Help me please......1873 Uberti 45 colt a bad shooter

[hightime]

It's a couple months old and has never shot well. Maybe it's my fault though. I didn't shoot it much , before I put on a Lyman tang Peep. It needed a brass shim under the left edge to stand vert., and a taller front bead sight to clear the top of the factory buckhorns. I feel bad about this, but I didn't have a brass punch and put some dents on the side of the front sight as I beat it on. Could I have bent the barrel? As I sighted it in, I had to tap the front sight visably to the right of center and adjust both rear sights to the left of center. Some guys say it's me or that trigger pull is to great. That might be partly true , but I don't think so. I shot sixty yards yesterday with one of those Lead sleds. I shot twenty rounds. Ten Remington 230 grain rn factory loads 45 Colt and ten with my 250 grain rnfp 9 gr Unique. Both loads shot about the same. On target , but quite scattered, with a spred of ten inches. I shot with great care to not pull off target. With any one of my other thrirty guns, I would have drilled the bullseye, but not this time. The side of my shells after firing has a smoke stain stripe on all of them. Do I have a bad chamber? I looked hard and can't see anything, but I didn't take the bolt out, so it's hard to tell. The bore is clean and new looking. I just can't figure it out. I sent in back and they sent me some targets with a couple shots in each one and those were grouped good. They said they adjusted my sights and the gun shot to Uberti standards. That there's nothing wrong. I am not happy at all. Please help!!!!!!!!!!

Owen

DSC03283.JPG

[Old Savage]

My Rossi 92 did that with bullets in the .451/452 range but shot well with bullet a couple of thousands larger.

[FWiedner]

Sights don't make big groups. You said you had the thing in a lead-sled. If your weren't moving it around it probably isn't the shooter. You said it's a new gun. I'd assume it's in good shape, nonetheless, with groups like that I'd inspect the muzzle/crown.

Sounds like you might have an over-sized bore. Did you slug it before you started creating loads?

An itty-bitty bullet flying down a great big pipe is not an ideal formula for accuracy.

[RIHMFIRE]

maybe you should slug the bore and get a bullet that is a couple thou over like
OS said....also the triggers on the Ubertis are awful...very heavy...
both of my 73s need trigger work.

[kimwcook]

Hightime, I suggest slugging your bore first so you can make sure you're using the right size slugs. A chamber cast may be warranted as well. I also suggest you may have some leading, but you say the piece hasn't been shot that much, but it still could be. Once leading starts it can progress rather rapidly to the point of destroying any hope of accuracy. I'm not aware of any common Uberti accuracy issues, ie..bad barrels, chambers, etc... but, you could just have a lemon. Even if you bent the barrel it should group somewhere. Not spread the shots all over the place. Muzzle crown could be a factor, but that's usually an easy appraisal.

[w30wcf]

hightime,
That is one beautiful rifle.

Regarding the soot on your cases..... 45 Colt chambers are a bit generous and can be as much as .015" over the unfired case dimension so, therefore, the soot on your cases is normal.

Regarding the large group, as the others have indicated, it would be a good idea to slug your bore and use bullets that are at least .001" over groove diameter. Lacking that, you could try some Remington or Winchester 250 gr lead bulleted ammo which contain .454-.455" diameter bullets.

Good luck.
w30wcf

[hightime]

My bullets are 454 diam. I think the Remington factory loads are 454's. I had shot a few 452's but not many. I'm not sure how to slug the barrel or chamber. I'll study up.

Muzzle crown? What should I see?

Owen

[longarm4146]

I have owned and shot thousands of rounds thru 9 or 10 uberti 45s (still have two 73s and two 66s) and never used anything but .452 bullets in 200 and 250 gr variety. Blowback is common with the 45s, and in my experience even more-so with the lighter bullets, but thats just a mild nuisance. If you're getting 10 in groups at 50 yds you certainly have a problem, but I doubt it is from groove/bullet diameter issues. I've heard of this kinda problem with some of the Chapparal 73s, but not the uberti guns. Good luck and let us know what u find out.
PS...something else I'd try is to fold peep out of the way and try groups with barrel sight to eliminate any inconsistency in the peep itself.

[Griff]

.454s should be just fine, unless your bore is oversized. Slug the barrel anyway so you know! What length barrrel is your rifle? It appears to be the 30". What bullet/lube combo are you using? Are you getting ANY leading? They're known for running out of lube well before the bullet exits the bore and giving poor accuracy unless your bullet carries a LOT of the right kind of lube.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I would say you are getting too much blowby. When that happens too much pressure is lost resulting in inconsistant pressures which translates to poor groups.

Try using 250's over heavy loads of IMR Trail Boss powder. It's made just for this 45lc blowby problem.

[adirondakjack]

Yep, smells like a bad chamber to me. A pard sent two of his Uberti .45s out for chamber relines to fix those kinda issues.

[hightime]

Thanks very much guys. Now I have something to chase down. I'm going to have a local gunsmith have a look at it too.
Also about the peep. I will go shoot without it right now.

Owen

Not the peep........SPG lube

[longarm4146]

Like everyone else i hope that something that we contributed may help.....as for the peep I just wanted you to be able to eliminate the simple, but sometimes not so obvious stuff.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Yep, smells like a bad chamber to me. A pard sent two of his Uberti .45s out for chamber relines to fix those kinda issues.

Some consider the SAAMI spec chambers to be bad. This discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or here on LEVERGUNS.COM . Usually it is about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the down loaded CAS ammo.
The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade guns are finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight.

I do warranty work for EMF. They imported the Rossi M92 as well. Over the years the EMF folks have had me do chamber cast on various rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases would swell but only on one side. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them.
More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it.


This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non rebated old balloon style cases like the one shown to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.



This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

[hightime]

Wow, that's a lot of information. Thanks. Now I'll see what I can do with it.

Owen

[w30wcf]

Nate Kiowa Jones,
Excellent explanation on the chamber dimension and the drawings. Thank you.

I have 3 rugers and a Marlin Cowboy rifle and the chambers average .487 / .488. I feel that the reason for the generous .45 Colt chambers is due to black powder fouling. Back in the days of yore, if one fired his revolver repeatedly there would likely be a build up of b.p. fouling to a certain extent. The overly large chambers would allow cartridges to still be chambered easily in that situation.

I have some late 1800's early 1900's b.p. ammo (U.M.C.) and the cases measure pretty much the same as the modern stuff. I don't have any of the early copper cased ammo so those cartridge dimensions could be a bit different.

Hightime,
The main reason I suggested Rem or Win 250 gr ammo (not cowboy) is because the bullets contained therein are hollow based and if your bore is oversized, they will expand to fit.

Personally, I use mostly .456 / .457 diameter bullets in my Marlin which has a .453" groove diameter. I find that the larger bullet aligns the cartridge better in the chamber and reduces any blowby. One other thing you could try is to leave the case mouth in its expanded state and not crimp. If they feed ok, that will also help with better alignment in the chamber and reduce blowby.

If your cases expand more on one side that is simply the result of the case resting on the bottom of the chamber and not being centered. I went to the trouble of running some .007" thick x .1" wide tape around the case just forward of the rim on 100 W-W cases back in the late 70's and the brass expanded evenly around the chambers of my Ruger revolvers. I just neck sized from then. I really doubt that you have a bad chamber.

I shoot a bit of black powder as well and use cases that I have annealed for that. Note the complete absense od any soot on the fired case. Bullet diameter = .457.



w30wcf

[J Miller]

I have some of the original copper cased .45 Colt ammo and it measures the same as the modern stuff. Or I should say the modern stuff measures the same as the old copper stuff.

To me this large chambers of the rifles is a NON-issue. I don't shoot the silly cowboy squib loads, I shoot full standard pressure loads and I do not get excessive sooting or blow by at all.

I like that the cowboy game has increased the interest in the old and original calibers, but I get extremely annoyed at the influence their squib loads have make on the ammo and reloading industry and the mind set of those who shoot handgun calibers in lever guns.

Crimeny .... put some powder in those cases.

Joe

[hightime]

Thanks Joe and John. I am trying the Rem 250 gr. hunting ammo. It shoots the same as my own 250 rnfp with 9 gr. Unique. Both seem to be 454 dia.

So Joe, you're saying I could go with bullet dia. as high as 457 dia.? Do you guys thing I could add a bit more powder, to expand the cases more? i'm at max. recomened now.

Owen

PS. As I'm looking at Buffalo Arms site, I see no 457 or 458 dia. molds under 300 gr. weight.

[J Miller]

Thanks Joe and John. I am trying the Rem 250 gr. hunting ammo. It shoots the same as my own 250 rnfp with 9 gr. Unique. Both seem to be 454 dia.

So Joe, you're saying I could go with bullet dia. as high as 457 dia.? Do you guys thing I could add a bit more powder, to expand the cases more? i'm at max. recomened now.

Owen

PS. As I'm looking at Buffalo Arms site, I see no 457 or 458 dia. molds under 300 gr. weight.

Owen,

First as has been said, slug the bore. Find out what it actually is. If you've already done that then the usual rule of thumb for cast bullets in rifles is .001" to .002" over grove diameter.

Now, for what it's worth, I have a Win 94AE with a .451" grove diameter and a Marlin 1894 CowBoy that I haven't slugged yet. Both of them seem to prefer .454" or larger lead bullets. So I use those.

For the FYI end of things: Winchester 255gr bullets are a nominal .456", Remington's are .455", and I have some Canadian .45 Colt bullets that are .457".
So yes, try the larger bullets.
The Winchester factory .45 Colt bullets are no longer available and the Canadian ones haven't been for decades. Remington still sells there's in the bulk. Midway sells them. I love them. Well, except for the crappy lube they use. I add lube to the groves in my Lube-A-Matic or use the Lee Liquid Alox depending on my mood.

9.0grs Unique will expand the cases just fine. In a 73 I wouldn't go any farther than that.

Also either do a chamber cast, or have it done. That will prove or disprove the bad chamber ideas the other guys have had.

Joe

[J Miller]

Owen,

A couple more things. I've never had really great luck with the common BB RNFP bullets. They work OK but that's about all. Generally they are sized to .452" and are hard as can be. So if they are not already a match to the bore, they are way too hard and will not expand to seal.
Trying a different bullet might make all the difference in the world. Perhaps the Remington bulk .45 Colt bullets. They are as I said above .455" and soft.

As for the chamber cast, here's my story about my first one:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31050
Just for the fun of it.

Joe

[hightime]

Joe, I read your story about the chamber casting. Good one! I have had one split case.
I shot a dozen rounds again tonight. Shorter range and held a three shot group to about two inches at 35 yards. My eyes arn't good. My brass front bead is a blur. I'm sure some of my issues are ''ME''. He11 to be old. Thanks again.........

Owen

[J Miller]

Joe, I read your story about the chamber casting. Good one! I have had one split case.
I shot a dozen rounds again tonight. Shorter range and held a three shot group to about two inches at 35 yards. My eyes arn't good. My brass front bead is a blur. I'm sure some of my issues are ''ME''. He11 to be old. Thanks again.........

Owen

Owen,

I had the same problem with the HUGE 3/32" front bead that came on my Marlin 1894. It was a brass or gold bead and was just impossible to get a good group with. And I use a 6:00 hold. I replaced it with a much smaller bead, 1/8th or 1/16", can't remember which and that made a big difference. The factory front sight was also way too tall for the sight picture I use. You can also blacken the bead to reduce reflection too.

muzzel end.JPG

Another thing that will help with old(er) eyes is a diopter attachment for your glasses: I got mine at Midway. They sell a kit with an inexpensive set of safety glasses, the diopter and a fold down blinder for the off eye. A few guys here have used black tape with a tiny hole punched in it as a diopter. Once put in the right place they say it works great.

IMG_0025.JPG

The split cases could be a sign of an over sized or bad chamber ~or~ just a brittle case. Here's some split cases I did a pic on some time back. These are reloads and factory loads, old and new cases:

Split cases b.JPG

Glad you enjoyed the cerosafe follies.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

I had similar issues with my Uberti 73 in .45 Colt.
Rather poor accuracy for a rifle IMHO with groups of 3-4" at 50 yd. being about the best I can consistently get with selected loads.
The bore slugs .451 and is very smooth. I even tried fire laping it. Now the bore is very slick and consistent but accuracy is still poor.
I use it for CAS now and have yet to miss a target with it when the front sight is anywhere near center of the target.

Now , my Uberti 73 , 24" rifle in .32-20 is a superbly accurate little rifle using almost any load I have tried.

[hightime]

Chuck, we need these to shoot. It sounds like you might have the same problem. I want to stick a 45 lead in a deer heart in a couple months. At anything over fifty yards, that would be a lucky shot with my gun. I don't like leaving it all to luck.

Owen

[w30wcf]

I just remembered that about 10 years go a fellow from the club I belong to bought a newn 1892 Winchester in 45 Colt.
He tried everything he could think of using cast and jacketed 250 gr bullets and could do no better than 3-4" groups @ 50 yards. He is a master class shooter so his shooting wasn't the problem.

One day, I happened to be there when he was with his '92 and me with my 1894 Marlin Cowboy. I was shooting some RCBS 300 (320 grs in w.w.) using 20/296. The bullets were sized to .457". I gave him 5 to try. They chambered aok and he shot a 1" 5 shot group with them! He then bought that mold and has been shooting that recipe with complete satisfaction.

CAUTION!! THAT LOAD GENERATES PRESSURES BEYOND WHAT '66 & '73 WINCHESTERS WILL TOLERATE SO DO NOT USE IT IN THEM.

I think it would still be worthwhile to try some .456-.457" diameter 250 gr bullets regardless of what the groove diameter is. The larger bullet will help center the cartridge in the chamber which likely will lead to better accuracy.

w30wcf

[hightime]

I'll try all these thing 'til I get it. Thanks so much. I seems that 45 Colt can be finicky. I liked my 1895 Marlin Cowboy 45-70 it shoots great right off.

Owen

[Malamute]

.4902 may be within spec, but its pretty loose. It will work brass more than needed. Mr Linebaugh cuts his 45 Colt chambers to .480. Besides tending to be more accurate, he feels that loose chambers don't give as high velocity for a given load, some of the energy is going into moving brass around rather than pushing the bullet down the barrel. I guess he's chrono'd various chambers and loads to come to that conclusion. Most ammo seems to be smaller than actual specs allow. .480 shows as max size for factory ammo, but doesnt seem to cause trouble with .480 chambered guns.

FWIW, I have a late Winchester 92 in 45 Colt. I'd as soon swap barrels and have it in 44 mag cal. The chamber is a bit loose in it, and soots the cases, even with fairly warm loads. Haven't shot it on paper any yet. It may get a new barrel after that, depending on results. I'm not real interested in a rifle that needs special size bullets to perform well. Sort of takes away some of the reason to have a rifle in the same cal as your pistol.

[adirondakjack]

The dirty little secret with leverguns is loose chambers make it easier for rifles to cycle ammo well. A tight chamber means actions have to be timed spot on, which is an incentive for makers to cut em close to max..... Couple that with already loose .45 Colt specs......

Anybody with a .44 mag marlin knows how finicky they can be. Tighter specs and all....

All that said, if the chamber is cut cyclindrical and not Kegged, and the bore is directly in line with the chamber cut, you ought to see decent accuracy. I hit an 8" gong in one shot at 300 yards with a "loose" .45 Colt Marlin....

[cpt Dan Blodgett]

Have an old rossi puma 44 mag carbine slugs measure .434 - .435 depending vs .429. Keyholes at 25 yards with some loads and at 50 with darn near everything.

Got some deparado soft cast bullets. 6 Inch groups and round holes at 100 yards. Not exactly match winning accuracy but much better than not being able to hit a 16 inch square at 100 yards.

The soft bullet upsets and seals the bore pretty well

Worth the few bucks for 100 bullets for a test.

[Chuck 100 yd]

hightime , Keep us posted on what you find out please. It would be nice to know!!

I have 5 rifles in .45 Colt caliber.
Uberti 24" 73
Marlin 1894, (both Cowboy and carbine)
Winchester 24" 94 AE
Rossi short rifle 20" oct. bbl.
They are all very accurate except the Uberti 73 using cast loads.

[hightime]

I asked a expert to try the gun and if he says it's bad , I'll send it back to Uberti again.

Owen

[KCSO]

I have had them with oversize bores but the most common defect on the 45's is the front sight! They push them on with a press and if the dovetail is a tad small the bbarrel wrinkles just under the sight and the gun won't shoot well. The only sure cure I know is to cut the barrel back and PROPERLY re instal the front sight.

[hightime]

I think you're right. I don't have the gun right now, it's at the gunsmith but, I changed the front sight and it was super tight and I did a little damage to the barrel. Could that be it?

Owen

[KCSO]

Now if you can get access to a bore scope you can look and see if there is a wrinkle or indent under the sight. Otherwise a plug gauge in the muzzle and if it binds at all you will know for sure. The 45 Colt's don't have a lot of meat under the dovetail and it doesn't take much to cause damage. Remember any little defect at the muzzle will louse up accuracy. If you can shine a bright light in the muzzle sometimes you can see a little bulge in the grooves under the sight. You may not want to shorten the barrel but a LOT of original rifles were shortened for one reason or another. If you decide to re-barrel consider putting on a Green Mountain instead of a Uberti, then you KNOW the barrel is in spec and will be a shooter. With the Uberti's you may get a 451 bore and you may get a 453 bore and for cast bullets this will make a big difference.

[hightime]

Thank you so much. I'm calling the dealer where my gun might still be at. If they still have it I'll take a good hard look at that.

Thanks again, I'll post what I find, Owen

[J Miller]

Owen,

Did you ever get the bore slugged? Just curious about that.

Joe