OT - 6.5/06

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:30 am

On my way home yesterday I went out of the way to hit a shop I haven't been to in a few months. Rifle pickins were slim but I saw one of those old sporter stocks that grab my attention attached to something and I had to take a look.

Japanese Type 38 rechambered to 6.5/06. I'd seen references to the caliber over the years and I know it was a popular conversion for the T38 since 6.5x50 Arisaka ammo was hard to come by, (unless you wanted to search a bunch of islands in the Pacific) but this was the first time I'd seen anything chambered as such.

I need to break out the Ackley books again and read up on it but until I can get to them, how overbore was it? Anyone here spent any quality time with the 6.5/06? I'm curious what off the shelf calibers will do the same thing without the wildcat fuss and muss but only for the sake of comparison. It simply appeals to my old school sporter sensibilites which have ZERO to do with practicality!

Don't know that I'll actually get the rifle (they had it priced over double what I was willing to pay and even the clerk agreed it was way overpriced) but it will be a fun mental exercise to talk myself into or out of it (if they'll get realistic with the price of course).

What say ye?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:46 am

Not so much overbore now. I'm sure there's a powder that will make it shine.

jerry b · Post by **jerry b** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:50 am

It shouldn't be too overbored considering the .25-06 and modern slow powders. However, I don't see the point unless you want a T38 for your collection, and then this one is converted, you know?
What on earth can it do that a .270 won't, an old school cartridge with a colorful history? Or, a 6.5 Swede, if ye must have a .264" bore, loaded in a modern rifle? Etc, etc. Take it hunting and forget or lose your reloads....you're doomed.

I'd pass without a second thought IMO, for what that's worth. Your mileage may vary.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:00 am

If they get real with the price AND IF dies can be found for a reasonable price, I would have to go for it. Of course, I am a real sucker for those older sporterized military rifles. That Arisaka would look good next to your '03. Is it good Fajen or Bishop wood or is it whittled down military?

41 Redhawk · Post by **41 Redhawk** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:47 am

In my limited research I found that the 6.5-284 is one of the darlings of the long range crowd. The 6.5-06 is basically the long action version of the the 6.5-284 with almost identical ballistics.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:03 am

jerry b wrote:It shouldn't be too overbored considering the .25-06 and modern slow powders. However, I don't see the point unless you want a T38 for your collection, and then this one is converted, you know?
What on earth can it do that a .270 won't, an old school cartridge with a colorful history? Or, a 6.5 Swede, if ye must have a .264" bore, loaded in a modern rifle? Etc, etc. Take it hunting and forget or lose your reloads....you're doomed.

I'd pass without a second thought IMO, for what that's worth. Your mileage may vary.

I've had a T38 and T99 in as issued form before, so I've been down that road.

One even still had the jacket of a FMJ embedded into the stock (

).

After a long, hard look at what I've accumulated I've found I have what I "need" and now it's all about what trips my sear. Also, as I get older I've also found I have more in common with the guncranks of 50-100 years ago than I do with today's "latest, greatest" crowd. My "go to" hunting rifles consist of the venerable .30-06, 6.5x55, .257 Roberts (which is a possibility for this rifle as well) and will soon include a 7x57. As I rarely hunt anything other than paper or steel and nothing larger than Whitetail deer I have no need for anything bigger. It's all about nostalgia for a time that ended before I was born.

One of the few exceptions to the above is my desire for a .260 Remington. Yep, it's really nothing more than a short action 6.5x55 but caliber overlap obviously doesn't bother me.

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:12 am

The cartridge is a good deal, however I would suggest a quality chamber cast before getting to insure it was properly cut. One wildcat common was the 6.5X257 Roberts. It may have issues with length of action. I seriously considered going to this caliber it does step out and will be adequate for just about anything with proper twist rate and bullet selection. Good Luck.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:52 am

This would be a great cartridge in the right rifle. I'm not sure you have the right rifle: I have a 6.5 jap and a 6.5X257 in these type 38s and neither shoots very well, most likely because of the grossly oversized bore. The 6.5 jap slugs .269 and the 6.5X257 slugs .270. When I load 'em hot enough the bullets do "slug up" and quit keyholing, but accuracy is still in that 3-minute range. Yeah, I know many of these shoot OK, just saying that there are also many out there that don't shoot fine with the standard .264 bullet.

By the way, if you acquire an unaltered one, brass is easily formed from 35 Remington. I run it into a .308 die first, then take it on to 6.5 jap (for which Lee makes dies). The base is a bit small, but works just fine in my rifle and also in the rifle of the friend who got me started with the 6.5 jap to begin with.

If you do acquire this rifle and don't want to invest big $$ in dies, you could easily use a 270 size die as a "body die" when you need to full-length size, and use your 6.5X55 for neck sizing most of the time and for seating all the time. Just sayin' what cheapskate Earl would be thinking...

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:55 am

earlmck wrote: If you do acquire this rifle and don't want to invest big $$ in dies, you could easily use a 270 size die as a "body die" when you need to full-length size, and use your 6.5X55 for neck sizing most of the time and for seating all the time. Just sayin' what cheapskate Earl would be thinking...

Ooooooh, I like the way you think!

You're not cheap, you're "value conscious"...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:17 pm

I recently "had" a 98 Mauser that had been rebarreled to a 6.5-06 with a Shilen barrel . This one was a tack driver with the correct handloads . And I used "real" 6.5-06 dies . They weren't all that expensive since the guy that built the rifle gave me a new set of RCBS with the rifle .

I also have a 6.5x50 Arisaka my grandfather brought back after WWII . Also have dies and brass for the gun . But have yet to work up loads .

airedaleman · Post by **airedaleman** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:17 pm

6.5/'06 is kind of a "field expedient" .256 Newton...

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:02 pm

I agree with jerry B. It is a very good round, but it has nothing over a .270

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:25 pm

airedaleman wrote:6.5/'06 is kind of a "field expedient" .256 Newton...

I ran across a couple of references to the Newton during a limited search while at work. Came home and read up on both rounds in Mr Ackley's books but there's no clear difference I can see. Any ideas?

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:08 pm

awp101 wrote: Any ideas?

Yes, If you can get it for the right price, buy it.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:48 pm

awp 101,
I have a set of dies in 6.5-06 Ackley Imp. and about 100 pieces of formed brass plus some loaded ammo which I would suggest should be pulled and reloaded before shooting. You are welcome to all of it if you want it. Just taking up space in my ammo cabinet.
PM me.

M. M.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:31 pm

Here's a little buck I killed with the 6.5-06 I had a in 2009 .

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:47 am

Sort of an update. With Father's Day and our anniversary coming up, I've been given the green light to do some looking (no promises or budget yet though) and this rifle came back to mind.

What headspace gauges would you check this with? 6.5? .30-06?

I don't even know if it's still there but I'm still kicking ideas around...

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:03 am

If you are really curious about headspace you'd use 270 or '06 gauge. But it's a wildcat which means you control headspace when you make your first rounds. You'll probably be using 270 brass (or '06). Just ease the brass into the sizer die with it not screwed down quite all the way, and keep trying until you get the perfect fit. Voila! minimum headspace.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:15 am

awp101,
I have one
Used a Rem. 700 long action,E.R. Shaw 26" medium varmit barrel, hand cut the chamber myself, still have the reamer, lapped the bolt.
Choate ultimate sniper stock, ( stupid name in my opinion )
Weaver T10 scope
Sent it to Blackstar Accurizing for cryogenic stress relief
My opinion is that it is more versatile than .270

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:20 am

earlmck wrote:If you are really curious about headspace you'd use 270 or '06 gauge. But it's a wildcat which means you control headspace when you make your first rounds. You'll probably be using 270 brass (or '06). Just ease the brass into the sizer die with it not screwed down quite all the way, and keep trying until you get the perfect fit. Voila! minimum headspace.

I knew that...OK, not really....

That's good to know, thanks!

Mescalero, did you go "regular" or AI?

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:24 am

Regular,
dies from Redding and they were NOT expensive.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:32 pm

earlmck wrote:The 6.5 jap slugs .269 and the 6.5X257 slugs .270.

Another thought: could jacketed .270 bullets be used in either? I know cast is supposed be be a smidge larger than the bore (.002"-003"? I forget) but I don't know when it comes to jacketed.

mescalero, what kind of load data are you using? I think I've read Hornady has 6.5/06 data but I haven't looked yet.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:50 pm

Nosler # 3
Sierra 4th Edition

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:43 pm

awp101 wrote:
earlmck wrote: I think I've read Hornady has 6.5/06 data but I haven't looked yet.

Got all my load info from Nosler manuals also !

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:44 pm

Thanks! I know I have a Sierra, I'll have to see if there's a Nosler in the house.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:33 pm

awp101 wrote:
earlmck wrote:The 6.5 jap slugs .269 and the 6.5X257 slugs .270.
Another thought: could jacketed .270 bullets be used in either? I know cast is supposed be be a smidge larger than the bore (.002"-003"? I forget) but I don't know when it comes to jacketed.

OK, I think I answered my own question since I'm now home and had a chance to hit the books. Since the .270 is actually a .277" I don't think it would work. Well, not more than 2-3 times if I were lucky...

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:40 pm

Thats my knock on the .270
not a lot of bullet selection.

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:09 pm

A friend of mine shoots bench competition and uses 6.5mm exclusively. Barrels that are "washed out" he takes them off and puts them on other "non-competition" rifles. He uses Hawk Bullets quiet often because the type of pressures he's dealing with they slug up inside the barrel very nicely. His go to powders are IMR 4350 and IMR 4831 for the 6.5mm class.

Mainehunter

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:28 pm

Mainehunter,
Thank you VERY MUCH for that info
mescalero

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:44 pm

Mainehunter wrote:He uses Hawk Bullets quiet often because the type of pressures he's dealing with they slug up inside the barrel very nicely.

What kind of pressures are we talking here? I don't shoot competition and rarely hunt so I'd be loading for range plinking.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:56 pm

I would not go for that rifle personally.

Why?

Because of the twist rate. It would be geared to 160 grain bullets at 2250 fps.

The 6.5-06 is basically a .264 Winchester - I doubt that the twist rate is best for the balistics of the round.

There are .268" bullets available but I think only 160 grain round noses - Hornady IIRC. Grafs would be the place to find them.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:03 pm

Yes,
Listen to OSAK
this is a CUSTOM propisition ...............NOT a surplus remake
If you do this right, and depending on your shooting abilities............
The planet wii be hard pressed to produce a counter.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:50 pm

This rifle could be a fun project. I know I was a little negative, warning about the oversized bores of the two Arisakas I own. But I don't have any idea how common it is to have an oversized bore in these rifles: could be I have the only two that slipped out of the factory that way (though I kinda' doubt that). You've no doubt seen Ackley's "torture tests" where these Arisakas proved to be almost indestructible. So the action will take whatever pressures you might desire to play around with.

But on one more negative note: another thing to check before you acquire the rifle is action length. I just measured my 6.5X57 Arisaka and my Rem 700 '06 and the Arisaka action is nearly .7" shorter. That's a lot of length to give up and is the reason these were generally rechambered to the shorter 6.5X57 cartridge. Is the store 100% positive this is 6.5X06 and not 6.5X57?

Udy · Post by **Udy** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:50 am

I am actually having a rifle built in this caliber right now. I don't know if the rifle you are looking at is a good one for the conversion, but the caliber its self is a good one. I bought RCBS dies at a reasonable price, and bought 25-06 brass to use in it. It is as simple as running the 25-06 brass through the 6.5-05 sizeing die and your ready to load. Any 30-06 brass can get there, but I think this is probably the simplest. Is it better than a 25-06 or a 270??? Depends what you want to do with it. The problem with .257" bullets is your limited to pretty much 120 gr. bullets at the heavy end. .277 bullets can go much heavier, but and really can't think of a reason not to just get a 270 really, but the 6.5 bullets are endless and kind of falls inbetween the two. Really a nitch cartridge that has been wildcated a long time. The 6.5 in any form really excells in long range shooting with 130-140 bullets due to its long bullets for caliber. Is it better than a like cartidge?? I don't know, but its got cool factor just cause its different. I like the idea of it as a varmit gun/deer size gun. kind of a compromize of a .257 with better bullet selection in my opinion. Mine is being built on a mauser action.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:40 am

I have a feeling you will like it, most people I have spoken with about 6.5 mm bullets ( who are rational ) come away from the 6.5 experience with a new found respect for the caliber.
It performs way out of character for it's size.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:23 am

As usual, you guys are 3-4 steps ahead of me...

I looked and my Sierra manual has load data but I didn't think to look at the bullet weights used.

I hadn't even gotten around to thinking about the twist rate but I like heavy smackers so a 160g load doesn't bother me. And Graf's does carry the Hornady .268" 160g RNSP. 99.5% of my shots would be under 125yds so I don't particularly need a spitzer. OAL might be a concern though.

I'd forgotten about Mr Ackley's strength tests until earlmck mentioned them. Even thought the action is Hell for stout (much to everyone's surprise) there's no point in pushing it harder than necessary. If the rifle (or at least the barrel) were mid to late war production an over sized bore would not surprise me (assuming the bore was properly maintained to begin with).

The barrel is stamped (or scribed, it's been a while since I laid eyes on it) 6.5-06. I don't know if it's been Ackley'ed or not or if someone shortened the shank and re-rechambered it to 6.5x257.

Mescalero, we've discussed the 6.5x55 before so you know I'm a fan of the 6.5 in particular and the mid-bores in general.

AFA the .270 angle, I have no interest in one. How's that for irony? I'm not interested in an off the shelf caliber that can be resupplied at any half decent sporting goods store but something with almost identical performance requiring extra work and research intrigues me. I suppose I am officially a gun crank now...

I'll be in that area today so I may pop in to see if it's still there. I still don't know my budget yet or if they will get realistic with the price either. Regardless, this has been a fun mental exercise and learning experience. If nothing else I understand Skaggs Gunsmithing (IIRC) deals with Arisakas and could rebarrel it to .257 Bob or 6.5/06 with the proper twist.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:01 am

awp101,
You are missing the point here brother,
with the proper twist, and 120-140 grain spitzers this thing shines at really loooooooooooong ranges.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:10 am

Mescalero wrote:I have a feeling you will like it, most people I have spoken with about 6.5 mm bullets ( who are rational ) come away from the 6.5 experience with a new found respect for the caliber. It performs way out of character for it's size.

We Scanahovians have known this for over a century.

Oly da Norsk

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:45 pm

Well, this particular one won't happen. They're stuck on a price of $500 OTD which is at least $100 over what I'd give for it regardless of budget and even then $400 is probably over paying.

I won't rule one out in the future though.

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:08 am

awp101 wrote:
Mainehunter wrote:He uses Hawk Bullets quiet often because the type of pressures he's dealing with they slug up inside the barrel very nicely.
What kind of pressures are we talking here? I don't shoot competition and rarely hunt so I'd be loading for range plinking.

He's pushing them around 55,000 PSI. I know that you won't be achieving that but I have used the Hawk bullets in my worn out Marlin 1893 in 38-55 with great success! I'm probably not going over 28,000 PSI. You should give them a call, they are friendly and pleasant to talk to.

Mainehunter