTs are highly regulated by state and Federal codes. (EPA, your state Environmental Quality, and area fire codes)
If you don't remove or abandon them in place correctly, it can come back to bite you indefinitely.
The International Fire Code 3404.2.13.1.4 tells you how to abandon them in place.(basically remove the contents, remove and cap/plug all lines, fill with inert material.)
If you dig it up you have to figure out what to do with it.
if you abandon it in place you have to keep records for infinity and beyond.

It's too late to "sneak past the graveyard" once you posted this query online. Even if you deleted your post, it is already cached by a bot.

[Tycer]

You never know. You might just pop the tops and find the previous owner already filled them with sand.

[Chas.]

If you dig it up you have to figure out what to do with it.

and the dirt all around it if it's ever leaked. And the only way to prove/disprove that is analysis.

[Blaine]

A red hot tatter, fer sure.....The EPA would have a field day with this one....I'm glad they are not mine.

[Cliff]

They can really haunt you depending on where you are. In Florida they have to dig them out, test drill bore holes down under them to check for leakage, if they leaked you are responsible for removing contaminated soil and replacing it. They also will want to inspect them before any work is done. Another thought would be dig them out, paint them all colors of the spectrum, stick wierd items to the outside, maybe stand them on end and call it a piece of art then they may be protected. One resident wanted to put a swimming pool in his back yard when the pool contractors' people went to dig they found his house had been built on top of a land fill. He was responsible for removing all the junk in the former landfill, about the size of a football field. He finally decided to refill the hole and have a nice back yard. Be careful where you ask for information, the EPA, and other regulatory agencies really can be a pain. It goes on forever. Best of luck to you and hope you find an easy solution. ATB

[adirondakjack]

Federal and state rules make it tough.

If at all possible, nice filtered in sand is the best way. OF course they never leaked. Unless a leak has been documented, they never leaked......

True story. A local fellow has a nice small home along a highway. He's boxed in by a steep rocky hill in back and on one side, but on the other side is about a 36X60 cinderblock building that used to be a gas station, but not in many years, complete with old tanks.... The previous owner (smartly) "forgot" to pay taxes long enough that the TOWN had it listed forever on their defaault roles.

So this feller approahed the town, asking about buying the property. He said he wanted to demolish the building and just make a lawn out of it. The town thought "good deal" and they of course had to take ownersship of the tax-delinquent property, and did so so they could sell it.

So now this feller says "I decided I don't want it after all, but ya know, the abandoned tanks might be a hazard to my well."
the TOWN, as new owners, got stuck with a bill for almost $100,000 to dig out the tanks and remove oodles of soil (which necessitated removing the old building as well) and replace it all. Of course the neighbor put in some nice grass seed and mows the 100X80 foot property the town owns and still can't sell (too small to build on)......

[vancelw]

True story. A local fellow has a nice small home along a highway. He's boxed in by a steep rocky hill in back and on one side, but on the other side is about a 36X60 cinderblock building that used to be a gas station, but not in many years, complete with old tanks.... The previous owner (smartly) "forgot" to pay taxes long enough that the TOWN had it listed forever on their defaault roles.

the TOWN, as new owners, got stuck with a bill for almost $100,000 to dig out the tanks and remove oodles of soil (which necessitated removing the old building as well) and replace it all. Of course the neighbor put in some nice grass seed and mows the 100X80 foot property the town owns and still can't sell (too small to build on)......

The town should have paid, since they didn't do their jobs. Their job was to enforce the codes. If they had fined the previous owner each and every day until he removed the leaking tank, the the taxpayers wouldn't have been stuck with it. The taxpayers paid for the incompetence (or laziness) of the city workers.

Of course, the citizens could have involved themselves in government and voted out those who weren't doing their jobs- so maybe it's fitting that the taxpayers were saddled with the expense.

[Chas.]

OF course they never leaked. Unless a leak has been documented, they never leaked....

Don't work that way. You have to document that they haven't leaked. And you do that with fuel purchase/sales records. Whenever a gas station is sold, the fuel records are sometimes worth as much as the station itself.

[.45colt]

This sounds like a bunch of Bull... . to Me and it is all hypothetical............. but if I were to find this on a part of my property I would check the contents, cut large holes in the top and if far enough away from the building I would build large fires in them burn the lefover contents, and then shoot a bunch of bullets thru the bottom and fill with sand. If I was Hobie I would delete this thread.

[adirondakjack]

OF course they never leaked. Unless a leak has been documented, they never leaked....

Don't work that way. You have to document that they haven't leaked. And you do that with fuel purchase/sales records. Whenever a gas station is sold, the fuel records are sometimes worth as much as the station itself.

That's all well and good if the records are recent enough. When ya have a property that was vacant before EPA was a gleam in the eye of whoever thought of it, or perhaps used in the interim as a rental property where some guy worked on Stock Cars (like the one I posted about), it ain't that easy.

[Sixgun]

This sounds like a bunch of Bull... . to Me and it is all hypothetical............. but if I were to find this on a part of my property I would check the contents, cut large holes in the top and if far enough away from the building I would build large fires in them burn the lefover contents, and then shoot a bunch of bullets thru the bottom and fill with sand. If I was Hobie I would delete this thread.

Don't worry 'bout it-I would do the same. Its kinda like shooting the neighbor's cat--what do they call it s.s.s.or somethin' like that

[AJMD429]

Maybe if you dropped a match in them, they'd "remove" themselves...

Seriously, I'd be careful of fumes+oxygen=kaboom!

If it weren't for the bureaucrats, the most practical, most environmentally-friendly, most affordable, and most morally responsible method would likely be one and the same, but get the government involved, and they'll require whatever would be the worst approach as ranked in any of those areas.

[BigSky56]

Use pea gravel for back filling it pours and fills voids better than sand and it can be put in place by a cement truck flows just like cement or you can get a cement trailer for you PU truck. It compacts to 95% when poured. danny

[stretch]

Another thought: Do some (quiet!) research on property and tax records.
Was there ever a filling station there? Are the tanks documented
anywhere in property records? Did a farmer just get some tanks
put in for his own use? If there's no documentation, then they
are officially not there. If they ain't there, ya can't fill 'em with sand
or otherwise dispose of 'em, now can ya?

But be careful!

-Stretch

[cas]

I looked into this a little bit for someone I know who had a gas tank in their driveway. One bit of advice given by someone in the business was, fill it with fuel oil. Maybe not "full" but a couple hundred gallons. Their point was the fuel oil would take care of any residual gasoline in the tank. (either mix/dilute it or mask it.) And now it was just a home heating oil tank and covered by a different set of rules. (this may vary for different locations)


One thing I saw years ago on television (maybe This Old House?) for a home heating oil tank, they pumped out what they could, added dry ice to push out any fuel fumes and oxygen and then cut a big hole in the top. I think they then cleaned out anything else that was in there and it was filled with expanding foam, then abandoned in place. This of course was done by a company specializing in that.

[kaschi]

Wow, lots of responses! Thanks. The tanks are on the family farm and were put there by an uncle who used them for ag purposes. There has not been fuel in them since the late 80's and they are empty.

The idea about filling them with pea sized gravel or sand sounds like the best ways to fill them. I really don't want to dig them up and fill the holes with bank shale but figured it would be the only way to do it since the ground in that location would be driven on. A cement slab there isn't really necessary and plain old shale would work just as well I suppose. At least with shale, cracks could not appear which would be the case as someone mentioned earlier if cement were indeed used.

Wonder how much it would cost to fill a tank with gravel or sand?

[adirondakjack]

Wow, lots of responses! Thanks. The tanks are on the family farm and were put there by an uncle who used them for ag purposes. There has not been fuel in them since the late 80's and they are empty.

The idea about filling them with pea sized gravel or sand sounds like the best ways to fill them. I really don't want to dig them up and fill the holes with bank shale but figured it would be the only way to do it since the ground in that location would be driven on. A cement slab there isn't really necessary and plain old shale would work just as well I suppose. At least with shale, cracks could not appear which would be the case as someone mentioned earlier if cement were indeed used.

Wonder how much it would cost to fill a tank with gravel or sand?

If the tanks are indeed empty, and you can free them from fumes and cut the tops open some, it's not a real big job to fill em. Tedious work if ya don't get em opened up much....

[Tycer]

If the tanks are indeed empty, and you can free them from fumes and cut the tops open some, it's not a real big job to fill em. Tedious work if ya don't get em opened up much....

Fill them with water to drive out the fumes and cut them open, the sand will displace the water.

[BigSky56]

When dealing with the gov its always better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I have a 275 gal tank and its approx 4x4x2 you can get a approx volume from that. Ag tanks had exemptions from the standards and still do, asking gov types can open a can of worms like the EPA showing up in hazmat clothes. danny

[Noah Zark]

You can excavate around them and float them by filling the excavation with water . . .

500 and 1000 gal tanks are fairly small. Just use the backhoe you used to dig them up, to lift them out. $200 worth of yellow nylon or poly slings from Tractor Supply will do the job for rigging to the backhoe bucket.

Noah

[Dirty Dan]

I'd dig em up and sell em at the salvage yard. Beer or bullet money. Fillthe hole with whatever is cheapest, even rent a compactor and tamp it in real good- no problems.

[kaschi]

Dirty Dan: I'm pretty sure junk yards won't buy tanks, at least that's what someone once told me. If they would, the tanks will have found a new home! It is definitely the easiest and least complicated solution.