Winnie 94: reline, rebore, 30-30 or 38-55???

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:28 pm

Ok guys, here's my deal. I have a used Winchester 94, centennial, octagon 26" barrel, made in '66 in 30-30 cal. that I just picked up to be my kick around deer hunting rifle (i.e. no nostalgia, or collector value, it'll be a shooter). The condition is maybe 80 %, i.e. it's been used, but not too bad. I inspected it inside and out and everything looked good. I took it to the range and was horrified to see about 8 to 10" groups at 25 yds using 160 gn hornady leverevolution rounds. the bullets are scattering all over the target, not to any side in particular. I didn't see any keyholing but I don't think you would at 25 yds. The boys at the range checked it out, fired it, we gave it a thorough cleaning for copper and lead, no improvement. The bore looks great, everything is tight, I took it to a gunsmith, he can't find anything wrong with it either. I haven't yet fired it with the magazine tube detached, thinking maybe the tube has a bend in it and is causing the barrel to bend (the tube looks to be sitting correctly in the barrel bracket so I don't think that's the problem). The crown appears to be good. The only thing I can find is when I slug the barrel from the muzzle end I think I can feel an increase in resistance about 4 inches down from the muzzle, but I'm not sure. This might mean a barrel bulge. I'm going to slug the barrel from the chamber end next, so any decrease in bore size at the muzzle should be easier to detect.

So, regardless of the cause I need to do something, it's useless to me right now. A new barrel will run me around $450, too much money to spend on this rifle, it would be cheaper to sell my current gun for parts, then buy a NIB centennial and use it as my shooter. So my other options are to reline the barrel to 30-30 ($370), or I can rebore the barrel to 38-55 ($250). All things being equal I would like to keep the rifle at 30-30 because I already have all the reload dies (I reload, both jacketed and cast bullets), and it's easier to get ammo in out of the way places if I had too. But, a 38-55 has some appeal too, I like the idea of a 38-55 and the heavier bullets at a slower speed. However, one of my concerns is that if the horrible grouping is caused by some internal stress in the current barrel, or maybe a slight bend I can't detect, a rebore or reline will be a useless fix, and I'll have just thrown good money after bad.

So what do y'all think, rebore to 38-55, reline to 30-30, or if the cause of the bad grouping can't be determined, (i.e. I don't know if relining or rebore would fix it), then its too risky to do anything and the rifle outta just be scapped or sent down the road?

Mike

iceman · Post by **iceman** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:17 pm

Just a thought or 2. Did you try other ammo? Maybe it doesn't like gummy points. Another option is to chop the barrel off before the bulge if it actually is bulged. Turn into a 22 inch special edition. Just food for thought.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:23 pm

A bulge would cause a DECREASE in resistance, wouldn't it? Sounds more like a tight spot.

I'm with the others, try some other ammo.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:25 pm

iceman wrote:Just a thought or 2. Did you try other ammo? Maybe it doesn't like gummy points. Another option is to chop the barrel off before the bulge if it actually is bulged. Turn into a 22 inch special edition. Just food for thought.

My thoughts exactly - besides, a bulge is indicated by an area where the tight patch becomes LOOSE (because the barrel is bulged OUT bigger), and NOT by a tight spot.

1) Try 150gr or 170gr regular jacketed bullets.
or
2) Lap (firelap ?) the bore
or
3) Shorten the barrel & magazine.
or
4) rebore to .375" (.38-55)

In any event, switch out the stamped lifter for a post-71 cast lifter (peace-of-mind), and take care around that black-chromed receiver with screwdriver edges - they WILL chip the chrome.

.

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:49 pm

Canuckcowboy, first, let me welcome you to the forum. Then I'd try some other things before anything real major. I'd try different ammo, either handrolled or factory. I'd slug the barrel as you and others have said, loosen the mag tube, take the forend off, etc... and if that doesn't show anything I'd have a reputable smith run a bore scope down the barrel. I'd do those things long before I'd jump to selling, rebarreling, reboring, et al.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:52 pm

Wow! with it shooting that bad there has to be some visible reason. What did it slug to? I mean, those results are what you'd get shooting 30/30s out of a 32 Special! Zounds!
Anyway, I think you should surely be able to investigate this a bit more and find the problem, from which your options will be more easily seen.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:05 pm

a couple of other choices,

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Det ... catid=7500

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Det ... catid=7500

i put the second one on a 94 frame just for fun. shoots well, but be prepared
to do some [alot] of fitting. she's not a drop in kit.

or go short.

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Det ... catid=7500

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:50 pm

Canuckcowboy wrote:So, regardless of the cause I need to do something...
Mike

REGARDLESS of what ANYONE else sez:
Change ammo BEFORE you do anything else. Find some ammo that you can verify shoots well in another .30-30 before you go throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:02 pm

Different ammo.

Do a slug of the breech, the muzzle and from the tight spot to the larger of the two other slugs. Let us know what you find.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:28 pm

I have put 2 types of factory ammo through the rifle, some cheaper PPU stuff, 150 gns and the lever evolution already mentioned, both gave the same horrible results. I'll try some other factory ammo but I am skeptical that using different ammo would be the difference between acceptable grouping and 8" at 25 yds would it?

I probably shouldn't have described what I think I was feeling while slugging the barrel as a barrel bulge, as jnyork noted it really is a tight spot, .... I think. It was such a slight difference that I am not sure that is what I was feeling. As I noted previously I will slug the barrel from the chamber end next, as by the time the slug got close to the muzzle end where I think the tightening is the slug should be moving pretty freely and any tightening should be much easier to detect.

The slug results I got so far indicate a bore dimension of .308 or .309. I slugged it 6 times and couldn't nail down the dimension as I kept getting one or the other readings. I'll slug from the chamber side tomorrow.

Finding someone with a borescope is probably the next step, as well as taking off the mag tube and firing the rifle that way as well, to see if it makes a difference. I don't want a rifle that is really picky about what ammo you put through it as that defeats the whole purpose of having a rifle in a common calibre that would normally give the advantage of buying ammo anywhere, even out of the way places if the need arose. I haven't had a chance to research Pokey's link's so I'll do that later today.

Peteru44, thanks for the lifter tip, I didn't know about that. Lapping the bore is a good idea too, but that would involve spending another 50 or 60 bucks. I have to be careful to not spend too much on diagnosis or I can easily put another $150 to $200 into this thing, and I can get the barrel rebored to 38-55 for $250. I already have close to $400 into it now. Even the cost of buying a bunch of ammo has to be considered (I know, I'm a penny pincher but I only have so much to spend on guns).

Cutting down the barrel is an option but only if I know for sure that the issue is on the last 4 inches as I suspect it may be. I don't know but I bet cutting down the barrel and tube may cost as much as a rebore job (cutting the barrel and recrowning is probably pretty easy but cutting and resetting up the tube kinda scares me).

It s big mystery, there is no obvious reasons for the bad groups.

What do you guys think about residual stresses in the barrel steel, anyone heard of that actually happening to screw up groups?

thanks for all the input so far.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:06 pm

Canuckcowboy,

From everything I've read those 26" octagon barrels Win used are generally very accurate. They are also quite stiff so if the mag tube and forearm are causing it to shoot bad then they are putting a horrible stress on it.
(NOTE: The front magazine hanger is brazed onto the barrel, it does NOT come off. The old ones had a twist dovetail, the post-64 ones do not.)
Ammunition can make a difference, but from my experience not that much at such a close range.
I'd concentrate on the muzzle and crown then bore and chamber.
Just for the info try a box of Winchester factory ammo. I've never had bad results from it. I've never used the cheep foreign stuff so I wouldn't trust it.

As for the stamped carrier, don't give it a second thought unless it's actually causing problems. No sense in fixing what ain't broke.

Joe

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:19 pm

I vote for trying other ammo, however, you've already tried some with poor results. So, if it turns out you need to replace the barrel, pokey's link to that .30 W.C.F. Half Octagon Barrel Kit is mighty tempting. That would make quite a fine woods gun and you'd have something more unique as well.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:34 pm

COSteve wrote:I vote for trying other ammo, however, you've already tried some with poor results. So, if it turns out you need to replace the barrel, pokey's link to that .30 W.C.F. Half Octagon Barrel Kit is mighty tempting. That would make quite a fine woods gun and you'd have something more unique as well.

it's a nice project, alright.
here she is assembled,

newhalfoct94.jpg

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:05 pm

pokey wrote:
COSteve wrote:I vote for trying other ammo, however, you've already tried some with poor results. So, if it turns out you need to replace the barrel, pokey's link to that .30 W.C.F. Half Octagon Barrel Kit is mighty tempting. That would make quite a fine woods gun and you'd have something more unique as well.

it's a nice project, alright.
here she is assembled,

newhalfoct94.jpg

When that barrel kit was posted I thought to myself, look at that. That half-n-half looks really nice.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:00 pm

Pokey's link to NUMRICH's to the octagon barrel is real promising to me. I've never switched out a barrel before but how hard can it be? (famous last words). I'll need to get a new magazine hanger as well given that mine is brazed on.

Funny, I did a search on NUMRICH's for a replacement barrel and that item didn't show up.

I'll keep y'all updated, your advice so far has been great, thanks everyone.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:14 pm

Canuckcowboy wrote: Funny, I did a search on NUMRICH's for a replacement barrel and that item didn't show up.

numrich can be a pain in the tukkas.
go to the main page, on the left is a box that say search manufacturers by letter,
click wxyz, click winchester, pull down to 94 post 64, lots o' parts.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:29 pm

Is .35 Remington an option (I don't know the case dimensions vs. the .30-30)...?

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:44 pm

I found this old thread that some of you fellas have chimed in on regarding switching out the barrels;

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31167

and I am thinking I may have a crack at switching out the barrel to a 38-55. I don't have any of the tools but I expect you guys may be able to point me in the right direction to find them

(receiver block and barrel wrench specifically).

Is there typically any machining to be done on a replacement barrel to line it up properly? If so that would be a non started for me I don't have any of that kind of equipment. The NUMRICK octagon barrel should be an exact replacement for what I have on my current 94, except the front tube bracket on my rifle is brazed on the barrel.

I do live in the same town as John Taylor (http://johntaylormachine.com/) who makes a living reboring, relining and rebarreling but I don't know if he would consider installing a barrel he didn't make himself, and I'm not sure I want to risk offending him to ask. I kinda want to try this myself, I have until Nov 11th to get it done.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:48 pm

AMJD492,

I think keeping it at a 30-30 or a 38-55 is easier than trying a 35 rem as the innards stay the same up to a 38-55. A 32-40 has some appeal as well but I think 30-30 or 38-55 is the way to go.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:59 pm

Oh lordy, I just found the tools needed to switch out a barrel and they are not cheap. I'd love to try it but not now I think. So ok, after I do some more checking on the cause of my accuracy trouble, and if a barrel change looks like a way to go I'll get a smith to do it.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:13 pm

If you can drive a slug in the breech end in about 4" and then drive it back out, do the same for the muzzle end - I drop two 6" pieces of brass in the barrel and use centrifugal force and those two rods to drive the slug back out.

That will give you both the muzzle and breech end diameters. You might be surprised.

Lapping does not have to cost much. If you decide to do it, PM me and I'll give you my phone number and give you some cheap ways to do it.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:43 pm

Good tip on slugging both ends of the barrel.

I was going to use David Tubbs final finish system to lap the barrel, but not until I know if this barrel is a lemon or not.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:16 am

I keep thinking about your problem, Canuckcowboy. Seems to me the ideas so far are good ideas for working on a gun that gives 4" groups at 100 yards and you want to improve on that. What you have is much worse: only thing I can think of that would spray your bullets that bad (now that we know the bore is reasonably close to the right size) is something very wrong at the crown. If you don't see something obvious real soon now I'd be voting for getting rid of that thing and starting over.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:51 pm

Canuckcowboy wrote:Oh lordy, I just found the tools needed to switch out a barrel and they are not cheap. I'd love to try it but not now I think. So ok, after I do some more checking on the cause of my accuracy trouble, and if a barrel change looks like a way to go I'll get a smith to do it.

What a padded vise and crescent wrench with a bit of leather to go inside the jaws?

Works for me!

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:00 pm

Pete44ru wrote:
iceman wrote:Just a thought or 2. Did you try other ammo? Maybe it doesn't like gummy points. Another option is to chop the barrel off before the bulge if it actually is bulged. Turn into a 22 inch special edition. Just food for thought.

My thoughts exactly - besides, a bulge is indicated by an area where the tight patch becomes LOOSE (because the barrel is bulged OUT bigger), and NOT by a tight spot.

1) Try 150gr or 170gr regular jacketed bullets.
or
2) Lap (firelap ?) the bore
or
3) Shorten the barrel & magazine.
or
4) rebore to .375" (.38-55)

In any event, switch out the stamped lifter for a post-71 cast lifter (peace-of-mind), and take care around that black-chromed receiver with screwdriver edges - they WILL chip the chrome.

.

I agree completely. The last thing I'd try would be the rebore. That particular vintage of Winchester commemoratives (and there were lots of them) shared one good thing in common besides tacky decoration--most of those octagon barrels were very good. Those that didn't become wallhangers more often than not were found to be pretty darned accurate.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:15 pm

You might need a custom mold made for a slightly larger diameter bullet to fit the bore better .310 or .311. I believe LEE still has this service for a nominal fee.

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:19 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Is .35 Remington an option (I don't know the case dimensions vs. the .30-30)...?

This would IMO not be practical, from what I've read in this thread so far. The 35 Remington is a great round--but the Model 94 that Canuckcowboy has is a rifle that's made for a rimmed cartridge. The 35 Remmie is rimless. Moreover, it's rimless with different dimensions than other rimless rounds like the 30-06 and .308. You'd be getting into some major machining to end up with a Model 94 bolt that would work with rimless cartridges if it would be possible at all. After reading all of what everyone's posted, I'm starting to think that somewhere along the way, someone may have been shooting some bad cast bullets through this rifle and inside the barrel there may be a bit of leading somewhere. Whatever's going on is really odd, given that this particular vintage of Winchester octagon barrels are normally found to be extremely accurate with both cast and jacketed rounds. My gut feeling is that whatever is going on is fixable once the problem is found. Right now we're all just guessing until he tries some of the things you guys have suggested.

rusty gunns · Post by **rusty gunns** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:12 pm

kimwcook wrote:Canuckcowboy, first, let me welcome you to the forum. Then I'd try some other things before anything real major. I'd try different ammo, either handrolled or factory. I'd slug the barrel as you and others have said, loosen the mag tube, take the forend off, etc... and if that doesn't show anything I'd have a reputable smith run a bore scope down the barrel. I'd do those things long before I'd jump to selling, rebarreling, reboring, et al.

I agree completely.

I recently purchased an 1889 Marlin in 38-40. It calls for a .401 bullet. I had the same problem. Not a hit at 25 yards.

I went to a .403 and started hitting the paper regularly at 25 yards, but no groups at all. I slugged the barrel and founf this gun needed .406 bullets.

I bought a Lee lube/sizer die ordered to .405 and push .410 bullets through it.

Now I get constant cloverleafs at 25 yards.

So often its a simple resolution.

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:34 am

Well I finally gave up on the Winchester. There were a number of solutions as we have discussed but the cost of all of them were just too much to justify. The cheapest fix was to move the Winchester move on to the next one.

So that's what I have done. I am thinking getting something new this time, no issues, or if there are issues the manufacturer can address it.

Mike

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:58 am

Mike,
I know that you said that you have moved on but the situation is a bit intriguing for me. Sorry for being a bit late on this.
I have a Teddy Roosevelt '94 Commemorative Rifle which did not shoot well at all with 150 gr ammo. 170 gr was much better but groups were still not as good as I would have liked.

I slugged the barrel.....surprise(!).....groove diameter was close to .310"

.
I had gotten into bullet casting by that time and tried some .311" diameter 170 gr bullets and all was well with groups running in the 2" range at 100 yards.

w30wcf

Canuckcowboy · Post by **Canuckcowboy** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:33 pm

I tried that first and slugged the barrel at .308 to .309, so I don't think that was it. I could use larger cast bullets if an oversized barrel was the issue, but the problem with that is that I bought a 30-30 so it would be easier to get factory ammo, i.e. you can buy 30-30 ammo anywhere.

I just today picked up a Buffalo Bill commemorative, which is basically the identical rifle to the one I got rid of, other than manufactured in '68. I am nervous as hell that I will find the same issue, if so I will be done with Winchester commemoratives, octagon barrel or not.

Winnie 94: reline, rebore, 30-30 or 38-55???

Winnie 94: reline, rebore, 30-30 or 38-55???

Re: Winnie 94: reline, rebore, 30-30 or 38-55???

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