Extra 200 fps--who cares?

[getitdone1]

I've read for years about lots of cartridges being greatly improved since they shoot the bullet 2-300 fps faster than the older cartridge.

That used to mean something to me, but no more. If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. And, I'll receive a little less muzzle blast and recoil. Also save a little money.

Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

[J Miller]

Don,

I agree with you for the most part. Especially with regards to the AI rifle cartridges. The couple hundred FPS isn't going to matter in the long run.

The newer Hornady gummy tip rounds with their alleged velocity improvements don't impress me any either. Just another gimmick to sell to those who like gimmicks.

Where a couple hundred FPS will help is with the old handgun cartridges such as the 44 SPCL and .45 Colt. Add to the extra velocity a good Keith bullet and you got a major improvement.


J e

[AJMD429]

Where a couple hundred FPS will help is with the old handgun cartridges such as the 44 SPCL and .45 Colt. Add to the extra velocity a good Keith bullet and you got a major improvement.

Yep. Placement and Bullet Construction trump Velocity, at least when the percentage increase is not all that great, especially with rifles.

I have a .280 Rem and it just isn't "inferior" enough to the 7mm Rem Mag that I can get all that excited about the few inches in trajectory difference.

Now, if you're talking going from 2,400 fps to 3,400 fps - that's a difference.

[El Chivo]

I remember the explosive effect of .357 @ 1400 fps on water-filled cans and jugs, vs. the disappointing effect of 30-30 at 2000, just in and out. I think a little "dwell time" can help. That extra velocity is for long shots, but if you anticipate 100 yard shots I agree - who cares?

My sweet-spot tends to be a little short of the max, and I'd rather go with them. I also like to come up with light loads for silhouette, why get rattled in a match?

[44/40]

+1 - Leverguns.com, where common sense abounds ! Except for that gun over there that I didn't know I "needed"......

[Old Savage]

I would have to say "it depends" - on the situation.

[Griff]

I tend to agree. But, maybe it's for a slightly different reason. I've only really played with 3 cartridges, trying to wring the most accuracy out of them. But, in each case, the maximum velocity attainable from a given powder/bullet combination is so very seldom the most accurate loading as to make me feels it's more of a rule than simple coincidence. As my loading mentor used to tell me when I was experimenting, run up your loads until you either see signs of excess pressure or your groups start to open up. I can only think of one or two loads where groups didn't open up before I saw signs of excess pressure.

If your groups are going to be larger at an additional X fps, of what worth is that additional X fps? I'll take accuracy over velocity any day. Even if my bullet isn't optimal... best possible placement will be a larger factor in any success than less than best possible placement at a higher velocity.

[Old Savage]

Well now for instance - I am not going opt for a 2700 fps 6mm or 270 load over a 3000 fps load out here and and either of those cartridges can be loaded near their reasonable max with excellent accuracy with a number of loads. I am not at all arguing with Don's premise or Griff under other circumstances. One thing we did find this year is an 85 gr. Barnes bullet at 3200+ fps is a distinct advantage over 100 bullets at say 2900 fps at longish distances.

[RIHMFIRE]

it only make sense to worry about that stuff if your continually pushing
the limits of the round.... i.e long range hunting.....and silhouettes
and I know very few who do that.....
How dead ..........is dead?

[COSteve]

I'm not as interested in higher velocities for velocity sake alone, however, if the velocity increase makes a noticeable difference trajectory or resistance to wind drift, then it has my interest. Humane hunting is all about hitting where you aim and a flatter shooting weapon makes that easier when shooting at an uncertain distance.

[Old Time Hunter]

Personally I say it "depends". Been experimenting on putting together a functional cast load for a M95 Steyr 8 X 56R that would have dependable combination of accuracy and allow for some sort of bullet deformity within a 100 yard range. Cast a bunch of bullets using Lee moulds for the 8 X 56, .338, and one they called a "Super" 8mm (interesting mould as it produces a 250 grain almost flat nose bullet very similar in looks to an oversize .30-30, drops at around .329 diameter, but I use a piece of tin foil to get a .332 diameter). Back to the question of 200fps...

At less than 1500 fps, non of the before mentioned could maintain any consistant accuracy, much less cause any projectile deformity (all bullets were cast WW with 5% tin added and gas checked) through a 2" oak board at 100 yards. When building up the speed through powder and powder charge changes, the accuracy improved tremendously...and I started to get a little bullet expansion. The "super" 8 mm bullet became very accurate at around 1625 fps while flattening the nose of the bullet to an average of .466". At 1700+ fps, they rarely it the target and when they did, it looked like a scatter gun plastered the target. On the other hand, both the 8 X 56 and the .338 both got more accurate as the velocity picked up, especially above 1700 fps. By the way, the .338 sized to .332 worked the best! So inconclusion...yes, an extra 200 fps can make a difference in some instances.

[jnyork]

If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

The whole discussion in a nutshell.

[Old Savage]

Bingo Steve and wind drift is a factor seldom thought about. But when it is varying from 30 mph to maybe a dead zone or both in the local mountains it certainly can be an issue of swirling in a large bowl. One day it blew the chronograph over to the left and the targets off the cardboard to the right 100 yds away

[madman4570]

That extra velocity does kinda get me excited a little

That 30-06 just became a 300 Win Mag / that 223 just became a 22-250 / that 45-70 just became a 416 Rigby (in certain able actioned guns) or that 458 Win Mag just became a 458 Lott (big differences possible) JMO

[86er]

I'm not sure about 200 fps, but somewhere around 300 fps can mean the difference in a bullet doing what is was designed to do as opposed to being unpredicatable. The first example that comes to mind from recent experimentation is the 500 grain .458 Rhino expanding bullet. At 1650 fps it would not open up at all on wet newsprint at 15 yds. When I hit 1950 fps it opened into a beautiful X shape like it is designed to do. Reading into it a little further, it would still need even more muzzle velocity to achieve that proper velocity at impact at 100 yds or whatever distance you'd shoot game. Another that I experimented with was the 165 grain Speer Grand Slam .308. In the 308 Winchester going 2550 fps MV it expanded very little on deer. I pushed it 2850 from a 30-06 and it seemed to open up much better. Similarly, I was using the 165 grain Speer BT .308 in my 300 Savage. They did not expand in several animals that I shot with a MV of 2350. I switched to a 170 grain Nosler Partion but kept the same velocity. That bullet is made to expand at 2350 and it did some wonderfully. Last but not least, here is a backwards example. I tried 140 grain Remington Core-Lokts in a 7mm Mag at 3000 fps and a 7mm-08 at 2800 fps. Inside 100 yds the bullets violently fragment and rarely exit a deer sized animal (that can be good or bad, you decide). However, I found the same bullet at 2550 fps from my 7X57 works great - it stays together and mushrooms perfectly. In my 308 Win I use a 165 gr Nosler Partition at 2550 fps. I could get more velocity - up to 300 fps more, but the bullet works at this speed and the accuracy is excellent so I never tried to get more out of it. So, I agree with your general statement in the sense that one cartridge of same diameter generating 200 fps over or under another doesn't inherently mean anything. However, in response to the question Who cares about 200 fps - I do - depending on what kind of bullet performance I am getting compared to what I want or expect.

[Old Savage]

So Joe - from your experience what would be best in a 300 Savage?

[86er]

In the 300 Sav from my experience the 150 grain Rem Core-Lokt behaves like a controlled expansion bullet. The 150 grain Winchester Ballistic Silvertip CT made for the 30-30 but seated to proper length works like a quick expanding bullet and the 170 grain Nosler Partion (also made for 30-30) works like it is designed to. I'm using the 150's going 2500 fps and the 170 going 2350 fps MV. The Speer 150 gr RN was accurate and worked pretty good but the expansion/penetration was less consistent over 50 rounds that the previously mentioned bullets. Frankly, I couldn't get any 165's to work right whether they were going 2100 fps or 2540 fps. I used Winchester Silvertip 180 grain RN at 2250 fps and they would get a wide tip and then it would break off. The penetration was there but not a wide wound channel. Since the 170 NP was performing better, I quit working with the 180's before I really got into it.

[crs]

+1 for what 86er said about velocity and I was too busy to write.

[pharmseller]

My Weatherby .30-06 shoots much more accurately with higher velocity loads. Standard velocity (2700 f/sec) gives me significant groups. MV approaching 2900 f/sec with 180 gr. Partitions gives me itty bitty groups and complete pass-through shots on bull elk.

P

[stretch]

For the most part, who cares? But there are situations where
an extra 200-300 fps can make a HUGE difference.

Let's look at two examples:

A 158gr. LSWCHP in 38 Special at 900 fps is going to be MUCH
more effective as a personal defense round than it would be at 600
or 700fps.

At the other end of the spectrum, is a 165 gr. PSP going to
be radically different at 2800fps than it is at 2600fps out of
a 30-06? Maybe there is a really specialized application where
that's true, but for the most part - no.

Just my two cents worth.

-Stretch

[getitdone1]

Actually I was thinking of the likes of 270 Winchester vs. 270 Weatherby and the like rather than the slower cartridges. Say, 3100 vs. 3300 fps. Or, the 264 Win. beats the 270 but not with the heavier bullets.

I see 300 fps a real advantage, with right bullet, in the 45-70, for instance. Say, 2000fps vs. 1700. Same with handguns. With them it's significant if the bullet goes 1200 rather than 900 fps.

A lot of where I'm coming from is practicality and a high regard for the many good old cartridges. 30-06, 270, 250 Savage, 257 Roberts, 300 Savage, 375 H&H, and on and on. Also, like I said, less muzzle blast, less recoil and less expensive. If they do the job with these benefits then a very high percentage of the time--all the time for me--why bother with the latest whiz-bang cartridge? Also, with less blast and recoil accuracy will be better for most shooters. No small thing.

Is asthetics involved? That is, is there such a thing as a pretty cartridge? I think so and my pick for the prettiest is the 270 Winchester. Subjective, strictly personal opinion for sure. On the other hand there's a lot to be said for the saying: "Pretty is as pretty does."

Pretty amazing to me that in a practical, all-around sense for over 100 years no one has come out with a cartridge that beats the 30-06. This could also be said about others but the 30-06 is the best example. Came back to this and have to add the absolutely great 30-30. For woods hunting on medium sized game you can't beat it. A whole lot in a little package. Same for the 250 Savage.

Don

[Jeff H]

I think it's fine for a fella to be on a velocity quest, but it's not my bag.
My centerfire rifles (excluding my lever chambered for a pistol cartridge) are .223, .257 Roberts and the 6.5x55. I have a 7x57 "in parts." These are the ones that "stuck" after the purge. I moved all the stuff I couldn't find time to devote to and saved the best of the bunch with the notion I could spend more time with fewer guns.

My .223 would probably be fine as a .222, but brass for the .223 is much more plentiful and way cheaper, at least when I acquired mine. My .223 can turn a skunk inside out at 300 yards - upwind of course, so it's "enough."

I had a 7x57AI once and my Dad still shoots a .257AI. My Mom has a 6.5x.284.

The 7mmAI did nothing for me. It would put three Hornady 162 grain Spire Points into one ragged hole at a hundred yards - doing just shy of 2700 fps. I am happier with a regular 175 grain RN at 2500 - and that's "hot" for me.

The 6.5x.284 hurts with 140 grain SPs, while 160 RNs at 2400 fps out of my 6.5x55 are pretty easy on you. My 6.5x55 prints one-hole three-shot groups with those archaic RNs in a sporter-weight gun.

The .257AI showed the most notable velocity gains, but then a 75 grain Sierra HP out of my standard Roberts will do 3300 fps and put three of them into 3/8". No 'chuck hit with it has made it to his hole and I doubt those that were hit with my Dad's AI have bragging rights over those hit with my standard - wherever woodchucks go when they have met a Sierra HP.

[tman]

I've read for years about lots of cartridges being greatly improved since they shoot the bullet 2-300 fps faster than the older cartridge.

That used to mean something to me, but no more. If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. And, I'll receive a little less muzzle blast and recoil. Also save a little money.

Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

You just killed the gun industry and put alot of gun magazines and writers out of work.

[getitdone1]

I've read for years about lots of cartridges being greatly improved since they shoot the bullet 2-300 fps faster than the older cartridge.

That used to mean something to me, but no more. If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. And, I'll receive a little less muzzle blast and recoil. Also save a little money.

Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

You just killed the gun industry and put alot of gun magazines and writers out of work.

tman,

Geez, I didn't mean to do THAT !

Don

[piller]

Admittedly, a lot less experience than many on here, but it does seem that some manufacturers make their bullets to preform within a specified range of velocities. I have noticed that some bullets don't do as well when handloaded to a different velocity from the factory original. Pushing a bullet to maximum just to see how fast you can get it seems a little pointless.

[JBledsoe]

I've read for years about lots of cartridges being greatly improved since they shoot the bullet 2-300 fps faster than the older cartridge.

That used to mean something to me, but no more. If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. And, I'll receive a little less muzzle blast and recoil. Also save a little money.

Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

You just killed the gun industry and put alot of gun magazines and writers out of work.

tman,

Geez, I didn't mean to do THAT !

Don

Good discussion and I agree with Don.
Gun writer John Barsness says that the optimum velocity for a jacketed rifle bullet is 2700 to 2800 fps.
Cast bullets is another matter. A Keith style flat nose bullet does not need to expand and best velocity is in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. Results of test by Randy Garrett showed that with heavy-for-caliber hard cast bullets, penetration decreased significantly as velocity increased. That would indicate that above 1600 fps more velocity is actually detrimental.

More is better? We have been "conditioned" to believe that by marketing hype and some (but not all) gun writers. So stop reading that magazine and get out and see for your self.

.

[Old Savage]

We are shooting all copper here. Faster the better. 85 gr 243 at 3250. Quite the ticket.

[getitdone1]

JBledsoe,

Depends on the bullet is right.

Another negative derived from more modern super-duper cartridges is shortened barrel life.

I'm going to give the gallon milk jugs filled with water another go with the 45-70 405 gr Remington at about 1400 fps. This is close to the old-time black powder load in velocity. Back then expect they used a bullet harder than this Remington bullet. Is this right? Of course it would have been a cast bullet. I was impressed with this Remington load last time I shot it through jugs and want to be sure I got it right.

Yes, sometimes less is more!

Don

[J Miller]

JBledsoe,

Depends on the bullet is right.

Another negative derived from more modern super-duper cartridges is shortened barrel life.

I'm going to give the gallon milk jugs filled with water another go with the 45-70 405 gr Remington at about 1400 fps. This is close to the old-time black powder load in velocity. Back then expect they used a bullet harder than this Remington bullet. Is this right? Of course it would have been a cast bullet. I was impressed with this Remington load last time I shot it through jugs and want to be sure I got it right.

Yes, sometimes less is more!

Don

Don,
I'm not sure if the bullets of old were cast or swaged but according to my reproduction Winchester 1896 Ammunition catalog the bullets were made from 16-1 lead-tin alloy. That's Elmer Keith's favorite alloy. As big as those bullets are, I don't think they need to be super hard to get the job done.

Joe

[JBledsoe]

JBledsoe,

Depends on the bullet is right.

Another negative derived from more modern super-duper cartridges is shortened barrel life.

I'm going to give the gallon milk jugs filled with water another go with the 45-70 405 gr Remington at about 1400 fps. This is close to the old-time black powder load in velocity. Back then expect they used a bullet harder than this Remington bullet. Is this right? Of course it would have been a cast bullet. I was impressed with this Remington load last time I shot it through jugs and want to be sure I got it right.

Yes, sometimes less is more!

Don

Don,
I'm not sure if the bullets of old were cast or swaged but according to my reproduction Winchester 1896 Ammunition catalog the bullets were made from 16-1 lead-tin alloy. That's Elmer Keith's favorite alloy. As big as those bullets are, I don't think they need to be super hard to get the job done.

Joe

The same hold true today, bullets do not need and in fact should not be super hard. Hard cast bullets are known to shatter on bones and too soft will splatter. The 16-1 alloy has been the favorite for decades.

.

[El Chivo]

maybe I worry too much, but I think it's important to consider the velocity at the target rather than at the muzzle. If you're taking a 400 yard shot, you want all the velocity you can get. If you're taking a 50 yard shot, that same load might make the bullet fragment.

I was talking to one hunter who complained that his bullet didn't expand, and he didn't know why. It was a 400 yard shot, so I told him that it was going too slow by then. Nothing wrong with the bullet, just wrong for that shot.

One of the bullets I have is the Barnes XPB pistol bullet - and if you drive it too fast the petals fold straight back or come off. But it will expand nicely at only 900 fps. Good for a long shot, not so good for a short shot. The Barnes spire points have petals that are more heavily built, so they require 1800 fps to expand, but hold up at higher velocities. That gives them the potential to expand nicely on short shots but not at all on long shots.

So, and extra 200 fps can give you a few more yards of expanding bullet. Or make your bullet fall apart rather than work properly.

[J Miller]

El Chivo,

What you just posted makes a lot of sense. My question is this; with factory ammo how do you know at what velocity the bullet they use is made to expand?
I've seen this information on Hornady, Speer and Sierra bullets, but not factory bullets.

Joe

[L_Kilkenny]

I don't think any of us can argue that an extra 15% or more of velocity can add to effectiveness, range and tragectory. But maybe those gains aren't needed for what ever task you have at hand. Case in point is a .308 vs. .30-30. The .308 is clearly a superior cartridge but dang, a dead deer is a dead deer and if all you are shooting is 150 yards you don't need the .308 or it's extra velocity. But velocity can be a good thing.

What I don't like to do is stretch whichever cartridge I am shooting to max. I'd rather shoot a moderately loaded .257 bob than a hot .250 Savage. I'd rather shoot a moderate .25-06 than a hot .257 bob and so on. I keep my .22-250 loads at about 3600 fps when I can push them to close to 4000. In my .243 I'm basically looking to one-up a .250 Savage's ballistics. Not gonna hot rod it in the least and if I really need that extra for my task I need to move up in guns.

If you move on over to handguns I feel the same way. I spent some time playing with hot loads and Lil'gun powder for my .32 H&R when it hit me that if I really need that much more than why am I not just using my .357?

LK

[stretch]

If you move on over to handguns I feel the same way. I spent some time playing with hot loads and Lil'gun powder for my .32 H&R when it hit me that if I really need that much more than why am I not just using my .357?

LK

That's just the way I feel! Sure it's fun to experiment, and maybe one
of those hot loads IS super-accurate as well.

But generally, if I need more power, I use a different gun.
357 won't cut it? How about 41 Mag? No soap? 35 Remington.
Still not enough?! 30-06? NO?!?!

NOW I have an excuse for a brandy-new 45-70!!

-Stretch

[jlchucker]

I've read for years about lots of cartridges being greatly improved since they shoot the bullet 2-300 fps faster than the older cartridge.

That used to mean something to me, but no more. If the bullet is placed accurately the animal will not know the difference. And, I'll receive a little less muzzle blast and recoil. Also save a little money.

Too, new-improved is very important to a companies bottom line no matter if it's mostly hot air.

Don McCullough

You just killed the gun industry and put alot of gun magazines and writers out of work.

tman,

Geez, I didn't mean to do THAT !

Don

Too bad about the gun industries, Don. And I'll leave it at that.

[meanc]

I know you qualified your question later in mentioning rifle cartridges, but there are some states that require a minimum muzzle energy for hunting. Those using pistol cartridges in their revolvers/lever actions could definitely benefit from the extra 200fps.

[BAGTIC]

Dwell time? Just drop an unloaded bullet in the jug and see how much effect the added dwell time has.

The lower BC and SD results in an increased rate of deceleration. It is that deceleration that creates the hydraulic shock wave that seems so impressive. Sure impresses the kids. That is in fluids. In solids the effect is going to be a lot different. Next time try shooting a jug full of sand.