What happened to accuracy and quality?

[86er]

I'm keeping this on-topic because of the recent Marlin gripes and the fact that I'm going to mention my Henry.

Yesterday I owned a high-powered adult air rifle for about 2 hours. I have a life sized bright orange ground squirrel spinner target that the boys and I shoot in the back at 25 yards. We do have neighbors a couple hundred yards away on both sides so I try to keep the centerfire to a minimum and the rimfire down to 50 rounds or less at once. We've been using some old air rifles I had when I was a kid, but they aren't powerful enough to spin the target so we know we hit it.

I bought a Beeman Dual-Caliber air rifle with scope for $98. It came with two barrels, .177 and .22 with a 4X32 airgun scope. I took it home and sighted it in - sort of. Using a rest the rifle would shoot two, sometimes three shots into a group and throw the next one or two at 15 yards. At 25 yards it would not group good enough to ever hit the squirrel spinner. I tried the .22 barrel but it was about the same. When I was a kid we all wished we could own a Beeman as they were known as the best. This one is no better than the 50 year old Hy-Score I'm using other than being more powerful.

This brings me to my Henry Youth model levergun. It has awesome fit and finish and I can't complain about the quality or price. However, the darn thing will not group any kind of ammo from S - LR among several brands and types into less than an inch for 5 shots at 25 yards. My old Marlin, Wards and Springfield .22 rifles that I used as a kid would put 5 shots into a nickel at 25 yards and in fact helped me obtain Distinguished Expert in the NRA Smallbore class and Expert in the Light Rifle class.

While the trend among modern centerfire rifle manufacturers is to advertise MOA accuracy (particularly in bolt guns) we are seeing a bunch of new centerfire rifles that can't shoot 2 MOA at 100 yards (3 shot group). Also a bunch of quality issues have come up, notable to this forum the Marlin leverguns.

Am I expecting too much in accuracy or quality? Were we spoiled 40, 30, even 20 years ago? Rant off.

[Nath]

You are correct as ever Joe, sad ain't it.

N.

[.45colt]

Companies do not want to pay EXPERIENCED SKILLED HELP today. it is a fact,and it shows in everything we buy. You could bet that the Winchester,Marlin,and Savage rifles and Colt and S&W revolvers that were made 60-100 years ago had Men who took Great Pride in the Job. And it was demanded of them. Not so today.More machines less Human hands. Most places it's Gone with the Wind. .

[Pisgah]

Certainly, we do not see old-style hand work in today's guns, except on custom jobs, and we don't see the same materials we saw in the past. Whether or not these things translate in to lack of quality or not is a matter of opinion, and certainly arguable -- mainly deppends on how you define quality, I suppose.

But I do not believe for a minute that we are seeing lesser accuracy or poorer quality control from the majority of manufacturers. Especially when it comes to accuracy, I think we have become spoiled. Three or four decades ago a hunting rifle that would approach MOA accuacy out-of-the-box with factory ammo was a rare gem. Today, it is expected.

I believe what we see is the effect of the Internet. You have to realize that the vast majority of firearm purchasers never post a thing online about their purchases, good or bad. And while you can read many posts praising whatever gun may be in question, the human tendency is to post gripes quickly, loudly and long if you have them, and contentedly (and quietly) go on about your business if you don't.

In a way, it is akin to the widespread perception that violent crimes in the US have skyrocketed. It just ain't so, but there is now far more, and more widely and rapidly-dispersed, coverage of violent crimes. An example -- I heard a report of a policeman shot and killed while serving a warrant in an apartment complex in, I believe, New Jersey over the weekend. Even 20 years ago, such a sad event wouldn't have been reported at all in my neck of the woods or anywhere else, except in the area where it happened.

[Nath]

I've seen fellers all puffed up with themselves after just buying an expensive rifle and then spending weeks trying to get the thing shooting as tight as a cheaper made rifle.

I have by comparison had to straighten stocks on cheaper made rifles but never on an expensive brand!

It's probably just best to expect issues!

Nath.

[fordwannabe]

On a side note I would try several different brands and weights of pellets in that thing before you consider it no good. The finickiest of guns will surprize you with the right projectile. As with a .22 rimfire, air guns can show a huge preference for a certain weight or style of pellet. Just a thought. Tom

[JB]

Yesterday I owned a high-powered adult air rifle for about 2 hours. I have a life sized bright orange ground squirrel spinner target that the boys and I shoot in the back at 25 yards. We do have neighbors a couple hundred yards away on both sides so I try to keep the centerfire to a minimum and the rimfire down to 50 rounds or less at once. We've been using some old air rifles I had when I was a kid, but they aren't powerful enough to spin the target so we know we hit it.

I bought a Beeman Dual-Caliber air rifle with scope for $98. It came with two barrels, .177 and .22 with a 4X32 airgun scope. I took it home and sighted it in - sort of. Using a rest the rifle would shoot two, sometimes three shots into a group and throw the next one or two at 15 yards. At 25 yards it would not group good enough to ever hit the squirrel spinner. I tried the .22 barrel but it was about the same. When I was a kid we all wished we could own a Beeman as they were known as the best. This one is no better than the 50 year old Hy-Score I'm using other than being more powerful.

Those cheap Spanish made Beemans aren't in the same league as the better German made Beeman imports. I hated when they stuck the Beeman name on the cheap guns. Gamo has been selling a pile of the cheap Spanish stuff, so I guess Beeman saw the dollar signs and wanted a share of that market. If you want a quality spring powered airgun, stick with the German made Beemans or RWS rifles.

[Ysabel Kid]

Who said, "I'm only interested in accurate guns"?

Keith? Well, whoever said it was spot on the money. A gun, whether a firearm or airgun, is pretty much worthless if it is not reasonably accurate and consistent. For a firearm, all you end up with is a loud money-consuming stick. Sure, some things are interesting for their history or due to personal relevance, but for a new purchase? Make it accurate or leave me out!

[OldWin]

I am a machinist and have worked in the same place on the same product for 23 years. Quality is an often used word today but I can tell you that rarely is it a singular goal. Cost and efficiency are just as important. It is true that today's NC machine tools are capable of more accuracy and repeatability than the old manuals ever were but only if you use them that way. Just as big a benefit to companies is their speed and flexibility. The NC machine tool is solely responsible for the reproduction of all the old guns that we love. Manual machines with jig and fixture made these guns extremely expensive to produce. From a strictly dimensional stand point today's gun may be better but few would argue that the "quality" of originals was superior. That is the time in the product showing. Another example is revolvers. There are so many compounding tolerances and variables that it's so wonder they work let alone be accurate. Especially given the tools they had in 1836. A thing or two has been learned in 175 years about making revolvers, this is why they have generally been more accurate than autos out of the box from reputable companies when statistically they shouldn't be. You see autos quickly closing the gap because they are making more of them. The importance of continuous production cannot be overstated.
I happen to know the guy who calibrated Marlins surface plates and he told me their shop was like going back in time, old manual machines and all. I bet where they are made now is a model of modern manufacture and documentation would prove that quality is up across the board. The end product though doesn't necessarily reflect that. They will get it ironed out but they will always be a little "different" to an old Marlin guy. Just like a repro 73. Sorry for the long post.

[OldWin]

YK

I believe it was Townsend Whelen but I could be mistaken.

[fordwannabe]

Sir you are correct! it was Whelen.

[jnyork]

I cant remember the last time I bought a "new" firearm, must be at least 30 years. I have bought a ton of "new to me" firearms but all are relics of at least the 1960's or older. They made real guns back then.

[Ben_Rumson]

My take on it ... We now serve as QC for the manufacturer...they come out time ahead on it that way...Some folks may be newbies and not know what to expect as far as accuracy goes and never do complain to the manufacturer... manufacturer comes out ahead on it...The squeaky wheels will usually get what they were supposed to get in the first place...The rest just handle it in some way...manufacturer comes out ahead on it...

[Blaine]

Seems like my 40 year old CrossMan 760 pump up was real good at hitting, and still shoots as good and as hard as it did when I got it with my paper route money in the sixties.

[FWiedner]

Maybe I expect less of my guns, but when I get a 'new' gun I work it or break it in until it does what I want.

I don't expect MOA accuracy out of every gun, but it's nice when I can get one tuned up to that level of performance. If a gun never rises to a level of accuracy that suits the assigned purpose, it gets reassigned to closet duty. It will be a volley gun when the invading hoard appears on the horizon.

Maybe the old standard applies: Shoot the gun more more, or learn more about the gun.

Or, as my buddy used to say, "Maybe you're holding your tounge wrong."

[BenT]

My son's henry youth 22 did best with Winchester target , about 3/4 of inch, but the bulk federals held at an inch. The remingtons were about an 1 1/2 .

Quality is based on what the marketing department says it should be.

[tman]

It's sad, and i'm hearing more or it. It should be a rare exception for a firearm to slipp past factory QC. I refuse to purchase a brand new firearm, only to have to return it to have the bugs worked out. Because I'm employed in the manufactoring industry, i'm all too aware of corporate policy to undercut the quality workforce and replace it with cheap labor. My work place is not the exception, but the RULE. I refuse to purchase a new firearm until this situation changes. The idiot corporate pukes are slaves to quarterley Wall Street finacial expectations. This is killing what's left of our manufactoring Base. This ain't the way our great country was built and WW2 was won. Sorry to vent

[Bogie35]

From my experience (although I wasn't familiar with guns back then), the quality of today's other products (across the board) is not even close to what it was 40 years ago. Does any appliance last for more than 5 years anymore??? Everything seems to be built to fail these days, so the manufacturer can either get your business back sooner or sell you an "extended warranty".

Bogie

[Marlin32]

Sadly this country has forgotten how to build anything. No longer any pride in work.
Foriegn country stuff infiltrates the market because now people are used to stuff and will buy stuff.

Not just guns either. Bought a snowblower this fall, didn't work first time I wanted and needed to use it!! THEN the store that sold it to me, Lowe's didn't want to give me a new one. Well, lets just say the succombed to the pressure and gave me a new one, but I really had to work for it.

Wish I had the money, as I would have bought Marlin myself. I think the gun industry for one needs to get out of the Northeast and industrial areas and move to the Midwest. There is still a remenant of work eithic and pride in workmanship here. Shrinking every day, but still here. Don't have the enormous union wage/benefit issues here either.

[El Chivo]

I feel your pain; I bought a Gamo "Silent Cat" and have only shot it once. The groups were huge and I couldn't get it on the paper with the supplied scope cranked all the way up. I'll be trying some other pellets but it looks like I'll be sticking with my Benjamin Sheridan for real shootin' (another bird fell to its wicked accuracy last time out).

[cshold]

[quote="jnyork"]I cant remember the last time I bought a "new" firearm, must be at least 30 years. I have bought a ton of "new to me" firearms but all are relics of at least the 1960's or older. They made real guns back then.[/quote]

[SFRanger7GP]

It is sad but we are getting what we are willing to pay for. The US consumer does not want quality if it costs more. They want cheap. Combine that with the fact that most people cannot shoot to the capability of their firearm. Even people who attempt to buy quality revert to being cheap and screw up the quality. Example: They buy a rifle capable of good accuracy and then put the cheapest sighting system they can buy on it; buy the cheapest overseas military surplus ammo to fire; and don't even own a cleaning kit or carrying case. We even accept it in the gun rags. However, we go to another extreme; we accept the low standards of an "expert".

The average gun article now days has "Honest Bill Gunman" writing about expensive firearms (a lot of which look like any off the shelf synthetic stocked rifle) built by the "only gunsmith capable of making an accurate, reliable firearm" for a mere $3000+. You look at his accuracy results and they are average at best or they have the most useless load available shooting inside MOA. If it doesn't shoot up to its price, there is always the standard excuse about wind, rain, cold, air, sun, the economy, I have bones in my hands, etc. Come on, he is shooting at 100yds! Then they throw that line about "with some tweaking, it will be capable of fine accuracy". Come on, if this gunsmith couldn't "tweak it" or have the pride in craft to make sure it was up to standard, why should we buy it? Because "Honest Bill" said so.

Sorry, just adding to 86er's rant. I am very bored with our cheap, but "tactical" gun craze.

[fordwannabe]

WARNING OPINION AHEAD!!!!! It seems to me we traded in, making the best widget and having people buy them, for making the cheapest thing you can and people making money on the stock offering. No free lunches here, if they don't make quality widgets people are gonna buy foreign stuff of questionable quality, but cheaper, if the good ol USA stuff is of questionable quality anyway. I have very few new guns that make me sit up and take notice,1st I like proven stuff and am not a gotta have the newest because sometimes it doesn't really work out. Anybody remeber the electrically fired rounds remington tried a few years ago?
Number 2, history a new gun don't have any!
Rant over. Tom

[olyinaz]

Wish I had the money, as I would have bought Marlin myself. I think the gun industry for one needs to get out of the Northeast and industrial areas and move to the Midwest. There is still a remenant of work eithic and pride in workmanship here. Shrinking every day, but still here. Don't have the enormous union wage/benefit issues here either.

There's no less a "remnant" in the Northeast and those union wages and benefits you decry are what made those jobs worth having!

Oly

[tman]

Wish I had the money, as I would have bought Marlin myself. I think the gun industry for one needs to get out of the Northeast and industrial areas and move to the Midwest. There is still a remenant of work eithic and pride in workmanship here. Shrinking every day, but still here. Don't have the enormous union wage/benefit issues here either.

There's no less a "remnant" in the Northeast and those union wages and benefits you decry are what made those jobs worth having!

Oly

Well said! you won't get skilled craftsman to work for Wallmart wages. They will take their skills elsewhere, or start their own buisnesses. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

[765x53]

Most air rifle aficionados claim it takes a full can of 500 pellets for new spring piston air rifle to break-in and achieve its accuracy potential.
Not only the barrel but, also the piston, valves and spring need to break-in and settle down.
Don't give up on your air rifle after one range session.