.~.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:59 pm

I never could figure that one out, Joe. Nothing interests me less.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:14 pm

For me it was a faze i went thru, just to see what i was like. Then I picked up a new fad: T/C Contenders and Lever actions in old, obsolete and inaccurate cartridges

Only about 1/4 of the way thru it so far

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:16 pm

Maybe BP shooters are anachronisms!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:35 pm

Cuz it's fun. Ain't that why we shoot what we shoot. I doubt there are many here who need to hunt to survive, yet many of us hunt. And, fewer still will ever need a firearm to survive, yet most of us shoot.

Personally, I love that stinky cloud. It sure makes me appreciate how easy we have it with modern firearms and ammunition.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:54 pm

I don't shoot b/p.
I do have one, just in case.

stew71 · Post by **stew71** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:01 pm

1) It's old.
2) It's different.
3) No background check/ATF anal probe...so far.
4) No waiting period.....so far.

That's all I have at the moment.

guido4198 · Post by **guido4198** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:10 pm

Excellent question....not sure I have an answer for you...or for myself for that matter.
I've enjoyed both "traditional" muzzleloaders and black powder cartridge shooting from old-style, and more modern arms for several decades. They're "in the mix" of things I enjoy shooting...my interests in all of them tend to wax and wane...shifting over time for no obvious reason other than my whim @ that moment. I'd not call it an "infatuation" in my case...just another way to enjoy myself.

SO FAR....it's still my FREE CHOICE.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:14 pm

Because they're retarded. I can't imagine why anyone would shot anything other than a 30/06, 22LR, or 12 guage. And while we're at it, why does anyone still use leather when Kydex does it all?

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:21 pm

Joe,
For me it's like stepping back in time and walking in the steps of those that have gone before us.........
Just yesterday, I was testing two, new to me, black powders in the 44-40, Kik 1 1/2FG and 2FG and Diamondback 2F and 3F.

Believe it or not, the right b.p. load combinations will group better than my best smokeless loads in my .357, 44-40 amd 45 Colt rifles for 50+ rounds....no cleaning in between either!

w30wcf

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:30 pm

Jose...I'll try to give a few reasons for me...

It's not just the smell of primal fire & brimstone, it's the unique voice that only BP speaks with. Perhaps, it is a connection with our ancestors & a more simple time.

Every time I fire one at the range I get a crowd of shooters wanting to know what it's like. I load it up & let them fly at least once. Always a big grin & hopefully a new world opens up to them.

Much of our modern world has lost Woodsmanship, Survivalism & learning to be an Outdoorsman & Sportsman. Though lost on much of urban society, simple skills are treasured by people like me. (Pitchy is a living example of Firefox which I adore). Being self sustaining, even living in the wild in a makeshift shelter made with your own hands.

Some late info... some people back east are selling much of what they own, loading up the car & driving west. They are finding some BLM land & homesteading: just like in the 1800's. Homestead & simple living magazines are on the rise. Check it out for yourself on the net. They are making claims & doing the required improvements to patent the claims & living a simpler & more fulfilling life. Grow, raise, fish & hunt for your own food. Living G-D's way. The way of Faith...

BP is just one of the advantages. No cartridges, just gun powder, ball & cap. It doesn't get any simpler unless you go in for traditional archery (which I do). Shotguns are just as effective & darn near perfect for game getting.

If you're the methodical type...make your own powder. Have to be careful though, some have lost their hands (or lives) because they are in a rush.

Rick Hacker (the old gunwriter) shot nothing but BP for decades. He always looked well fed to me. Same with Phil Spangenburger. Met him at the old Sands antique gun show in Las Vegas in the early 80's several times. Quite a guy, believe me.

If the bad times happens, the BP gunner is going to be in a whole lot better shape after a couple of yrs.

The appeal of 3000fps lost it's luster 45 yrs ago when I found out that a 30 WCF cast load would go through a deer like so much air. Energy, shmenergy....just isn't true. Oh...the deer took 3 steps & keeled over. Tasted great!

Hope that helps...Mie Amigo

LB

rimrock · Post by **rimrock** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:35 pm

Some of us just enjoy playing with fire. Works well with the bigger, slower theory of launching bullets.

rimrock

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:19 pm

Elk at 300 yards with an 06 and a 3x9 scope is meat in the freezer. A bow, handgun, flintlock put the "hunt" back in it. Still trying to take a turkey with the blunderbuss. had to pass up 40 yard shots that would have been meat in the pan for the 31/2" 12 gauge.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:28 pm

airedaleman wrote:Maybe BP shooters are anachronisms!

I like the smell.

I like shooting something 'primitive' yet using a 'high explosive' the LibTards would love to ban.

BUT I'm not all that sure some SR-4759 and 5744 loads don't do the same thing physically without the corrosion issues.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:09 pm

For one thing nothing offers the smell that black powder does. BP seems to give you a chance to become more intimate with your arms. If you're shooting a patched round ball you will find out in short order just what can be done with them and not feel a bit undergunned or at a disadvantage.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:10 pm

Let's one shoot period pieces that are challenging to load with smokeless powders just due to the metalurgy of the day.

And the other reasons mentioned!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:19 pm

J Miller wrote:...for the stinky, smelly, messy, corrosive, charcoal based stuff called black powder.
Why does it still hold our affection? Why do we shoot it from modern guns when we don't have to?
I'm not picking on anybody cos I shoot it too sometimes. I'm just curious. I could go the rest of my life and never shoot another round of it. But I won't.
Just wondering out loud.
Joe

Corrosive, at least that part of your premise is wrong. The corrosive part is due to a lack of cleanliness, and since the advent of non-corrosive primers, even that is greatly reduced! Stinky & smelly are surely in the nose of the individual. And, messy? I probably spill far less BP in my reloading than smokeless.

Yes, the best answer may well be that is is part & parcel of a simpler time, when riflemen overcame several obstacles to good shooting that smokeless did away with for us. The challenge of doing it with the same obstacles is often a fierce motivator. I have no doubt that if allowed therre'd be a group of cyclists that would attempt the Tour de France on bikes from 1903.

Anachronisms.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:26 pm

It speaks to the ancient in me. BP, though not in cartridge form, suits me. My flintlock is my favorite firearm, it has taken all sorts of game for me and more deer than any other firearm I have ever owned. Between my bow and the flintlock, they sooth all that stirs in me.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:31 pm

Leverbob,
As far as I know, there is currently in existence a moratorium on patening claims.
If you know differently, I would like to know.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:52 pm

It's the same reason so many are drawn to a steam engine.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:54 pm

'Cause as long as you have rocks & Iron, with BP (easily made) you have a gun...

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:01 pm

Black Powder has been "calling me" for a long time. I even had a modern Colt Army 44 and never shot it before I sold it. Beautiful gun.

I really should give it a chance--in my 45-70 lever gun.

Would someone run that "keeping them clean and free of rust is no big problem" argument by me one more time?

Don

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:09 pm

Not from me, I know how hard it is.
Some years ago we had a discussion here simular to this one.
It led to my admitted affection to bows, as I opined that as long as I had a bow; I could obtain a modern firearm.
That led to a bow being gifted to me by a forum member, and a lifelong friendship with this person, although we have never met.
I keep coming back to this place because, here; I have met some of the finest people in the world.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:51 pm

Well, it's like this. If ya never have touched off a cylinder full of rounds from a Colt (or clone) '51, ''60, '61, or '62 revolver, ya just ain't livin right. Run a few rounds shooting from under a tin roof at twilight for a good show of lightning and thunder. Drop the hammer on a percussian derringer or .50 cal Hawken ya made from a department store kit (time was you could buy both of em for under $100, with enough left for sandpaper and tung oil) and you will begin to understand. Fire a Rolling Block in .50-70, launching an ounce of lead with a rifle sneaking up on 150 yrs old if that don't help ya get a clue. If none of the above puts a smile on yer face, yer dead.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:04 pm

getitdone1 wrote:Black Powder has been "calling me" for a long time. I even had a modern Colt Army 44 and never shot it before I sold it. Beautiful gun.

I really should give it a chance--in my 45-70 lever gun.

Would someone run that "keeping them clean and free of rust is no big problem" argument by me one more time?

Don

It's actually EASIER to clean a gun that has been shot with BP than one running smokeless. The only problem is, ya actually DO have to clean em. A tea kettle of boiling water, a few rag scraps, a cleaning rod and a bottle of Ballistol, and yer in like flynn. DO get all the nitro-based crud and all the petroleum-based lubes OUT of the gun before shooting BP, or you will wish you had. But once well cleaned, seasoned with Ballistol (bore butter where grease is best) and ya got a gun that will come clean in no time after a day of burning charcoal. When I ran BP in my Marlin, I got so I could tear it down, clean it, and reassemble it in about 15 minutes. MY Ruger Vaqueros RARELY saw a tear down cleaning. I'd pull the cylinders, douse them and the barrel with very hot water, wipe em out, oil em up with ballistol and be ready for another day's shooting in under 10 minutes.

My wife's little '62 Pocket Navy Colt (clone) cleans up in about 10 minutes, including pulling the nipples and cleaning the gun and the cylinder. That gun was stored in a sporadically heated workshop all winter, and has ZERO issues, as it was put to bed with a thin film of bore butter on every bit of it (just wiped it with a rag with bore butter on it). It isn't hard to do.

Now, the OTHER end of this discussion is of course the ultimate RKBA handgun. It is a LOT harder to confiscate/regulate, control or limit a gun that has no more paper trail than a claw hammer......

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:07 pm

I only shoot black out of my Ruger OA, TC Hawken and Shiloh Sharps. Obviously the Ruger and the TC were made for BP. The Shiloh I like trying to put together accurate loads with BP because of the challenge. I have, but don't shoot BP out of my Colt SAA's anymore. I'm to OC to shoot BP out of them because I can't stand not totally cleaning them after shooting.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:09 pm

I LOVE the smell of black powder in the morning!

Hard as diamonds finding BP here in the islands so I used Pyrodex mainly though in the end before I sold my last muzzle-loader I was using Triple-7 pellets. I got spoiled using Triple-7 pellets.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:37 pm

airedaleman wrote:Maybe BP shooters are anachronisms!

yeah baby.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:48 pm

Mescalero wrote:Leverbob,
As far as I know, there is currently in existence a moratorium on patening claims.
If you know differently, I would like to know.

Please explain....

LB

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:56 pm

Some years ago the moratorium was lifted, but congress never appropiated funds for processing patents.
So we have a catch 22,
you can apply for a patent, legally;
but the BLM does not have funding for processing them,
so they do not get processed.
Interesting way we do buisiness in this country.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:09 pm

OOOhhhhh, I get it!

A Paten is a plate used in the Eucharist in the roman Catholic Church. It is also "something that is self evident". Sorry, I misread your post.

You refered to a "patent" of a claim...I haven't heard of any such moritorium on such claims. If you have more info I would be glad to listen. I only reported what I read in a news article.

If I'm misinformed, I withdraw that part of my statement.

Best to you Mesc...

LB

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:21 pm

'Cause my Springfield model 1873 Trapdoor (made in 1875) does not shoot well with smokeless. Deep rifling requires .461+ hollow base bullets made from nothing harder than 20-1 lead, BP was the only substance that consistantly worked.

Timothy · Post by **Timothy** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:34 pm

For me its a combination of being the only one i know who does it, being historic, feeling like im in a louis lamour novel, and contempt for modern society.

Mac in Mo · Post by **Mac in Mo** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:13 am

I don't shoot it in my cartridge guns but love to burn it in my muzzle loaders. I love the smell, love the great cloud of white smoke that rolls out and the thunderous boom when I press the trigger on my Lyman GP rifle. I also get great satisfaction from cleanly killing deer with a .54 round ball. I am the only one in my group who uses side lock percussion guns. I am also the only one who hasn't had a failure to fire or other glitch that cost me an animal. The other guys who own the modern in-lines all used to scoff at my old style guns, until the shooting match was over and I out shot all of them.
I guess the same holds true for the BPC shooters. Also, there is the axiom" If you have to ask, you will never understand".

Kevin

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:01 am

I can see where the cleaning would be easier and more complete with a single shot than a repeater.

Maybe that's where the Springfield and the 50-70 come-in--for me.

I'm curious about that black powder smell. Also, isn't black powder louder than smokeless with equally stout loads? How's the sound differ other than loudness?

Don

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:39 am

BECAUSE I CAN

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:10 am

I like the recoil characteristics of black powder as well as the smell of the cloud it makes..

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:44 am

Kinda like riding Harley-Davidson, and like someone said: "If you have to ask, you'll never understand."

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:23 am

I enjoy muzzleloaders. I can't see using blackpowder in cartridge guns unless it's required by the rules of some of the matches they are used in.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:27 am

I dont like cleaning up after shooting black powder....
What a stinkin' mess..
I do hunt with a modern in-line...one or two weekends a year.
took a few nice deer and a huge hog with it...

but just to go to the range and shoot black powder for fun....nope..
I sight it in just before the season....and thats it..
and my current levers will never see it either....

Now if i could get a hold of an old sharps rifle I might change my tune...

SASS has a class where they shoot black powder and it looks like a pretty good time...
but i bet they hope the winds blows a little bit!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:59 am

RIHMFIRE wrote:SASS has a class where they shoot black powder and it looks like a pretty good time...
but i bet they hope the winds blows a little bit!

Yep, just ask our own Griff.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:19 am

RIHMFIRE wrote:SASS has a class where they shoot black powder and it looks like a pretty good time...
but i bet they hope the winds blows a little bit!

Actually, you can use BP in any SASS category. In fact, a .36 cal C&B revolver is legal in "Classic Cowboy," where your cartridge six-shooter must be at least .40 caliber. There are currently two official SASS BP categories:

FRONTIER CARTRIDGE
• Any Main Match fixed sight model revolver.
• Revolvers may be shot two handed or one handed (duelist style).
• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).
• Must use a side-by-side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages.
• Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable.
• Frontier Cartridge Duelist is also recognized with all requirements being the same except
the Duelist and Double Duelist shooting styles are used. See Duelist description for the
required shooting technique(s).
NOTE: Frontier Cartridge competitors may use any SASS–legal firearms and propellants
in team and side matches.

and,

FRONTIERSMAN
• Any Main Match percussion revolver with non-adjustable sights (Note exceptions listed re:
dovetailed sights). (Exception: The 1873 Uberti percussion revolver is not allowed. )
• Revolvers must be shot duelist or double duelist style. See Duelist description for required
shooting technique.
• Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun).
• Must use a side-by-side or lever action shotgun in the main match stages.
• Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable.

Although not specifically stated, Frontiersmen may also use smokeless powder and cartridge arms in team and side matches where allowed. (Exception being the Plainsman side match, which is BP specific).

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:27 am

M. M. Wright wrote:Kinda like riding Harley-Davidson."

That's exactly my point.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:56 am

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:28 pm

J Miller wrote:But, I don't ride motorcycles, so I don't have anything to compare it with.

You know when you make this comment: "If you have to ask, you'll never understand.", it makes me wonder if you can't put your own reasons into words, so rather than trying you cut down the asker.

Joe

Joe, it's a feeling ya get, and feelings are more difficult to explain to those who have never experienced them than about anything. Try to explain how a glorious sunset makes ya feel to a blind man, or the feeling ya get with the spray in your face when out on the ocean in "big" water for the first time.....

If ya got a SA revolver, get yerself a danged pound of powder and some appropriately lubed bullets and find out. Otherwise, ya may as well ask "I don't get why people like pizza?" when ya never had pizza.....

I shoot CAS as you know. Lately I've been shooting "Outlaw" style, which means ya shoot the shotgun and the pistols from the hip (rifle may use the sights). If ya never tried it, I couldn't explain it. Next month I plan to shoot a mismatched pair of pistols as well. I'll use a .45 Ruger with smokeless, and the little '62 Pocket navy, .36 cap n ball as the second gun. I'm thinking a good bit of the "penalty" associated with BP, (not being able to see targets after the first shot or two), may be eliminated because the pistol at the hip will allow me to see over the smoke. But in any event, it'll be FUN poppin caps on some Swiss

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:37 pm

Joe,

I don't look at that as a "put-down," it's more like acknowledging a hardwiring difference. My wife just wants her car to start when you turn the key... and I don't mind the occasional need to tinker to get my hot rod to start. In fact, I feel it adds the human character to my car. On my hi-performance 427 I'd often have to dry out the distributor cap & points if the dew point was just right... no biggie for me, but a majoor castastrophe for others. When I get it in the p/u, I'm sure it'll be the same. Some may look at my lowered '55-½ chevy p/u as a pain-in-the-rear, but to me, it's "cool"! Maybe if I say "...if you don't understand, I can't explain it..." sounds less like an insult, but to me, means the same?

Let me add, there's few thrills like mashing the gas on 425 ponies in a 3100lb car with 4:11s and a cloose-ratio 4-speed... makes all the greasy fingernails worth it. When a cop stops ya, and insteada asking for your license & insurance, but asks, "can I see under the hood?" You done good. When I moved to TX. I had that a LOT. When I joined the Sheriff's Dept, when introduced to other cops with the cities in our county, they'd immediately say, "oh, you're the guy with the '55!"

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:49 pm

J Miller wrote:But, I don't ride motorcycles, so I don't have anything to compare it with.

You know when you make this comment: "If you have to ask, you'll never understand.", it makes me wonder if you can't put your own reasons into words, so rather than trying you cut down the asker.

Joe

Now Joe, I only quoted the portion of the post that supported my point (which is mostly tongue in cheek), that using black powder in cartridge guns (another point most missed and began railing about their front loaders) is about as smart as riding a Harley Davidson when so many well engineered good motorcycles are available. Again, my posts on this topic are mostly in jest, agreeing with your initial post completley, and poking fun at the black powder cartridge users.

Regarding the well used "if you have to ask, you'll never understand" statement; I always reply, "go ahead and try to explain it to me" or just chuckle and walk away.

I do, however, understand using black powder for either muzzle loaders or cartridges guns. It's because it's fun and challenging. The same thing goes for riding a Harley, it's fun to ride a piece of history and hang around people who are like minded. As for me, I shot black powder for some time and got very tired of cleaning up after shooting and finally discarded the whole practice. Now when I'm struck with the desire to simplify my shooting, I shoot my single shot rifles and leave the cleaning to more patient men than me. As far as riding a Harley Davidson; I owned and rode one for decades, and on my last ride, with the wind in my face (and bugs and rocks), I decided I'd rather ride in an air conditioned pickup with a windshield and a comfortable seat and sold the shovelhead to highest bidder.

For lazy old soft little me, I understand, but prefer easier and more comfortable.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:51 pm

Griff wrote:Let me add, there's few thrills like mashing the gas on 425 ponies in a 3100lb car with 4:11s and a cloose-ratio 4-speed... makes all the greasy fingernails worth it.

Now, that I understand - big blocks forever!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:33 pm

Joe, all the reasons above are valid personal choices. But the one fact that gives BP an edge over smokeless is the fact that for long range like the BPCR Silhouette game where these guys are shooting out to 600 meters BP is much more accurate.
That game requires bullets in the 500 gr or larger pushed at about 1200 FPS, no more. Big slow bullets like that aren't effected by wind near like faster smaller bullets. But, the load has to be very consistant. Compressed bp loads do that with really low standard deviation. Combined with quality repeatable sights some say they are more accurate than scoped smokeless rifles.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 1:43 pm

Steam locomotive, Harley? No valid analogy there. I have used my share of BP, but no longer. The though of running that stuff through a nice condition 1886 makes me quake in fear. I have done it, and suffered the clean up with hot water, a thousand patches to wipe it clean and the mess of trash in the action. Nope, never more. Smokeless gives me the option to clean, or not to clean. All that is usually done after shooting is to run a bore snake through and fo'get about it.