When were Winchester Levers made in .45lc

[jfg_4]

When were the lever guns offered in .45lc? Wasn't the round offered in 1873? Were the '73s ever offered in .45? How about the 92s?

John

[Terry Murbach]

NEVER .

[Mike D.]

Like Terry said, NO Winchesters were ever offered in Colt's .45 revolver round. I can't think of any manufacturer who historically offered that caliber in any long guns. It's product of late 20th Century manufacturing.

[M. M. Wright]

Never.

The original cartridge for the 73 was 44WCF (44-40). No 92s in .45 Colt either.

The .45 Colt is a straight walled case that is quite thick and does not seal the chamber off well, with any load but especially with black powder. The 73 is easy to dismantle and clean but why not just use the very thin 44-40 that seals the chamber and does not fill the action with fouling?
I shoot mostly ffg in my 73s and SAAs and after hundreds of rounds the 73 still has the white grease in the action when I remove the side plates.

The other calibers, 38-40, 32-20 are also tapered cases with thin walls at the mouth to seal the chamber well. Winchester knew what they were doing.

[jfg_4]

Thanks all... that was what I was thinking... had a couple of gun store fellas try to tell me different. I got my '92 replica and a SAA in 44-40. I really want a mares leg in 44-40 but those are $$$$

[Don McDowell]

Neither Winchester, nor Marlin or anybody else, chamber a rifle in 45 colt until the mid 1980's and the start of the "Cowboy" action shooting craze.
The thing that kept a rifle from being chambered in 45 colt back in the day was the ultra small rim. There was not enough rim on the pre ww2 cases for an extractor to reliably get ahold of and extract the case.

[Malamute]

I believe the thick shell walls in 45 Colt are a fairly recent innovation. The older shells I have are noticably thinner, and seemd to be when I first was loading 45 Colt only 25 or 30 years ago, at least the older brass I had was. I don't think it was the wall thickness that was a determining factor when the earlier Winchester models were made. The older cases had a very narrow rim. Newer brass has a groove cut in the case ahead of the rim, older shells do not, not to mention the earliest military cases were folded head, inside primed, the cases were formed like rimfire brass. Comparing older 44 WCF shells to older 45 Colt shells, and them to newer cases, the older 44 WCF brass had about as much effective rim as newer 45 Colt brass does, and the older 45 Colt shells next to nothing as far as a rim for an extractor to grab. It wasnt much of an issue in a revolver, especially a single action, all the rim had to do was keep the shell from falling into the chamber when fired. The narow rim was a problem when used in double action guns with miltiple ejection, and still is to a degree with some with looser chambers. I havent miked the rims on the older shells I have, but wouldnt be surprised if the older brass has a smaller rim OD than the newest versions.

[J Miller]

jfg_4,

As the others have said, no Winchester or other brand of rifle was ever chambered for the .45 Colt until 1985. Winchester offered their 94AE Trapper in .45 Colt for the first time that year.

As for rifle makers avoiding the .45 Colt because of the tiny rim and case thickness, that is all legend.
I've shot the balloon head cases with smokeless and black powder in three different designs of lever guns (Win 94AE, Marlin 1894 and Rossi 92) and they all fed, fired, extracted and ejected them just fine.

Since 1985, Winchester, Marlin, Uberti, Rossi, Miroku, and I'm sure others have chambered rifles of every original design in the .45 Colt. I'm positive many many of them have been fed balloon head cases with out a hitch.

The real reason is that before SAAMI, gun manufacturing companies could patent their cartridges. Colt did so with the .45 Colt round. Until after the turn of the century nobody else could chamber that round in their guns without getting jumped on by Colt's legal department.
If you will notice, Remington, Merwin Hulbert, nor others ever chambered their guns for the .45 Colt. If it was just the tiny rim and no other reason, they would have done so.



Joe

[Don McDowell]

There is no problem with the 45 colt cases "sealing" the chamber unless you're involved in the dressup Cowboy squib shooters game. Real 45 colt loads either smokeless or black seal the chambers just fine.

Joe I would question your patent theory as Marlin in particular was always stealing Winchesters cartridges only they called them by the caliber and the powder charge ie 44-40 in place of 44 wcf.
Also Colt produced the lightning rifle for some time and a levergun for a shorter period and neither of those rifles were chambered in 45 colt, and Colt certainly held the patent rights to both guns and cartridge.
The prewar cases were quite a bit larger in diameter than what we have today, and with the exception of Winchester and Marlins 30-30 and 32 special rifles no one by the time the depression was over much gave a whip about a new levergun either on the production nor consumer side of things, until about the time of the bicentennial and then nostalgia started kicking in...

[Malamute]

Joe, do your ballon head cases have the groove cut in the shell body ahead of the rim? Balloon head cases are the next step below the curent solid head, and aren't the same as folder head like the military used, and the older commercial rounds (long before they quit making balloon head cases)had very small rims, tho commercial makers woudnt be making guns based just on one particlar type of military case.


Don, I've had sooty cases in my 45 cal Miroku 92 when using 22 grs 2400 w/ the speer 225 gr Jacketed bullet. Much dirtier cases than I get with most loads I shoot in the 44 Browning, other than light 44 spl loads in it.

[rbertalotto]

Answer is right here on this web site:

www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[J Miller]

Don,

I'll try to find the info I have on the patents.

OK, I've not yet been able to find it and I know positively I saved it ..... somewhere.
I shall endeavor to find it. Until then you can just believe I'm full of pelosi and let it go at that.

Joe, do your ballon head cases have the groove cut in the shell body ahead of the rim? Balloon head cases are the next step below the curent solid head, and aren't the same as folder head like the military used, and the older commercial rounds (long before they quit making balloon head cases)had very small rims, tho commercial makers woudnt be making guns based just on one particlar type of military case.


Don, I've had sooty cases in my 45 cal Miroku 92 when using 22 grs 2400 w/ the speer 225 gr Jacketed bullet. Much dirtier cases than I get with most loads I shoot in the 44 Browning, other than light 44 spl loads in it.

Malamute,
Nope, all my balloon head cases are devoid of the grove. And I have some examples of modern solid head cases without them too.

If you look at the .45 Colt cases from the beginning to now you'll see a big variation of case rims. From the diameters to the shape of the rims. Some of them have rounded edges front and back to perfectly square front and back to square on the back and beveled on the front. And many variations of same. But for the most part even the ancient copper inside primed cases have rims that are pretty close, not exact but pretty close, to the same size as we've had since the solid head cases came into being.
How do I know this? Well, I have hundreds of balloon head cases and thousands of solid head cases and have measured quite a few of them.
The ones that caused me the most trouble in my Rossi 92 was the rounded rim W.R.A. Co. cases. The UMC, REM-UMC, PETERS and later WRA cases were much better.
Here's a drawing of the case head types:

CaseHeadTypes.JPG

Also, 2400 needs pressure to burn cleanly. If you put a 250gr bullet inplace of that 225gr bullet you'll notice a difference of cleanliness right off. A tight neck tension and good firm crimp help too.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Malamute the only "sooty" case problems I've had in the 45 was with trailboss, and that is some dirty sxxt to shoot.

Joe I believe that the big body of the 45 and the sloped thin rounded edge rim of the 45's of old, as made by UMC and WRA were the biggest culprit in no rifle chamberings in the first few years of the Colts life, followed by the fast retreat from and demand for more levergun chamberings post 1900. And by the time the depression was done, and folks could buy stuff it was bolt or autoloader all the way...

[J Miller]

Don,

I'm sure you're right about the rims. I do know the W.R.A. Co. ones are particularly bad about letting the extractor slip off when the chamber is filthy with black powder residue. The REM-UMC ones not much of problem.

I've got a bunch of books, articles I've printed off the net, and magazines that I've read over the last 10 years. "If" I can find the article I referred to about the patents I'll post it. I know I read it, I just have to find it.

What I'd like to do is get a Uberti 1873 and do some serious experimenting with the balloon head cases I have. That would be fun.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe, that would be an interesting experiment.
Last time I was at the Buffalo Bill museum was 20 someodd years ago, but they had in the tiny bit of the Winchester collection they had out at the time a 73 winchester prototype gun in caliber 45.....
Going to be back there in a couple of weeks, am hoping that gun is still on display.

[J Miller]

Joe, that would be an interesting experiment.
Last time I was at the Buffalo Bill museum was 20 someodd years ago, but they had in the tiny bit of the Winchester collection they had out at the time a 73 winchester prototype gun in caliber 45.....
Going to be back there in a couple of weeks, am hoping that gun is still on display.

Don,

I'd be interested in any pics or info you can get on that one.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe I hope it's being displayed still, but won't know much about that for a couple of weeks.

[Griff]

Joe,

Are you sure about Remington never chambering their 1875 & 1890 revolvers in .45Colt? I can't say for certain, but I was pretty sure they were.

And USRA under license from Winchester was the first to chamber their mdl 94AE with the .45Colt in 1985. Uberti followed suit in 1986 and Rossi was a few years later... '88 or '89.

Uberti announced their 1873 clone as being chambered in .45Colt in 1985, but the first five rifles imported to the US were built in early 1986 (I know this because I have one of those 5). I've been told (from a fairly reliable source), that Uberti had been chambering it in the 1873 for distribution in Europe for a couple years prior to this.

[J Miller]

Griff,

"Pretty sure, but not positive". This is from the same thing I read that talked about Colt having the patent on the cartridge. You know that thing I remember reading, but can't remember what I read it in. That thing?

As for USRAC being the first to chamber their 94AE in .45 Colt in 85, that I am sure. The Ubertis were (just like now) priced so far out of my financial league I didn't pay any attention to them then. And the Rossis were almost never seen so no knowledge of them either. I know that Marlin brought out the 1894 in .45 Colt around 1990. Not sure of the exact year though.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe I recall that in 88/9 I was looking high and low for one of the new 94 Marlins in 32wcf, and while I kept coming up short on that, there seemed to be a 45 colt about everywhere I went.

[J Miller]

Joe I recall that in 88/9 I was looking high and low for one of the new 94 Marlins in 32wcf, and while I kept coming up short on that, there seemed to be a 45 colt about everywhere I went.

Don,
That's probably closer to right. I got my Win 94 in 86 and bought the first Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt in 90. Hadn't seen any or heard of them till then. Strangely enough this was before the internet. Things moved slower then.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe sometimes I think the world was a better place before the internet...

[J Miller]

Joe sometimes I think the world was a better place before the internet...

I agree 100%, with one exception. I do like emails I never was a good letter writer.

Joe

[Don McDowell]

[COSteve]

Joe sometimes I think the world was a better place before the internet...

I agree 100%, with one exception. I do like emails I never was a good letter writer. Joe

While I can sympathize with that, remember that the internet made sites like this possible. There is no way we all could have connected, or even known that we each existed, without the internet.

[Don McDowell]

[quote="COSteve While I can sympathize with that, remember that the internet made sites like this possible. There is no way we all could have connected, or even known that we each existed, without the internet.[/quote]
My point exactly.