Black powder in the Burgess

[perry owens]

Took my Uberti Burgess to a CAS match at the weekend, its first outing with BP loads. I had misgivings about BP in .45Colt and my worst fears were realized - blowby was terrible:

I had used different makes of brass to see if any one brand was better than others, top to bottom are Winchester, PMC, Remington, Starline. In some cases even the base of the case was sooted up.
By the end of the match the inside of the receiver resembled a coal cellar so when I got it home I decided on a complete strip and clean.
The user manual is obsessed with safety and only has a parts list and tiny exploded view, no disassembly hints at all.
Surprisingly it all came apart pretty easily, with only the lever detent ball and spring wanting to go into orbit if you let them.
The major sub assemblies look like this

Pretty close to the original design but with a trigger block safety. The firing pin has a U-bend in the middle to clear the toggle link.
I have written up some disassembly instructions, complete with an exploded drawing and parts list. I don't know how to post a .pdf on Photobucket so if anyone wants a copy please pm me.
Perry owens

[J Miller]

Perry,

What powder charge and bullet weight were you using? All that soot tells me the pressure wasn't up high enough to expand the cases.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

.45 Colt is like that.

Anneal and neck size cases, use GOOD powder (not el-cheapo stuff) and a stout bit of compression, use 250 grain bullets.

[Pitchy]

That`s why i stick to my smoke poles with black, just ain`t worth the hassel for me cleaning the levers.

[Lefty Dude]

If the piece were chambered in 44WCF you would have no problem.

The 1873 and the Burgess were not chambered for the 45LC for this very reason, also the original 45 Colt case had a smaller diameter case rim which would cause extraction issues.

[J Miller]

I have shot black powder out of my .45 Colt rifles. The cases were nowhere near that bad. But I was shooting 40grs of 3F under a 250gr bullet too.

Use R-P brass only, it's a thinner and expands better than Winchester, Federal or Starline.
Anneal the brass if you want.
Beg, buy, barter or steal an old style steel sizing die. Or neck size it.
Make sure you got black powder compatible lube.
Make sure you got some compression on the powder.
Use 250gr bullets.

Oh and if that don't work, bring it over here and I'll help you with it .

Joe

[Griff]

Anneal case mouths, or actually about a 1/3 of the way down the case. Or, use a stouter load, more filler. Since it's a straight wall case, the manufacturer's seem to want to make the chambers very generously sized.

The original .45 Colt cases were folded copper, had NO extraction groove, and were very soft... the cartridge sealed the chamber very well, and the cylinder gap allowed escaping gases to vent there, rather than try to flow back around the case thru the chamber.


I actually only use about a 1/2 to 2/3rds full case of powder, (usually Goex Cartridge, but I'll be changing that shortly), a 225gr bullet with a nice deep crimp groove, then crimp tightly.

My cases don't look all that differently than guys using .44-40s. I'd do a chamber cast, and then, if I could, I'd designate some cases to be only used in that rifle, and only neck-size.

[Ben_Rumson]

BP worked good in pistols... It should work good in a rifle too... How was the accuracy BTW?... I remember how well that thing printed with smokeless, which was great!

[Ben_Rumson]

BP worked good in pistols... It should work good in a rifle too... How was the accuracy BTW?... I remember how well that thing printed with smokeless, which was great!

[perry owens]

Perry,

What powder charge and bullet weight were you using? All that soot tells me the pressure wasn't up high enough to expand the cases.

Joe

35grains FFg under a 250grain RNFP Big Lube bullet. Compression about 1/8in. It's hard to get any BP except cheap own-brand from one importer. It's so dirty I think he cuts it with coal dust. I can get some Swiss but it's a 200 mile round trip.
I will try annealing and neck sizing. The nice thing about shooting BP is that there's always something else to try.
Perry Owens

[J Miller]

35grs under a 250 should do the trick.

OK, here is where I am sticking my neck out. Somewhere I read a thread where the poster suggested or told about sifting out what he called the "fines". He used a mesh screen that wouldn't allow the actual powder granules to pass through, but would allow all the powdery fine stuff to pass.
Said that made the powder shoot cleaner and more consistently. I really have no idea where I read that though. And I've never done it.

Good luck with your project.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Perry, On the CAS City boards, there is a fellow from England who annealed his cases (top 1/3 or so) and only neck sizes fired cases. He loads BP (I believe for a Marlin) in .45 Colt and ended up with really good results that way. Yes Swiss would be better, but even the cheap stuff can be improved upon. Maybe a drop tube to compact the bottom half of the charge, and compression on top to boot?

A poor man's drop tube is a copper basin supply tube from your plumbing supply (most often bright plated copper). It will be straight on one end, and have a bulb-ish shaped bit on the other, about 24-30" long. Use a fired case to drop powder into the bulb end, catch it in the case yer loading on the other..... Ought to cost no more than a couple of pounds.

[Old Savage]

OK you shot the black - now use a powder that just works - better for the cases and the rifle.

[w30wcf]

Perry,
The pards have given good advice. Here's a pic of a loaded .45 Colt case that as been annealed and neck sized and another that as been fired in my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle.



Old Savage,
Believe it or not, it is hard to beat the groups produced by the the proper b.p. loads in my 38, 44-40 and 45 Colt lever guns with smokeless......and b.p. is faster to clean as well!

w30wcf

[M. M. Wright]

As somebody already said, shoulda bought the 44-40. Try the drop tube for cleaner burning and greater accuracy. Made mine from an old aluminum arrow shaft with a funnel taped to the top. About 24" of shaft from one spoiled by a deer stopping it with his body. And the lube is SOOO important. Use SPG or you can make your own from toilet bowl waxes and olive oil. Also, season the gun metal with either olive oil or Ballistol. Petroleum products just won't stand the temperatures generated by black powder.
You won't the difference the drop tube makes. If, for some reason, you need to dump the powder from the case you will need to break it up with a tool as it packs it in very tight.

[perry owens]

Lots of good tips here guys, thank you. I am familiar with annealing and drop tubes from my other calibres and will try them on .45 Colt. I would have got a 44-40 but they are not available over here so I am going to have to make this work. I have to use BP for CAS because I shoot Frontier class but for everything else I will use smokeless.
Perry Owens

[Nath]

Hope you get this sorted Perry. To many folk give up on BP!

My go to lube is melted beef fat and olive oil. Oil the hinge points as normal but coat everything else in that stuff and nowt'twill' rust. Some candle wax added will make a good bullet lube too.

N.