HEAR YEE, HEAR YEE, READ ABOUT IT, DUAL RING CARBIDE DIE

[J Miller]

OK, do I got your attention?

As a very long time hand loader of the .45 Colt cartridge I've often been frustrated by the fact that the old steel sizing dies leave a bulge towards the bottom of the case body and the carbide dies over size the case sometimes leaving an ugly ring. But I full size because I want all my cases to fit in all my various .45 Colts.

In recent years I've taken to using my old steel die again. It works very well but of course still leaves a bulge towards the bottom of the case.

Then in my minds eye I designed a carbide sizing die with two rings. The one at the bottom would size the case to SAAMI specs and the upper one would size the case down to hold the bullet, but only to the base of the bullet.

Redding beat me to it, or they read my mind, not sure which.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/index. ... rbide-dies
These dies are very expensive, but I AM going to put the money together somehow to buy one.
As far as I'm concerned this die would solve many little problems with the over generous .45 Colt chambers without leaving an unsightly bulge from under sizing, or a ring from over sizing the cases.

I'm gonna get one as soon as I can.

I just thought I'd let you guys know about this cos to be honest it's the first tool I've seen in years that really has me excited and drooling.

Now if just 10 of you guys would buy one cylinder bag each I could do it pretty quick.

Joe

[Griff]

I wonder if the two diameters are tapered... otherwise, wouldn't there be a "step" in the sized case? Neat idea, but @ $139 for a sizer die... hmmm... how much do I "need" one?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

$96.91 at Midway but they're not actually there yet. So new it's not even made yet.

[J Miller]

How much do you need one? I don't know the answer to that question.
I look at from this point of view: Steel dies do not full size the case body and single ring carbide dies over size the body, neither do I like.
It's one of those things that qualify as "The nature of the beast" and you just live with it.
But - with this die those things I do not like should go away.
And since I load 100 rounds of .45 Colt to 1 of anything else, it's worth it to me.
But I'll check Midway and Natchez before I pay full MSRP from Redding.

Joe

$96.91 at Midway but they're not actually there yet. So new it's not even made yet.

Rimfire,
Thanks, that's a lot better than $140.00 from Redding.

Joe

[earlmck]

Dual ring carbide die! Wow! This is an idea that was way overdue for getting into production. And with this dual-ring concept, seems to me they could extend the wonders of carbide to some more cartridges such as 44-40, 38-40, several others. 45-70 comes to mind as one that would get a lot of attention from folks on this forum.

Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Joe.

[AJMD429]

It might cost a whole lot less and do just as good a job to get Lee to make you a Factory Crimp Die (RIFLE type) in .45 Colt. The carbide at the base of the case will size the body to fit all your guns, yet the 'fingers' at the top will close right down around whatever bullet you're using.

The 'pistol' FCD's are different, and don't use the 'fingered' crimping mechanism, and that is what their .45 Colt's are normally set up as. Special ordering the .45 Colt in 'rifle' type is pretty cheap - I think maybe $35 or so.

[FF1063]

I wonder if the two diameters are tapered... otherwise, wouldn't there be a "step" in the sized case? Neat idea, but @ $139 for a sizer die... hmmm... how much do I "need" one?

According to Redding they do.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/online ... rbide-dies

The Lee FCD is different and just crushes everything down to one diameter after the cartridge is complete.

[J Miller]

I wonder if the two diameters are tapered... otherwise, wouldn't there be a "step" in the sized case? Neat idea, but @ $139 for a sizer die... hmmm... how much do I "need" one?

According to Redding they do.
http://www.redding-reloading.com/online ... rbide-dies

The Lee FCD is different and just crushes everything down to one diameter after the cartridge is complete.

In actuality the Lee FCD won't even touch the case if the hand loader had done his case prep and loading steps properly. I've loaded .4555" bullets in my .45 Colt and crimped them with my FCD and the cases were not even touched.

We are also discussing apples and oranges here. The new Redding dual ring carbide sizer is just a sizer and has nothing to do with crimping. The Lee FCD is just a fancy crimp die with a post crimp sizing ring in it.
http://forums.handloads.com/archive/for ... W=J+Miller

Joe

[DixieBoy]

Joe - I saw this while looking around on midway's site at .45 Colt dies. Seems interesting.

Got a question for you, since you're a dedicated .45 Colt guy: have you ever tried improvising something along the lines of a neck-sizing only deal with your full length sizing die ? Perhaps just a regular stopping point when you're raising the ram ?

You're loading for several different .45 Colts, so this may be something that can't help you.

I learned something recently, while going through the fire-lapping process on my beloved Blackhawk, using Marshall Stanton's fire lapping goop and bullets, along with his excellent advice and info from his little booklet.

The cases for lapping the bullets are specifically not to be sized. Okay, they were fired in my one and only Blackhawk, so that worked just fine. But it got me thinking, these cases all fit just fine in the chambers; as a matter of fact they seemed to fit really well. Almost a revolver equivalent of fire-formed. It got me to wondering about only "neck sizing" for the Blackhawk, since my rounds are typically only being fired in my own firearm.

You're right about the Lee Factory Crimp die here. I use them religiously, and if all else has been done correctly during the loading process, they will only crimp the round. If things got out of whack somehow, well, they'll put things back in spec so that you can chamber your rounds without trouble.

Didn't mean to sidetrack your thread, but I wondered about the neck sizing deal. Seems like - as long as rounds were loaded for one specific firearm - that the cases would be perfectly centered in the chambers by doing this. Whatcha think ? - DixieBoy

[J Miller]

DixieBoy,

I have tried neck sizing on several occasions. It works, but as you said your cases were fire formed to your revolver so they may or may not work in another one.
Like I said somewhere above I want all my ammo to fit and function in all my guns of that caliber so, neck sizing except for a limited number of gun specific test loads is contraindicated.

A lot of folks do neck size their .45 brass so it will seal better in their rifle chambers. Especially when they are shooting black powder. I understand this, but what if I want to shoot some out of a different gun?
Ooops, no can do. So we're back to square one.

Some time back I tried an experiment with balloon head cases.
I took the crimper out of a Lee FCD and using an improvised method ran the balloon head cases all the way into the FCD. That fully sized the cases almost all the way to the rim. Much more than a standard die and shell holder. Once that was done I then ran the same case into my old steel die which basically neck sized it. Doing the balloon cases this way prevents the over sizing that is common with carbide dies and the under sizing common with the old steel dies.

This is the same concept I think Redding is using with the dual ring die.
And that's why I "need" one.

Joe

[Pitchy]

Sounds like the ticket but not for one gun like i`m doing, still getting a few bulged cases and them buggers won`t go in that conversion cylinder either.
I`m going to back off that sizer and spin down that de-capper and just neck size.

[DixieBoy]

Joe - Good points you've made here. Too bad you've got so many .45 Colts You could neck size if you only had one like me.
My Blackhawk has been a project gun. Think I'll start a new thread about it, so as not to sidetrack this one. - DixieBoy

[mikld]

You wanna Lee rifle style Factory Crimp Die in .45 Colt? http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.p ... x&cPath=53
On forums where folks talk about Lee Factory Crimp dies, a lot of confusion is injected because Lee makes two distinctly different "Factory Crimp Dies". One, and I find this one nearly worthless, is the straight wall, pistol style factory crimp die, which is a crimp die with a carbide ring for post seating case sizing. My reloading methods have never warrented fixing the case after it's loaded. The other crimp die is the rifle style, this uses a collet to squeeze the case mouth for a crimp, no rolling, no taper swaging. My use of the rifle style is very limited, so I won't comment, but it has many supporters.

As far as a two ring sizer die, I'm open to the idea, but I don't know how much it would benefit me/my reloading .44 Mag./Special (my favorite) or 357/38, 45 ACP, 9mm, 9x18...

[J Miller]

Why is it everybody thinks I or we need the Lee FCD? I do not as I already have two of them for the 45 Colt.

They are not the subject of this thread.
They have nothing to do with this thread.
They are a totally different tool, meant for a totally different function.

The Redding dual ring carbide die is a sizing die only. That's it. It sizes the case just like any other sizing die EXCEPT it does it with two rings and does not over size the body as a normal single ring carbide die does.

Joe

[J Miller]

Joe - Good points you've made here. Too bad you've got so many .45 Colts You could neck size if you only had one like me.
My Blackhawk has been a project gun. Think I'll start a new thread about it, so as not to sidetrack this one. - DixieBoy

Too bad I got so many .45 Colts ...... HAH, I've just gotten started.
There's at least a half dozen more I want.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

Good post Joe.
As for me, I am happy with my set of RCBS carbide dies just the way they are but I guess I just am not as fussy as some.

[J Miller]

Good post Joe.
As for me, I am happy with my set of RCBS carbide dies just the way they are but I guess I just am not as fussy as some.

Chuck,
I don't know why I am the way I am. The .45 Colt was the third cartridge I started loading for and over the years I've just gotten a bit anal about my ammo.
Besides dawgonit, it's an excuse to buy a new tool. Ain't that one those things we guys love to do? I love new tools anyway.

Joe

[mouthpiece]

"These dies are very expensive,"

$100- $139? That's not, " expensive", it's immoral.

[J Miller]

"These dies are very expensive,"

$100- $139? That's not, " expensive", it's immoral.

Sigh, even though I agree with you, I'm still gonna buy one.

Joe

[mikld]

It might cost a whole lot less and do just as good a job to get Lee to make you a Factory Crimp Die (RIFLE type) in .45 Colt. The carbide at the base of the case will size the body to fit all your guns, yet the 'fingers' at the top will close right down around whatever bullet you're using."

Why is it everybody thinks I or we need the Lee FCD? I do not as I already have two of them for the 45 Colt.

They are not the subject of this thread.
They have nothing to do with this thread.
They are a totally different tool, meant for a totally different function.

The Redding dual ring carbide die is a sizing die only. That's it. It sizes the case just like any other sizing die EXCEPT it does it with two rings and does not over size the body as a normal single ring carbide die does.

Joe

Mr. Miller,
The first quote above is the only reason I posted a reply. Ranchdog supplies rifle style Lee Factory Crimp Dies in 45 Colt...

[J Miller]

It might cost a whole lot less and do just as good a job to get Lee to make you a Factory Crimp Die (RIFLE type) in .45 Colt. The carbide at the base of the case will size the body to fit all your guns, yet the 'fingers' at the top will close right down around whatever bullet you're using."

Why is it everybody thinks I or we need the Lee FCD? I do not as I already have two of them for the 45 Colt.

They are not the subject of this thread.
They have nothing to do with this thread.
They are a totally different tool, meant for a totally different function.

The Redding dual ring carbide die is a sizing die only. That's it. It sizes the case just like any other sizing die EXCEPT it does it with two rings and does not over size the body as a normal single ring carbide die does.

Joe

Mr. Miller,
The first quote above is the only reason I posted a reply. Ranchdog supplies rifle style Lee Factory Crimp Dies in 45 Colt...

Sigh ...... one last time: The Lee FCD has nothing to do with this thread. NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING - NOT ONE D.A.M.N. THING - ZIP - ZILTCH - NADA.
I am speaking strictly about a sizing die here. Nothing else.

J e

[earlmck]

"These dies are very expensive,"

$100- $139? That's not, " expensive", it's immoral.

Sigh, even though I agree with you, I'm still gonna buy one.

Joe

Redding is pretty proud of their dies: I'd own more of them if they priced 'em about 30 to 50% less. But they make some stuff that if you need it bad enough it is really good that it is available.

If you are like me you own a fair number of dies that don't even get used on an annual basis. So a die that you would use many times per year, if you amortize it on a per use or per cartridge basis, could be "very expensive" and still be cheap on the per use basis in comparison to cheaper dies we seldom use. That's good "levernut logic", isn't it?

[J Miller]

"These dies are very expensive,"

$100- $139? That's not, " expensive", it's immoral.

Sigh, even though I agree with you, I'm still gonna buy one.

Joe

Redding is pretty proud of their dies: I'd own more of them if they priced 'em about 30 to 50% less. But they make some stuff that if you need it bad enough it is really good that it is available.

If you are like me you own a fair number of dies that don't even get used on an annual basis. So a die that you would use many times per year, if you amortize it on a per use or per cartridge basis, could be "very expensive" and still be cheap on the per use basis in comparison to cheaper dies we seldom use. That's good "levernut logic", isn't it?

Exactly. Above somewhere I mentioned I load probably 100 .45 Colts for every 1 of any other caliber I shoot. So even though this Redding die is very expensive it will be used a lot. So although I'm going to have to save up to buy this die, the initial cost does not bother me much.

As a matter of thought I have extra die sets I've accumulated and never use that I could probably sell to help fund this new one.

Joe

[BigSky56]

Hornady dies have a sizing ring that goes to the rim no bulge I think their 30$, when you throw out a question or idea to a problem your having people will give their suggestions and ideas gleen what you need and enjoy life its short for all of us. danny

[Mescalero]

What extra's do you have Joe?

[J Miller]

303 Brit
30-30
Old Redding 38 Spcl
Got 3 .45 Colt die sets, but they're gonna stay at least for now.

Joe

[mikld]

It might cost a whole lot less and do just as good a job to get Lee to make you a Factory Crimp Die (RIFLE type) in .45 Colt. The carbide at the base of the case will size the body to fit all your guns, yet the 'fingers' at the top will close right down around whatever bullet you're using."

Why is it everybody thinks I or we need the Lee FCD? I do not as I already have two of them for the 45 Colt.

They are not the subject of this thread.
They have nothing to do with this thread.
They are a totally different tool, meant for a totally different function.

The Redding dual ring carbide die is a sizing die only. That's it. It sizes the case just like any other sizing die EXCEPT it does it with two rings and does not over size the body as a normal single ring carbide die does.

Joe

Mr. Miller,
The first quote above is the only reason I posted a reply. Ranchdog supplies rifle style Lee Factory Crimp Dies in 45 Colt...

Sigh ...... one last time: The Lee FCD has nothing to do with this thread. NOTHING - NOTHING - NOTHING - NOT ONE D.A.M.N. THING - ZIP - ZILTCH - NADA.
I am speaking strictly about a sizing die here. Nothing else.

J e

Are you really sure you don't want a Factory Crimp die? According to thier fans they are the best thing to come down the pike since sliced bread. BTW, I only answered AJMD429 post about a collet die for 45 Colt (Hmmm, remind me to stay away from Mr. Miller's topics ).

[J Miller]

Are you really sure you don't want a Factory Crimp die? According to thier fans they are the best thing to come down the pike since sliced bread. BTW, I only answered AJMD429 post about a collet die for 45 Colt (Hmmm, remind me to stay away from Mr. Miller's topics ).

You don't have to stay away from my topics, just read them and don't try to derail them. I really do not know why or where the Lee FCD came into this thread, but it doesn't have any thing to do with it. And that is why I've said what I said. And although I used your post to make the above blue comment it was directed at everyone, not just you.
And yes, I am very sure I do not want any more Lee FCD's, I already have three of them. I am quite educated in their functions and uses and have even come up with some Lee hasn't thought of. But in this case they have no bearing on the thread subject.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Thank you for the info. Interesting. IO I too have been neck sizing my .45 Colt brass since the late 1970's and am very fortunate that my two 45 Colt Rugers and .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy rifle have identically sized chambers and neck sized cartridges will fit all of them. The one exception is a Uberti .45 that has slightly tighter chambers and, so I use different headstamped brass in it.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

Some years ago I had three Enfields chambered for 303 British. A British No4 Mk1, a Canadian No4 Mk1*, and an British No5 Mk1 Jungle Carbine. All were shooters and of course their chambers were not the same.
The British No4 would chamber in the Canadian No4, and the No 5.
The No 5 would not chamber in the British No4 but would in the Canadian.
Neither the of the No4s would chamber in the No 5.
And the Canadian would not chamber in either of the others.
Confused yet?
Well, in order to help my brass live a bit longer I segregated it, some for each rifle. To do that I had to mark and change the adjustment on my sizing die for each rifle. That was it pain in the neck.
Segregating the brass worked out fine as long as I remembered to bring the right ammo for the right rifle.
Of course you know it finally happened. I had lots of ammo to shoot, but it would not fit the rifle I brought. I was NOT happy.

So when I got home I figured out which rifle had the shortest/smallest chamber and adjusted my full size die to just touch the shoulder when sizing. I then pulled all the other ammo down, pulled the decapper out of the sizer and ran the cases in the die. Put them all back together and had NO MORE problems with segregated cases not fitting.
This was the beginning of my insistence that every round I load MUST fit every gun of that caliber I shoot.

Back to our regular scheduled program.

W30WCF,
I'm not sure where my .45 Colt chambers are size wise. I know the Ruger BH is generous as is my Marlin, but I think the Win 94AE Trapper has the biggest. My Uberti Cattleman has the smallest with the S&W 25-5 next smallest.
So you can see I'm all over the place.
Hense this new Redding die will make my life much more simpler.

Joe