Lee Factory Crimp dies for .357 & .44 Mags, .45 Colt

[AJMD429]

The "real" FCD (see below) is one I'm fond of, and it is offered by LeePrecision.com in most "rifle" cartridges.

The "fake" FCD (see below) they sell for "pistol" cartridges doesn't have the septated fingers that are squeezed by the die, instead having a 'floating' carbide ring that certainly crimps the case, but more akin to a regular 'roll' crimp. Personally, I don't care for them.

Lee WILL make you a "real" FCD for about any cartridge for $30 - http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Custom-Services.html.

I'd been going to get around to having ones made for .45 Colt and .357 Mag for awhile, and had figured out how to use a .44-40 (Lee considers that a "rifle" cartridge) FCD die for .44 Mag.

RanchDog Molds now has some "real" ('Rifle' type) Lee FCD's for those calibers - AND .41 Mag, and .308 Marlin Express, & .338 Marlin Express, actually. Evidently he was smart enough to get around to it faster than me, and ordered a bunch (he's selling them for only $20 apiece, and hopefully making at least a bit of profit on them).

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.p ... Path=53_54

"Rifle" type FCD - - "Pistol" type FCD -

[J Miller]

I have limited use, one caliber - 30-30, of the Lee rifle FCD. But I have much more extensive use of the pistol FCD in .45 Colt. I understand the differences between the two.
I fail to see how using the collett type of crimp die on pistol rounds will any more beneficial than the ring in use now.

Many rifle cartridges use a segmented crimp from the factories, the Lee FCD copies this and does a pretty decent job of it.
But I cannot remember any pistol rounds with anything but a full diameter crimp.

So please educate me; how will the segmented rifle type crimp improve the crimp on a pistol round?

Joe

[AJMD429]

What I've found (and I realize I've probably loaded far less rounds than many on the forum) is that the 'pistol' type ones they sell are still case-length-sensitive, despite their advertisements, and that they are difficult to adjust to a 'firm-but-gentle' crimp (I'll admit, they will crimp pretty much any bullet, even where the cannelure isn't, if desired).

On the other hand, the 'rifle' type I've found very easy to adjust to 'just right', never over-crimping or damaging cases.

Ironically, while I do trim my bottleneck rifle brass (so a 'regular' crimping die that is 'length-sensitive' wouldn't be a problem for those cases), I don't generally trim my straight pistol brass, so it's nice to get a uniform crimp even on odd-lots of cases.

I first tried the FCD in .32-20 (Lee considers the .32-20 a "rifle" round for FCD purposes), where I had lots of brands and lengths and thicknesses of brass, but since I wasn't going for 'target' loads, I didn't segregate or trim that brass either. One of the things I feared was that the 'rifle' type crimp would wear out the fragile .32-20 case mouths faster than the roll-crimper I'd been using, but that didn't appear to be the case. I didn't bother looking for a taper-crimper, since the brass was of several brands and varied in thickness. So far, I've continued to be pleased with the .32-20 FCD, though I don't shoot a high volume of that round.

A couple years back, I wanted to see if I'd like the 'rifle' type FCD for .44 Mag, instead of the normal RCBS one I'd been using, and to do it, I had to hand-file a few thousandths off the bottom of a .44-40 Lee FCD ('rifle' type, vs. the .44 Mag 'pistol' type they offer). I found (again this is just 'me') that I got more uniform crimps, which seemed to help the accuracy I was getting from the 2400 (19 grains for a 240 JSP or therabouts). I loaded around 1,000 rounds or so with that die, and grew to appreciate the consistency and so on, so I guess I'm hooked now...

I think that most of us who reload get used to what we start with (brand-wise), and learn it's quirks and how to use it to best advantage, and since pretty much all of the name-brand stuff out there is decent, we turn out good-quality reloads with it in pretty short order. Then, unless some new competing product really has a definite edge, we tend to stick with what we have confidence/experience in, and most of the time there's little or no reason to change. For that reason, I'm not really trying to persuade anyone they NEED the FCD's for those cartridges, but in case anyone here WANTS them, I thought I'd let it be known that RanchDog has now got them in stock.

When I get them and get to using them, I'll try to do some semblance of a "range report" if I get time. Even then, "your mileage may vary..."

[J Miller]

As far as the pistol cases varying in length and being difficult to get a consistent crimp on with a standard die, I agree totally. I've solved that by developing a "feel" for the amount of pressure my press / die combo needs to make the crimp I want. But that's only cos I've been doing it for nearly 40 years.

A Lee rifle type FCD in .45 Colt might be an easier way to achieve that goal. Perhaps someday if someone already has one for sale I'll try it. But I doubt I'd get one special made.
Duh, just noticed and looked at the Ranchdog link. Sometimes I can be blinder than a rock.

Joe

[mav]

If you are loading over sized bullets, say .432 for your 44 Mag Marlin, the pistol FCD seems to size the bullet down. At least that's been my experience. I'm hoping the "rifle type" FCD will eliminate that problem.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I quit using the Lee FCD in .30-30 .
I don't like the little dings it puts into the edge of the case mouth because of the segmented type of crimp it does. It cant be good for my brass life. I do use Lee pistol type FCD all the time.
I much prefer the regular roll crimp that most dies give.
I crimp and seat as separate operations so for me the roll crimp is the way to go.

[Tycer]

Thanks Doc,

Ordered one in 357. I shoot fat bullets and the pistol FCD resizes the entire case and crushes the bullet. I've been using a Redding taper crimp.

[DixieBoy]

Hmmm...this is interesting.

Forgive my ignorance, because my reloading has been almost exclusively pistol cartridges to date, and hopefully I can make my questions understandable.

First off, I should say that I've been using a Lee FCD for .45 Colt mainly because I shoot oversize bullets in my Blackhawk. This revolver likes .453 sized bullets, and I've shot Hornady's swaged .454 bullet successfully at lower velocities too. When I first tried a Redding Profile Crimp die on my loads the results were not what I'd been led to expect. The Redding crimp die felt incredibly tight, and actually cut small rings of brass (very fine, almost like hairs) from the tops of all my cases.

I've got kind of a screwball assortment of dies to help me load cartridges which are showing pretty fair accuracy in my Ruger. One breakthrough for me was getting my hands on an RCBS Cowboy seater die. This allows me to seat oversize lead bullets in cases which have been belled enough at the mouth so that I can seat bullets without any shaving of lead. But the crimping function of the RCBS cowboy seater die doesn't really give a satisfactory crimp.

I have found that the garden variety Lee FCD for .45 Colt allows me to tune the crimp fairly well. It is a roll crimp, so the swaged bullets get a very mild crimp. However, when I switch between the RCBS-270-SAA and Keith bullet the Keith will usually get about an eighth more turn in order to crimp into that ditch they call a crimp groove on that bullet. The RCBS-270-SAA seems to have a more gradually angled crimp groove, and that works very well with the Lee as well, needing about an eighth less turn.

This is where I'm sure I'm misunderstanding you guys: I try to get all my .45 Colt cases uniform in length, so that when bullets are seated before crimping, I'm looking at maybe one sixteenth of an inch (maybe even less) of space below the top of the crimp groove, and then my crimps seem to come out looking very sharp. I don't understand how you can seat bullets in these cases, and not trim them to uniform lengths, and have anything but a mess.

I'm sure you guys are leaving something out, because I realize that you all are very capable and competent reloaders. So, the obstruction is clearly between my own ears. Could you enlighten me as to how the variant on the Lee FCD can make my crimps for the .45 Colt even better ? I'm definitely open to anything that can make my handloads more uniform and professional looking. Thanks guys. - DixieBoy

[Tycer]

My brass is close in length in the 357 and the same in 360 DW, so the difference in where the case mouth hits the crimp groove is not an issue. I shoot .360" diameter bullets and the Lee FCD swages all the bullet that is in the case to something closer to .357". The front driving band is still .360", but with a hard cast, LBT bullet, I get leading and reduced accuracy. Softer bullets obturate fine, but I want zero expansion in an LBT hunting bullet. I know what you mean about the Redding die and the ring. Both 357 Mag and 360 DW require a much firmer crimp than the 45 Colt and the fingers of the collet of the rifle type FCD die should limit both the crimp bulge that challenges one of my guns (the reason for the Redding die) and the swaging effect of the pistol type FCD.

[J Miller]

DixieBoy,
I'll cover two points you made:
A: Over sized bullets. With my Lee FCD I have crimped bullets as large as .456" without any post crimp sizing of the cases. My normal bullets are .4555" so this works out just right. .456" is after all SAAMI spec diameter for the .45 Colt.
The Lee FCD post sizing rings also vary in ID. W30WCF posted the diameter of his in a recent thread and it was different than my two.

B: Case length.
You didn't miss anything, we (I) didn't fill in the blanks.
For Keith bullets, or others with actual crimp groves I use cases that are very close in length to get a consistent crimp.

I quit trimming them years ago when I found that after sizing, trimming, firing and resizing they not only varied in length, most of them had shrunk. Yes they got shorter.

So the bullets like the Lyman 454190, Remington 250gr factory bullets, Hornady 255gr RNFP and others with out a crimp grove get seated in what ever cases are handy. I seat them all the the same COAL then crimp in a separate step.
I leave the lock ring on my crimp die loose and place a witness mark on it for the longest case I can find. The I crimp them by feel.

Tycer,
The Lee pistol type FCD is supposed to be set to post size the case / bullet back to SAAMI max. That is what I have read. The .45 Colt is very generous in that respect so I've not had any trouble with it post sizing what is actually SAAMI spec bullets.
However that 357 Mag and 360 DW with a .360" bullet is over sized so the FCD is doing what it is supposed to do. Just in your case it's unwanted. A quick fix is to pop the sizing ring out of the bottom of the die and just use the crimper.

I'm very interested in your results with the rifle type FCD. I'll be looking for your report.

I'm not sure I agree that the 357/360 needs a firmer crimp than the .45 Colt though. From my loadings there are a number of combos that work much better with a good tight crimp. Not tight such as crushing the case mouth deep into the side of the bullet tight, but tight.

Joe

[DixieBoy]

Tycer and Joe - Thanks guys. Joe, popping the carbide ring out of the bottom of the Lee FCD had not occurred to me. Sounds like a good cheap fix if you don't want your cartridges resized.

At least as far as the Blackhawks in .45 Colt go, my chambers are oversized too. Bought mine about 8 years ago, and opened up the throats so that they'd all be the same dimension as the largest one, which was almost .453". One was .448". Holy Cow ! When I learned about the variance in tolerances in many of these guns it astounded me. But hey, where there's a will there's a way.

With the chambers themselves being oversized, I'll bet removing the carbide ring would be the way to keep that well intentioned (but unwanted) resizing of the brass - and the unwanted swaging of oversized lead bullets - from happening.

For what it's worth, I have taken to neck sizing all of the .45 Colt brass which is fired in my Blackhawk, only letting about 3/8 of an inch at the case mouth be sized. Figure I'll increase case life that way, and get a better chamber fit - enhancing accuracy. I sure don't want to go to all that trouble and have the Lee FCD size 'em right down. The one I'm currently using doesn't touch the brass however, so I'm thinking that the tolerances on this particular die are more generous. Still, I'm going to pop that ring out just to make sure the die does only what I want it to.

Thanks again guys. - DixieBoy

[COSteve]

What I've found (and I realize I've probably loaded far less rounds than many on the forum) is that the 'pistol' type ones they sell are still case-length-sensitive, despite their advertisements, and that they are difficult to adjust to a 'firm-but-gentle' crimp ...

I'm actually puzzled by your comment because I find Lee's FCD for pistols the only brand that is easy to adjust correctly. I use them on my 30 carbine, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, and 10mm and to me they are a snap. All you need to do is back off the adjuster, cycle the ram up to the top, and then while its held there, hand adjust the adjuster down until you feel resistance. Then drop the ram and add a half turn for medium crimp up to a full turn for a heavy crimp. I never trim my brass and have produced well over 100,000rds of my pistol calibers with excellent results from my Lee Deluxe Carbide Pistol Die sets which include their famous FCD.

[J Miller]

Tycer and Joe - Thanks guys. Joe, popping the carbide ring out of the bottom of the Lee FCD had not occurred to me. Sounds like a good cheap fix if you don't want your cartridges resized.

At least as far as the Blackhawks in .45 Colt go, my chambers are oversized too. Bought mine about 8 years ago, and opened up the throats so that they'd all be the same dimension as the largest one, which was almost .453". One was .448". Holy Cow ! When I learned about the variance in tolerances in many of these guns it astounded me. But hey, where there's a will there's a way.

With the chambers themselves being oversized, I'll bet removing the carbide ring would be the way to keep that well intentioned (but unwanted) resizing of the brass - and the unwanted swaging of oversized lead bullets - from happening.

For what it's worth, I have taken to neck sizing all of the .45 Colt brass which is fired in my Blackhawk, only letting about 3/8 of an inch at the case mouth be sized. Figure I'll increase case life that way, and get a better chamber fit - enhancing accuracy. I sure don't want to go to all that trouble and have the Lee FCD size 'em right down. The one I'm currently using doesn't touch the brass however, so I'm thinking that the tolerances on this particular die are more generous. Still, I'm going to pop that ring out just to make sure the die does only what I want it to.

Thanks again guys. - DixieBoy

The original cylinder for my Old Model 45 had chambers that not only varied in diameter, several of them were oval too. The gunsmith that opened them up for me used a regular reamer in a milling machine. This gave me .453?" throats. Better by far than the undersized out of round ones I had to start with, but not optimum.
After that cylinder got pitted by pyrodex I replaced it with a better cylinder and had that one opened up to .4525". Now we got something.

Both cylinders have generous chambers as do my Winchester and Marlin. Even so I always full length size my .45 Colts. And I'm still using cases from the 50s and 60s. I sincerely doubt that neck sizing them increases their life. It "might" increase the accuracy of the load but with 5 guns shooting the same caliber I'm not inclined to segregate brass for each of them.

If you neck size only you can be sure the Lee FCD will size the case body down to SAAMI max or what ever the ID of the sizing ring is.
((I've posted this before but here is a thread I did over at Handloads.com about my first experience with the Lee FCD. Lots of pics too: http://forums.handloads.com/archive/for ... W=J+Miller ))

Joe

[Tycer]

A quick fix is to pop the sizing ring out of the bottom of the die and just use the crimper.

I'm very interested in your results with the rifle type FCD. I'll be looking for your report.

I'm not sure I agree that the 357/360 needs a firmer crimp than the .45 Colt though. From my loadings there are a number of combos that work much better with a good tight crimp. Not tight such as crushing the case mouth deep into the side of the bullet tight, but tight.

Joe

Pop the ring out. Well duhhhh, I shoulda thunk that. Good idea Joe.

You are probably right on the Colt loadings too Joe, the only loadings for a 45 I've done were old spec, not some of the more modern loadings.

[AJMD429]

. . . I find Lee's FCD for pistols the only brand that is easy to adjust correctly. I use them on my 30 carbine, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, and 10mm and to me they are a snap. All you need to do is back off the adjuster, cycle the ram up to the top, and then while its held there, hand adjust the adjuster down until you feel resistance. Then drop the ram and add a half turn for medium crimp up to a full turn for a heavy crimp. I never trim my brass and have produced well over 100,000rds of my pistol calibers with excellent results from my Lee Deluxe Carbide Pistol Die sets which include their famous FCD.

I think this shows how different reloaders experiences vary, and how sometimes whatever we're using, we'll likely get the knack of using it to produce great reloads. I may have had a die with a defective carbide 'ring', for instance, as the darned thing kept 'sticking' on cases and I'd have to use serious force to pull the case back OUT of the die, even when set for very minimal crimp. Then when I tried the 'rifle' type on .32-20, it wound up working well for me, so I just gave up on the 'pistol' type.

One of the cool things about these forums is that we can compare experiences and so on, and see how others have fared or what tricks they've learned...

I don't know what the demand-level is, but if RanchDog found it worthwhile to order/sell them, evidently a fair number of other reloaders have come to similar conclusions as me. Since I've not really talked to them, I don't know if their experiences are similar, or they have more (or less) sophisticated reasons for wanting the 'rifle' type, or what. It would be interesting to know their experiences, or any of the others on this forum who try the 'rifle' ones.

If you neck size only you can be sure the Lee FCD will size the case body down to SAAMI max or what ever the ID of the sizing ring is.

((I've posted this before but here is a thread I did over at Handloads.com about my first experience with the Lee FCD. Lots of pics too: http://forums.handloads.com/archive/for ... W=J+Miller ))

That is a VERY good point that may affect the .44 Mag and .45 Colt in particular, since many of us seem to have to load 'oversize' bullets in them due to the bizarre and seemingly sloppy over-diameter bores on leverguns in those chamberings. I like your "thinking outside the box" idea of taking out the sizer-ring...

Anyway, I really will try to do a mini range-report when I do get the dies (they should ship this month) and get to using them a bit (before deer season I hope...!).

The thing that surprises ME is that the .32-20 cases seemed to be less damaged by the 'prong' type crimp than the ordinary 'roll' ones... I still can't explain that, or even verify it with large numbers of reloaded cases (yet, anyway )

[J Miller]

Well, I'm sometimes a sucker for a new tool. Especially if I think it might speed up my production a bit. So I just went to Ranch Dog and ordered one of the rifle type .45 Colt FCDs. Been thinking about since you started this thread and I realized Ranch Dog already had them made up.

We shall see how they work. I can do a comparison between both types in the same caliber. Cool idea but now I really got to go empty some brass.

Joe

[Sixgun]

What I've found (and I realize I've probably loaded far less rounds than many on the forum) is that the 'pistol' type ones they sell are still case-length-sensitive, despite their advertisements, and that they are difficult to adjust to a 'firm-but-gentle' crimp ...

I'm actually puzzled by your comment because I find Lee's FCD for pistols the only brand that is easy to adjust correctly. I use them on my 30 carbine, 357mag, 40s&w, 45acp, and 10mm and to me they are a snap. All you need to do is back off the adjuster, cycle the ram up to the top, and then while its held there, hand adjust the adjuster down until you feel resistance. Then drop the ram and add a half turn for medium crimp up to a full turn for a heavy crimp. I never trim my brass and have produced well over 100,000rds of my pistol calibers with excellent results from my Lee Deluxe Carbide Pistol Die sets which include their famous FCD.

Doc,
I'm with Steve. I must have 25 of those Lee FCD dies and everyone is headache free. I even use the 30-30 for 32 Spl. I use the 38-40 for the 40-65 and the 40-82 and only have to slide over a copper ring over the subject case so the contact can be made to swage. The same is done with a 45-70 die for the 45-90.

I've had Lee make me up several. I just sent them a dummy case, some money and the die came home in a couple of weeks.

Froma guy who has been loading cast bullets a llllloooooonnnnngggggg time, these Lee FCD dies have been a blessing, especially when using non-standard bullets in the 38-40, 44-40, 32-20 and the 25-20.-------------------Sixgun

[COSteve]

I think AJMD429's last post shows he's on to something. Many here do use larger diameter cast bullets to get good performance and taking out the sizing ring from the FCD would remove any hindrances to larger diameter cast bullets. Your FCD will then only what you bought it for, to give you a factory crimp. In truth, none of my reloading is done with cast bullets so none have oversize diameters which would account for my never seeing any of the issues some of you have reported. Further, I've never felt any cases drag on the sizing ring in any of my FCDs.

[J Miller]

I ordered one of the Lee rifle type FCDs in .45 Colt last week. Got it today. After I scrounge something to eat I'll go see how (if) it works.

Joe