OT-The "shoulder shot." How good? How easy?

[getitdone1]

Say your hunting bear, buffalo or lion. How difficult is the shoulder shot? Assuming you have a powerful cartridge using a heavy, long bullet.

Would the area of shoulder you need to hit be as big or bigger than the brain or spine? I assume you'd aim for the shoulder joint area.

This is relative to, as they say, "breaking-down game" with the shoulder shot. Then, go up to them and put one in the brain.

I know a heart shot can result in a buffalo, lion or bear continuing the charge and possibly killing you. Sure they'll die but maybe after you die!

Don

[86er]

I guess this depends on the position the animal is in and whether it is alert to your presence or not. The bony composition on a buffalo or bear is a pretty large area and the bones are somewhat brittle. Also, bone fragments can easily perforate the lungs or arteries and other vessels. A buffalo has great difficulty standing on rear legs without at least one solid front leg. A bear can stand on rear legs and balance, and the shorter front legs and shoulder anatomy make it possible for a bear to flare the elbows out and lower its weight, while raising its shoulders. This allows it to bear a lot of body weight on broken shoulder(s). Cats have articulated shoulders, actually scapulars. First, the vitals are behind and much lower than a shoulder when the cat is in most normal postures. The actual lethal effect of the shoulder wound is less than most other species. The ancillary damage to vitals from a shoulder wound is therefore less. The cats bones and scapular are more pliable than a bear or buffalo. Many bullets will punch a clean hole in a cat's shoulder bones without splintering effect or elongated fractures. Next, since the shoulder on a cat can rotate quite a bit forward, shot placement is difficult for someone not extremely familiar with the size of cat and its particular anatomy. With a bear, and moreso from a treestand or downward angle, a very good shot would be about 1/3 of the way down the bear right at the crease of the shoulder with the path of the bullet exiting low and forward in the opposite shoulder. This is likely to take the heart, maybe a lung and could effect the aorta, carotid or pulmonary artery. Otherwise, on flat ground, the bears heart is close behind the front leg and a true center shoulder shot would be above it and in the frontmost portion of the lungs (the least efficient place to damage the lungs of a bear). Buffalo are much more likely to be immobile with broken shoulders and a low shoulder shot could hit lungs or the top ventricles of the heart. A cat may remain mobile with a forward shoulder shot with no damage to vitals, or it may be mobile with a high shoulder shot for similar reasons. A rearmost centered shoulder shot would be best. On lion that are undisturbed we advise a true lung shot. They have high blood pressure and lose the ability to keep the pressure very quickly when the lungs bleed, plus they have a fast heartbeat that requires a lot of air and this ceases with the lung shot. Typically an alert lion will be shot to center the on-side lung and exit the shoulder. With a lion or black buffalo there is usually a PH that can take a shot if the wounded beast is making good ground. On treed leopards, we encourage the center shoulder shot. This is where a good PH must make exactly the right call on when to shoot. The reason is that we want the leopard to fall from the tree and be unable to scamble away. Leopards can pull there whole body weight with their front legs, whereas lions cannot. Also, a leopard is 160 or so pounds where a lion is 400 or so pounds. The spine shot is hard on cats and bears. First due to the hair and the arched back on the bear and sloped back on the big cats. You do not want to ruin a hide on a cat as they are nearly always full body mount or full rug. If a spine shot does occur on a bear, it is easier to conceal through taxidermy. A "too high" but "not quite high enough" shot on a bear or cat can be non-fatal. On a buffalo, the high shoulder shot, aka low spine is quite defined on the animal. It is much easier to locate and is quite a bit larger than the other animals. Too high will be a true spine shot but low would have to be 5 inches low to again enter vitals. The space between could be a non-vital shot. CRS shot a bison two weeks ago with a 450 grain solid at 2100 fps and it hit just below the spine but did not hit the shoulder. The bullet exited and the bison stood looking at us and continued to walk away after a few seconds. So the "spine" shot can be used well on buffalo with familiarization of anatomy and accurate shooting. Any of these dangerous, alert animals should be shot in the brain. It is the only shot that is instantly incapacitating and will cease the forward motion of the animal. I've seen written PH's condoning the "frontal chest" shot and the "over the head into the spine" shot for charging buffalo, and sometimes other species. I've also heard to aim at the nose. If it is a true charge and danger is reality either of those shots are utterly irresponsible. Only a "between the eyes" shot is a sure way to stop a charge and ensure safety of your client and yourself. I often suggest brain shots on standing buffalo, lion and other animals if I am confident of the hunters ability, rifles accuracy and level of power. The biggest resistance is the potential trophy damage. I've never ruined a head beyond repair of the taxidermist on these big species with a brain shot. I think for the majority of hunters on the majority of species the lung shot is most effective. It will usually show blood on the ground, it is easier to get an exit wound, no animal can go too far or long without oxygen and it is easy to hit due to large size and familiar location with some room for error. It is less taxing on bullets too. The shoulder shot is "good" on buff, bear and lions under more controlled conditions for specific reasons. The shoulder shot can be very difficult on a bear and moreso on a cat but it is not too difficult to identify and execute on a buffalo.

[getitdone1]

86er,

Thanks for taking the time to answer not only this question but others in the past. Not just answering but answering in detail.

I expect you know of the following books. I recalled that Craig Boddington had a book about shot placement on game animals so just got back here from www.amazon.com and found the book.

Perfect Shot-Mini Edition North America by Craig Boddington

I believe he has a larger version but not sure if it has the same title.

Then I found another fellow who wrote a similar book but about African game animals.

Perfect Shot-Mini Edition For Africa by Kevin Robertson. This one's also on DVD.
There is a larger version of this and rather pricey at about 64.00 Actually absolute peanuts compared to the cost of an African hunt--and if you're really concerned about doing it right and having a successful hunt.

Surely important books for the hunter. There may be other books of this kind I'm not aware of.

Don

[olyinaz]

VERY educational post.

Thanks,
Oly

[harry]

That pretty much says it, good explanation.
Harry

[86er]

I like Craig Boddington, he has always been good to my family and I. His Perfect Shot books are valuable resources. From a different perspective, Craig's book is a book on anatomy. He is a hunter/client, not a PH or guide. He has more safari experience than anyone alive and his opinion and observations are not to be taken lightly. But his book is really about first shots on undisturbed animals by clients. Kevin Robertson is a great guy with a keen sense of humor and extensive knowledge of african animals. He's a veterinarian that has a PH license, although he does take some clients hunting dangerous game. Again, his book(s) are well written and informative. What I don't care for is his book on buffalo. There are many contradictory statements as well as what I would call bad information. He is a real momentum and penetration advocate but then he touts the 505 Gibbs as one of the best cartridges. Maybe for the client, but it has less penetration that even a 350 or 380 grain 357HH. It also recoils heavily unless the rifle is about 12.5 or more pounds. It is also a bolt action. Then he advocates frontal chest shots are charging buffalo. He also describes a buffalos posture during a charge incorrectly. The fact is most PH's go out of their way to avoid confrontation with animals and alleviate having to deal with a charge. One of the most common practices is to have the client shoot from 50 or more yards from a position of concealment and wait and hour. What is the animal is suffering for that hour? What if you have to track it and catch up? What if it waits for you in some thicket? I prefer to follow up immediately. The client started this, he/she can finish it with my help. I've not experience a huge number of charges but have over a dozen with all african dangerous game and water buffalo in the US combined. Some of the forum members have stood beside me to face a charge. The charge is encountered more often because of the way I hunt or moreso pursue a wounded animal or an aggressive healthy animal. If you want to read about stopping charges from someone that has done it 100 times or more and understand why they charge, what works to stop them and very relevant info about the shot placement and animals reactions plunk down a one hundred dollar bill for Fear No Death. I am in no way comparing myself to CB or KR - I respect both of them tremendously. I have learned from others and from my own experimentation what may lead to a charge and how to effectively fix the problem to the best of my ability - every time. I have said this before to the displeasure of my colleagues - a PH that takes dangerous game hunters out and does not carry a large bore double rifle is irresponsible. But if you always "play it safe" you will rarely need your rifle for an emergency, just a back-up shot, and if an emergency arises that PH is really betting on one shot.

[Canuck Bob]

I read Hunter, by J.R. Hunter as a kid. Was he the real deal or something else?

In my experience with general hunting the side shoulder shot is a good anchor as it restricits movement. I once tracked a poor whitetail with no front leg, not my shot and I never hunted with him again. I've never seen a griz skinned but the blacks have a fairly massive cartlidge structure that can absorb some serious impact and keep working.

Frontal shoulder is a tricky target. I find that the shoulder girdle is narrower than one expects and it is easy to shoot into the muscle if a little wide.

For meat hunting a shoulder shot destroys huge amounts of meat with magnums and losing half a deer is not unusual!

I used shoulder on long shots sometimes in heavy timber and willow swamps for moose. The 444 is made for such work though.

[Lastmohecken]

Well, like it was said, I suppose it depends on the shot offered, how the game is standing, etc.

I know for deer, anyway, I generally shoot for the shoulder, often high shoulder when I can make the shot, or if the game is really close, depending on the gun I am using, I will shoot for the neck, right at the base of the skull on a meat deer. I don't worry about meat loss on a shoulder shot, as there is not that much meat on a shoulder anyway.

I used to shoot for the lungs, and granted you don't loose any meat with that shot, but I have had too many deer run a fair piece when lung shot, and quite often just far enough to get out of sight, and have to be tracked up, and also, they will often end up falling down in a much harder place to carry then out of like the bottom of a draw, down the side of a mountain, etc. and the older I get, the more picky I get on where I want a deer to drop dead at, and my first choice is where I can still get to them with a pickup or 4-wheeler to load. So I will gladly trade 5 lbs of bloodshot meat, for an easy time of getting them in the truck.

[Canuck Bob]

.... and the older I get, the more picky I get on where I want a deer to drop dead at, and my first choice is where I can still get to them with a pickup or 4-wheeler to load. So I will gladly trade 5 lbs of bloodshot meat, for an easy time of getting them in the truck.

Good point, my uncle who homesteaded in Northern Alberta in prime moose country was fond of saying, "we don't shoot a moose unless he has two feet in the pickup box".

Given my current age and condition I want to hook a chain on em and drag them to the road at least. I would make the same trade now that I think about it.