OT- Most famous lawman or outlaw from Texas?

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:40 pm

I'm doing a little survey. Since this forum goes all over the world, I was interested in which Lawman or outlaw would come to your mind first if someone like me asked you to name the most famous lawman or outlaw from Texas. You can name one of each if you like and lawman means anything to do with the law. I was having a few beers with a fellow collector a few months back and we were contemplating this question; we wondered what the answer would be the most often. Thanks for your help and indulgence beforehand. RR7

P.S. I haven't been out of the house much lately as you can tell.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:45 pm

Frank Hammer lawman, john wesley hardin outlaw. And those are undeniable facts.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:47 pm

JOHN WESLEY HARDIN, OUTLAW
FRANK HAMER, TEXAS RANGER, WHO KILLED MORE MEN THAN HARDIN EVER DREAMED OF.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:56 pm

John Wesley Hardin was the first name that came to me regarding outlaws.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:59 pm

First ones that popped up were, Judge Roy Bean and Billy the Kid.
I haven't been out much either RR, been stuck in My chair for a week now.But I am going to venture out tonite.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:10 pm

Hamer, and Sheila Jackson Lee

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:17 pm

:

BlaineG wrote:Hamer, and Sheila Jackson Lee

And who is Hammer ?

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:22 pm

Judge Roy Bean and Bonnie & Clyde

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:04 pm

TR Lone Wolf Gonzales - Lawman
Billy the kid - outlaw

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:33 pm

kimwcook wrote:TR Lone Wolf Gonzales - Lawman
Billy the kid - outlaw

Billy the Kid?
Are we talking about people from Texas or people who may have passed through Texas?

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:40 pm

765x53 wrote:
kimwcook wrote:TR Lone Wolf Gonzales - Lawman
Billy the kid - outlaw
Billy the Kid?
Are we talking about people from Texas or people who may have passed through Texas?

I think Billy the Kid hid in Texas from the New Mexico law and more than one person living in Texas later claimed to be Billy the Kid years later. If there's another connection I haven't heard it yet.

Dave James · Post by **Dave James** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:49 pm

Sam Bass and Hammer

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:54 pm

Sam Houston.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:17 pm

Dallas Stoudenmire... didn't he work both sides? But wait, you said famous. Well, there's me... possibly the last TX LEO to issue a speeding ticket to a driver while working on horseback!

Wait, you said "...most famous", that's probably not widely known.

So, ok, JH Hardin & Frank Hamer, but maybe JB Armstrong, (the TX Ranger that arrested Hardin in FL). Hamer being a more modern era and Armstrong of the "old west" variety. IMO, Judge Roy Bean is probably more in the infamous category, and not simply "famous".

Sam Bass was born in Indiana, just had the bad luck to try outlawin' in TX and Billy the Kid is thought by some to have been born in NYC.

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:42 pm

Hammer and Bonnie and Clyde. Bonnie was born a hop and a skip from the ranch where my Dad was born and robbed the bank there. If grandpa had any money, it'd a been in that bank. If it rains I'll be shooting some doves there soon!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:56 pm

pwl44m wrote::
BlaineG wrote:Hamer, and Sheila Jackson Lee
And who is Hammer ?

Actually its Hamer, and you've got to be kidding about not knowing. He lead the group that ambushed Bonnie and Clyde. He had been a Texas Ranger, but I think at the time he was retired or some such. Came out to go after them.

And I have to agree with quite a few and say Hardin for the bad guy, but Ranger Hayes Cooper gets my vote for lawman. But James Gillette who wrote "Six Years With The Texas Rangers" comes in a close second.

OJ · Post by OJ » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:04 pm

Terry Murbach wrote:JOHN WESLEY HARDIN, OUTLAW
FRANK HAMER, TEXAS RANGER, WHO KILLED MORE MEN THAN HARDIN EVER DREAMED OF.

No way to top that -

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:11 pm

I'm reading "Autumn of the Gun" by Ralph Compton. He builds a story around Wyatt Earp, Sam Bass, Billy the Kid, Sam Bass, and McNelly's Rangers (by implication not direct mention) all in one book. Besides Earp, I also have Jauquim Jackson Texas Ranger on the my mind as a lawman.

rimrock

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:27 pm

IMHO, it's a tie, between two banditos:

* Kenneth Lay (ENRON)

and

*Jeffrey Skilling (ENRON)

.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:46 pm

BlaineG wrote:Hamer, and Sheila Jackson Lee

JWH is always the first to pop into my mind when I think Tecas criminals.

How about Chuck Norris for the most famous lawman?

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:07 pm

For the 19th Century, I would have to go with Wes Hardin (outlaw) and Dallas Stoudenmire (lawman). Billy the Kid killed his first man at the Butterfield Stage relay station east of El Paso, but that is the limit of his contact with Texas. He is mostly myth anyway.

For Indian fighters I would have to go with Jack Coffee Hays and J.S. "Rip Ford".

If you are talking 20th. Century, the I will agree with Framk Hamer and several other Rangers I could name.

milespb · Post by **milespb** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:14 pm

I totally agree with Frank Hamer and probably J W Hardin but what about Lee Harvey Oswald

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:32 am

For Outlaws, John Wesley Hardin comes immediately to mind.

When you say lawmen, the Texas Rangers are the first guys I think of. And when you say Texas Rangers, how can the first name that comes to mind not be: John Coffee Hays !

- DixieBoy

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:26 am

I believe Bill Tillman was from Texas, also. He was a Lawman, mostly, and I believe unless I am remembering wrong, was the lawman that killed John Wesley Hardin. However, it wasn't a fair fight, if there is such a thing, because Tilman shot Hardin in the back of the head, but I don't believe anyone though to badly of Tilman for doing that way.

That's the bad thing about having a reputation, because some people won't chance a confrontation with a true bad man, It's just safer to shoot them first in the back of the head.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:10 am

I didn't know there were any famous lawmen and outlaws from Texas.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:16 am

Where is Texas? Is it close to Hollywood? Were these guys Mounties? JUST KIDDING TEXANS!

From the frigid North it would be Hamer and Bonnie and Clyde.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:40 am

John selman shot hardin, not tilgman. Got him in back the head.
Tilgman was a lawman in OK, sam elliott played him in "You know my name", by the way, just about one of my favorite movies. Eventualy tilgman was shot by a turncoat revinewer around 1920.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:41 am

Lastmohecken wrote:I believe Bill Tillman was from Texas, also. He was a Lawman, mostly, and I believe unless I am remembering wrong, was the lawman that killed John Wesley Hardin. However, it wasn't a fair fight, if there is such a thing, because Tilman shot Hardin in the back of the head, but I don't believe anyone though to badly of Tilman for doing that way.

That's the bad thing about having a reputation, because some people won't chance a confrontation with a true bad man, It's just safer to shoot them first in the back of the head.

I THINK IT WAS JOHN SELMAN WHO SHOT HARDIN.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:45 am

Lastmohecken wrote:I believe Bill Tillman was from Texas, also. He was a Lawman, mostly, and I believe unless I am remembering wrong, was the lawman that killed John Wesley Hardin. However, it wasn't a fair fight, if there is such a thing, because Tilman shot Hardin in the back of the head, but I don't believe anyone though to badly of Tilman for doing that way.

That's the bad thing about having a reputation, because some people won't chance a confrontation with a true bad man, It's just safer to shoot them first in the back of the head.

Did you mean Bill Tilghman, the Dep US Marshall out of Fort Smith, AR? I don't recall him ever being a lwman in TX, just the I.T., and OK afteer statehood. I think he was born up north. John Selman, Sr. is who killed Hardin.

redlevel42 · Post by **redlevel42** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:54 am

I have to divide the lawman category into:

19th century Lawman = Samuel Walker of Walker Colt fame
20th century lawman = Frank Hamer

I think Hardin is the hands down winner in the "outlaw" division.

"Texas, by God!"

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:01 am

I have to go back and do some reading. JWH was a killer, but really, I dont remember reading what made him a outlaw. I dont think he was a thief, bank robber, or train robber, do any of you know just why he got in so much trouble to where he had to kill people?

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:08 pm

Frank Hamer and Hardin are my vote. Hamer went from a horse ranger to a car ranger.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:34 pm

I recognized the name, John Wesley Hardin, but had no recollection of the man, so I had to Google him.

He was born in the same town I was. Son of a preacher-man, too. I got in a little trouble at school as well, but not like this.

From Wikipedia :
At the school, another student, Charles Sloter, taunted Hardin as being the author of some graffiti on the schoolhouse wall which was insulting to a girl in his class. Hardin denied writing the poetry, accusing the other boy of being the author. Sloter attacked Hardin with a knife, but before he could strike, Hardin drew his gun and shot Charles twice (in the chest), almost killing him. Hardin was nearly expelled over the incident even though it was at his own father's institution

School has changed a bit since then

rossim92 · Post by **rossim92** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:35 pm

wyatt earp and billy the kid

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:09 pm

My buddy and I settled on John Wesley Hardin and Judge Roy bean. We figured they would be the ones most people would recognize in the non-collecting public. Capt. Frank Hamer was a close third. Wyatt Earp and Billy the kid were from Iowa and New York but making their fame in Kansas, Arizona, and New Mexico. Not to say they didn't travel to Texas on occasion, they did.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:13 pm

Lastmohecken wrote:I believe Bill Tillman was from Texas, also. He was a Lawman, mostly, and I believe unless I am remembering wrong, was the lawman that killed John Wesley Hardin. However, it wasn't a fair fight, if there is such a thing, because Tilman shot Hardin in the back of the head, but I don't believe anyone though to badly of Tilman for doing that way.

That's the bad thing about having a reputation, because some people won't chance a confrontation with a true bad man, It's just safer to shoot them first in the back of the head.

Tilghman was from Oklahoma and he didnt shoot Wes Hardin.

765x53 · Post by **765x53** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:51 am

Most of the people discussed here were born, raised or even became famous somewhere else before coming to Texas.
Bonnie and Clyde and Frank Hamer may be the only native Texans.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:10 am

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:14 am

This is just about those that established their permanent residence in Texas.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:14 am

I still say Hamer and Hardin. Both born in texas and most "famous" on each side of the law. Also Sam Bass should be a close secound outlaw. You get down to it I belive Hardin was more of a gunfighter, just being wild and shooting his way out of situations his mouth got him in to. I havent found any info that said he was anykind of theif, robber etc. He went to prision, got out and became a lawyer! Now if we go farther back its a different set like Hays etc. Probley in those days the criminal would have been renegade indians that teorrized the country. I have a great old book, "Three years amoung the commanches", about Nelson Lee, ghost wrote for him as he was illeiterate, in 1858. He was a seaman, shipwrecked and arrived in texas in 1840. He joined the texas rangers under Ewen Cameron in 1840. He at various times drove horses to california with 3 other men etc. He was captured by the commanches and taken to mexico. Finaly he escaped and found his way to his home in the NE states and some unknown writer wrote his story. The book I have I bought about 50+ years ago, it is almost unknown and out of print, but very interesting.
EDIT: Man, what you cant find on the internet! Here is the entire book I just found!
http://www.texasranger.org/E-Books/Thre ... anches.pdf

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:35 am

Edited my post, didn`t mean to get off track, was just havin fun.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:33 pm

Booger Bill, I agree with you but Hardin robbed a few card games in his life when things didn't go his way. Capt. Frank Hamer was no man to cross. I talked to "Lone Wolf" before he died about Capt. Hamer. He said he was the toughest man he had ever met or served under, as well as best shot. The discussion was who would the person on the street name if asked the question. There are many men and a few women not even talked about. It just usually depends on the amount of written word in old time magazines and books they got mentioned in. It is a fun topic around the campfire whether it's Texas or all the other states included.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:05 pm

Booger Bill... Your forgot that Hardin was a Sunday School teacher in prison. When he got out, he moved to El Paso. He had some business cards printed there, but I don't recall him every doing any legal work. I have held one of his business cards. Bobby McNellis (deceased) who owned El Paso Saddlery had one along with two of Hardin's pistols.

Mostly Hardin just drank and played cards. His prison conversion only seem to last long enough to hear the front gate of the prison close behind him with him on the outside.

xerts1191 · Post by **xerts1191** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:46 pm

John King Fisher,
1904 in Quartzite Az. Texas badman John King Fisher shot a man in the head because he wanted to see if a bullet would bounce off his bald pate head. Served a brief prison sentence at age 16, went on to be a rustler along the Texas and New Mexico border, a crack shot he admitted to killing at least 7 men but later said he didn't count all the Mexican's he had gunned down.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:37 pm

Charles, I got one of those cards from Bobby along with a few other items years ago. Hardin tried to defend "Killing" Jim Miller in his shooting of Bud Frazier but I can't remember now what happened to the case. All I know is many people thought that Miller killed Pat Garrett. He was hanged in Ada Oklahoma along with three other characters in a barn.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:33 pm

First thought: Hamer and Barrow, although most folks now day would have no idea of that Texas was involved. John Wesley Hardin was my second thought for an outlaw.

Aggiecubpilot · Post by **Aggiecubpilot** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:48 pm

I was going to put in a plug for Walker and McNelly as lawmen, also for the Dallas FBI man that took down John Dillenger.

Some you may not be familliar with from my home town of Uvalde, are the Newton Boys of movie fame and a man named King Fisher, who stole cattle and horses from my great grandfather among others. He later straightened out and became a lawman haha. Different times them was!

edit: Lever30 knows who I'm talk in about. King Fisher may not be from Uvalde but he's buried here. A funny story regarding his rustling activity:

My great great grandfather sent a man named Bean Salinas to get his stolen horses back from King Fisher. He was no older than 12 years old at the time and rode up to Fishers ranch on a donkey. He went right up to Fisher and said "My boss wants his horses back!". Fisher laughed and sent men back with Salinas to help him bring the horses back! Bean Salinas later became sheriff in Eagle Pass, TX.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:23 am

My first thought for lawman was "Lone Wolf Gonzales", but on reflection agree with Frank Hamer and Wes Hardin for outlaw. Was married to a woman who was kin to Hardin. One of her brothers looked just like him.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:16 am

M. M. Wright wrote:My first thought for lawman was "Lone Wolf Gonzales", but on reflection agree with Frank Hamer and Wes Hardin for outlaw. Was married to a woman who was kin to Hardin. One of her brothers looked just like him.

IF I REMEMBER RIGHT HIS NAME WAS " MANNY[MANUEL] GONZUELLAS." LET IT BE NOTED ALSO HE WAS A SPANIARD, NOT OF MEXICAN DECENT. I ALSO HAD IT FORCEABLY NOTED TO ME TO CORRECTLY PRONOUNCE HIS LAST NAME 'GON--ZOO-A-AS.'

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:19 am

Terry, Capt. Manuel Terrazas Gonzaullas's dad was of Spanish-Portuguese descent and was born in Spain as was Cap. The name Gonzaullas is Portuguese, not Spanish. his mother was of German descent from Canada. I have never heard that he was called "Manny". It was ether "Lone Wolf" or Cap. Maybe you were thinking of Manny Gault but you could be right at some time in his life. I met him a few times through a past friend of mine Robert Stephens who wrote one of his biographies. It was some of the most interesting times I have had listening to his stories. RR7