CAst bullets in the BLR .450 marlin

[longshotz]

Looking at buying a BLR in .450 Marlin and need some load data for cast bullets.
Since the BLR is a much stronger action than the Marlin or Winchester I presume that it can be loaded somewhat hotter than the books say.
Feedback, opinions, and some examples of confirmed data much appreciated

Longshotz

[Terry Murbach]

YOU PRESUME WRONG, SIR !!!
AS A MATTER OF FACT , YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND GOING ABOUT IT TOTALLY INCORRECTLY !!!

[Nath]

I did not know there was a BLR in the 450M! I will have to check that out.

Only my opinion but ain't it enough in standard doings cast or jacketed?

Nath.

[Buck Elliott]

If you NEED something "hotter" than the standard, garden-variety .450 Marlin, PLEASE get a .458 Winchester, and be done with it. Hot-rodding the .450 will get you in more hot water than you'd ever need, just for a Saturday night bath...

[1886]

Welcome aboard. No need to hot rod that round. Plenty of horsepower on tap when loaded within the SAAMI guidelines. Find a couple of manuals that list data for the components YOU wish to use and your in biz. 1886.

[Nath]

Sorry Longshotz, I did not notice you just joined.

Hi

N.

[Leverluver]

Driving a cast bullet excessively fast is counter productive anyway. I have pics of 458FP commercial, supposedly high tech cast that lost near half their weight impacting at 1700-1800fps. They would have worked much better left in the 1300-1600fps area.

[Bruce]

I have a BLR Stainless Takedown in 450 Marlin (non cataloged Shot Show). I bought it for my big strapping son in law as a gift. We took it out to sight it in, he fired five shots and asked if he could give it back w/o hurting my feelings. I took it back.

With both of the current Hornady factory loads, it does offer a little kick for those who mind. It does not bother me, but I sure would not try to go any hotter than the book loads - for many reasons including overloading. Your thread title mentions Cast bullets and I don't think you would want to exceed any published data with them either as you would probably get a bad leading problem.

Welcome.

[longshotz]

Thanks for all the replies, but it seems that I have not given adequate clarification here.
Allow me to present a parallel of my post topic.
As you all know the 45/70 has several sets of data depending on the action of the rifle used; or more to the point, the strength of the action.
As is commonly known, the marlins have the structural integrity to take higher pressures than the trap door actions in 45/70.; hence the "hot rod" loads for the marlin compared to the trap door.
You can go to"light bottom end" .458 ballistics in the Ruger No. 1 with 45/70 loadings
In essence, three different load levels for the same cartridge in different actions.
Same applies for the .450.
Designed for the Marlin action (with corresponding pressures), when used in the BLR action, which is capable of handling the newest mags. (with the much higher corresponding pressures!) I see no reason why the .450 can't be loaded to the 55,000+ psi (VS 40,000 and something in the Marlin lever-gun) which is approximately the working pressures (a bit less actually) of the 30'06, 270, 308 class of calibers commonly used in the BLR.
As to cast bullets; well some just work and some won't in certain action styles.
Even though both are lever-guns, the actual mechanics of the BLR may not be conducive to proper function of cast bullets.
It is the issue of reliability of function in the BLR rather than velocity (see leverluver reply) that I am addressing.
So all who have something to say, please say away!
And thanks for the chat.

Longshotz

[Idiot]

The 450 Marlin is equivalent to the top end Marlin 45/70 loads. The 450M was developed as such and is maxed out at those pressures. It was not developed to equal a 458 Winchester. Besides chamber strength and overall gun strength, you must also factor in brass strength, including case head strength and case elasticity. All of which are factors in determining just how much pressure a cartridge can take. The Ruger #1 chamber is surrounded by a lot of steel which will expand very little when fired at sane pressure levels. Its chamber will actually support the case if fired beyond its designed strength. A BLR chamber is not as beefy at the Ruger # 1 and may not support the case if its designed strength is surpassed. The BLR may be designed to handle magnum bottleneck cartridge pressures, but so are those bottleneck cases and cartridges.

I spent a good part of my life playing and designing various wildcat cartridges and have found that once you begin stressing the case and the chamber it's shot in, you better have a good supply of band aides nearby. In the end I found that the engineers the ammo manufacturers and gun builders hire to design and build their goods were a whole lot smarter than I was.

I'm not suggesting you not go forward with your experimenting, I'm just cautioning you to evaluate everything before stepping next to the cliffs unstable edge. Have fun.

[76/444]

If you NEED something "hotter" than the standard, garden-variety .450 Marlin, PLEASE get a .458 Winchester, and be done with it. Hot-rodding the .450 will get you in more hot water than you'd ever need, just for a Saturday night bath...

This sage advice, by Buck, was once given on this forum before by him.

Now,...as then, I'll throw my .02 in and support it as sound advice.

I have believed in stepping up in caliber, rather than maxing out a particular caliber, for as long as I could figure ballistic things out. It has served my weapons well in lasting their intended designed life expectancy,... as well as my own body's intended life span.

To this day I don't understand the mind set to try and make a lighter caliber perform like the next caliber up on the power scale.

Good luck in your quest.

[Leverluver]

Lets' go with your premise for a moment. First off, the 450 is a 43.5K cartridge, not a 40K. So you want to go to mid 50s. That's ~ 10 K increase. For that 10+K, you would be lucky to see another 100fps for a 350-400 grain bullet; much less for even heavier. As cartridges (especially, high expansion ratio cartridges) approach their top end, the pressure increase per velocity increase is a steep geometric graph, not a linear one. Basically, each increment of velocity increase takes much more pressure than the last increment of velocity increase. The danger factor is even greater in attempting such an increase with cartridges that, do to their expansion ratio, must use very fast powders to achieve those velocities. Taking it to it's max, the last 100fps of the 45-70 takes more than 10K to achieve. Unless you have pressure measuring equipment (I do, but not that round) you will be dancing with the devil. Better wear your good shoes. It's doable but be very careful. And don't expect help from cartridge, bullet, or powder manufacturers. You are totally on your own.

[Hobie]

It has been said in other ways but... IF YOU NEED MORE GUN, GET MORE GUN.

The relationship of the heavy .45-70 loads to the Marlin platform and to the .450 Marlin has been explained to you. Why you should not do what you propose has been explained by some VERY experienced and qualified individuals with something over 100 years total experience and accumulated knowledge. I believe that most would interpret the phraseology you used such that you wouldn't be complimented. Might be better to re-phrase and explain that you simply don't understand the ballistic truths behind the short explanations received. Be certain of one thing though, you've been told the truth.

[76/444]

Lets' go with your premise for a moment. First off, the 450 is a 43.5K cartridge, not a 40K. So you want to go to mid 50s. That's ~ 10 K increase. For that 10+K, you would be lucky to see another 100fps for a 350-400 grain bullet; much less for even heavier. As cartridges (especially, high expansion ratio cartridges) approach their top end, the pressure increase per velocity increase is a steep geometric graph, not a linear one. Basically, each increment of velocity increase takes much more pressure than the last increment of velocity increase. The danger factor is even greater in attempting such an increase with cartridges that, do to their expansion ratio, must use very fast powders to achieve those velocities. Taking it to it's max, the last 100fps of the 45-70 takes more than 10K to achieve. Unless you have pressure measuring equipment (I do, but not that round) you will be dancing with the devil. Better wear your good shoes. It's doable but be very careful. And don't expect help from cartridge, bullet, or powder manufacturers. You are totally on your own.

Hmmmm,... excellent,.... just one added comment on the point of,... MORE velocity does not always translate into better ACCURACY. Actually, quit the opposite sometimes. Seems like it would be a bitch to go that route ,.... for naught!

[JFE]

One reason why its not such good idea to push cast bullets beyond 40k is that accuracy with cast is tricky at high pressure. You need to tailor the hardness of the alloy to the pressure of the load and the harder the alloy the less expansion you have and a higher likelihood of having the bullet shattering on bone. Jacketed bullets would be another matter of course.

I've not seen a BLR in 450 Marlin, so my comments need to be taken with that in mind. I think what people here are trying to say is that while the action may be strong enough, the chamber area of the 450 barrel may not thick enough to withstand the higher pressures you want to achieve ie the total package may not be up to high pressure use. I'd be comparing the barrel diameter of the chamber area to that of a BLR in 325 or 300 WSM.

Personally I think you could probably acheive decent performance in the rifle within factory design pressures. In practice there isnt much you cant do with a 400gr at 1800-2000 fps and this can be achieved at 40k pressures. Recoil in a 7lb rifle will be very stout and this is more likely to be your limiting factor.

However if I wanted to increase performance further I'd investigate altering the mag to allow a longer LOA. If feasible, loading to the longer LOA you could increase performance while sticking to 40k pressure.

Joe

[CowboyTutt]

I see no reason why the .450 can't be loaded to the 55,000+ psi (VS 40,000 and something in the Marlin lever-gun) which is approximately the working pressures (a bit less actually) of the 30'06, 270, 308 class of calibers commonly used in the BLR.

My God, Man! You've been given some darn good advice and you've obviously never heard of case-head thrust which is many times greater in a 458 caliber round than the 270-308 caliber rounds you quoted, or of all the myraid details that can pertain to dramatic changes in pressure and/or damage to guns in what your proposing. Terry Murbach has more time in ballistics labs with pressure testing equipment than probably any other member here. Buck Elliot was previously in charge of the machine shop at Freedom Arms. The BLR migh survive some rounds of "Ruger #1" loads, but it also might very well not handle too many at all. I hate to be rude, but if you want to take the risk of blowing yourself and your fingers up, please be sure to do it on your own time and away from any other innocent bystanders at a range.

As previously and correctly stated, the risks involved for the added 100+ fps is simply not worth it????? You asked a perfectly valid question. If you were to ask the same of any powder or bullet manufacturer, or Browning themselves, I'm sure they would tell you the same as us. Please respect the advice you have been given, particularly as you did ask for it. While you may not like our answers, they are based on a lot of experience and we do not wish to see you or anyone else hurt.

-Tutt

[longshotz]

Gentlemen
I now stand more informed and educated than before on this topic.
It is as I suspected on the pressure issue; and no, I do not intend to operate the .450 at 50K+ in any action unless safe (IE: the 45/70 Ruger loadings)
I still would like some input on the use of cast bullets in the BLR action though.
More interested in the function than velocity here.
Thank you one and all for the benefit of your experience and sage advice therein.

Longshotz.

[Buck Elliott]

CAST BULLETS SHOULD WORK JUST AS WELL IN THE .450 AS THEY DO IN THE .45-70 -- which is to say GREAT...

It will depend more on the specific barrel used, than on the difference between cartridges.

[RKrodle]

Gentlemen
I now stand more informed and educated than before on this topic.
It is as I suspected on the pressure issue; and no, I do not intend to operate the .450 at 50K+ in any action unless safe (IE: the 45/70 Ruger loadings)
I still would like some input on the use of cast bullets in the BLR action though.
More interested in the function than velocity here.
Thank you one and all for the benefit of your experience and sage advice therein.

Longshotz.

Knowing that they make the BLR in 450 Marlin, I have never seen one or spoke to anyone that has one. But I would suspect that with some of the big meplat type bullets it may not feed very well. I would think that a RNFP would. This is all speculation on my part.

[longshotz]

It has been sometime since I posted this thread and have decided to pick up where I left off.

Firstly, much thanks for all the very knowledgeable input, though there seems to have been a misunderstanding of my intent here. It was never my goal to make the .450 Marlin into a .458 Win. as was alluded to in several replies. How that came about is unknown to me. No matter anyhow. Rather it was to explore the reason behind the BLR action being able to handle high intensity/pressure cartridges, but seemingly unable to handle similar pressures in .450 Marlin.

Some of you will also note that I had a thread on the 1886 Browning/Winchester as to sight configuration. What I was doing at that time, and I've picked up on it again now, is deciding on whether to purchase either a BLR or an 1886. As you all know, the 1886 action is incredibly strong, such that it routinely takes somewhat higher pressures than the 1895 (336) Marlin or even the BLR; a state of the art lever-gun that is chambered for some of most modern magnums! A bit of tongue in cheek of course. If I'm not mistaken, Paco himself wrote an article about the .444 Marlin in the Big Bore Winchester and quoted some very impressive ballistics; ballistics which would turn any 1895 into scrap metal. Ergo, the 1886 a stronger action than the 1895 Marlin, safely bettering the Marlin round by a couple of hundred fps.

This begs the question. Is the .450 Marlin BLR incapable of the same working pressures as the 1886? Given the tone of the responses that seems to be the case. If Browning was to chamber the BLR in 45/70 what would they say was a safe operating pressure? An academic question perhaps, but illustrates the point I think. Or put it this way: If the BLR was chambered for the .444 M would it be able to safely operate at the same pressures as Paco's .444 Big Bore?

In any event I have decided to take the BLR at face value and not stress the "weaker" action, so I am shopping around for an 1886. Any for sale?

Thanks for the chat. It was both fun and very informative

[Old Savage]

Well, the BLR chambers cartridges for higher pressures than the 1886 does so I don't see why it would be thought to be a weaker action.

[earlmck]

I wasn't on the forum when you first posted the thread, longshotz. Reading the advice and comments you generated was interesting and a little amazing. I'm with Old Savage on this one: that has to be one extremely strong action or they wouldn't be chambering for those belted magnums. I'm sure if I'd acquired a BLR in 450 Marlin I would be looking at the loads developed for the Ruger #1 without hesitation or even a great deal of thought. Well, maybe not really since the old right shoulder hates to get kicked that hard since the arthritis found a home there...

Thanks for bringing back the thread.

[longshotz]

Well, the BLR chambers cartridges for higher pressures than the 1886 does so I don't see why it would be thought to be a weaker action.

Thank you for your reply and this highlights my point precisely.

Since the BLR is a stronger action than the 1886 or the 1895 why then could you not reload the .450 Marlin chambering to "1886 45/70 pressures" or even higher?

Yet the tone of all the previous replies seem to state that this is dangerous ground to tread on.

I am looking for someone who has maybe done this and get some real time feedback on this item.