The ricochet

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:02 am

What exactly happens when a bullet recochets?

1. hits ground, rock or tree and then tumbles, end over end, soon falling to ground?
2. as above but continues unstable rotation continueing on for a greater distance than when it tumbles?
3. when bullet hits something and bounces off (ricochets) in most cases with most bullets there would be significant bullet nose deformation which would add to it's instability.

So with both bullet deformation and serious interuption of rotation would seem, in most cases, that bullet would not go a great distance after impact.

Still, depending on bullet construction and type of object hit the distance a bullet travels after impact could vary considerably. Say from 100 yds after impact to 1 mile?

Also the angle of impact would have much to do with the magnitude of impact thus making for great variation in bullet deformation and rotational disturbance and hence distance traveled after impact.

I would say the bullets that would travel the least distance after impact would be the fragile "varmit bullets" traveling 3800-4000 fps. Just can't see them going much further after impact. Expect they often explode on impact.

Of course much of my reason for this topic has to do with safe shooting.

Additions to and clarifications of the above appreciated.

Don McCullough

cutter · Post by **cutter** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:36 pm

I remember a study contesting the validity of 'shotgun only' hunting areas.
It seems that testing confirmed that a 1 ounce 12ga slug would deflect easier and travel further that a deflected FMJ 308 round.

It does make sense that larger, slower moving, projectiles would travel further after deflection. Maybe because of the inherent stability of a slug that size? High velocity projectiles of a small caliber seem to break up easier because of the extreme RPM .

Point in case, a friend missed a deer last year because his 140 gr 6.5mm Swede struck a honey suckle vine about 15 feet in front of where the deer was standing. I would like to think a 405 gr slug from a 45 govt would have at least contacted the target at that distance.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:43 pm

Don,

Ricochets are variable, in other words it depends just like you said.

I've had "bounce back ricochets" from .45 slugs scream past my head sounding like a buzz saw, then I've had bullets, usually .22s, "glance ricochet" and you could hear them screaming off in the distance for ever.

Water is the worst thing for ricochets. Some years back there was an article in the paper about a young woman who was killed while driving her car near the ocean. Witnesses said she slumped over in the seat and her car just coasted down till it came to a stop. They found a bullet hole in the side of her head.
Nothing but ocean out to the side the bullet came from. Turns out a fisherman was shooting at sharks well over a mile out to sea. One of his bullets glanced off the water and killed that gal.

Safety is paramount, you gotta be aware of your backstop.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:01 pm

I know that patched .45 round balls from my Kentucky ricochet worse than any other gun I have used.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:22 pm

I'm not a scientist but I think that rotational momentum is harder to stop that directional momentum. In other words I think an object wants to keep spinning & that everything else being equal a projectile with a higher rotational velocity will ricochet less. Deformation changes everything when somethings spinning a few hundred thousand times a minute.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:27 pm

J Miller wrote:

I've had "bounce back ricochets" from .45 slugs scream past my head...

Joe, what were you shooting at when that happened?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:48 pm

claybob86 wrote:
J Miller wrote:

I've had "bounce back ricochets" from .45 slugs scream past my head...
Joe, what were you shooting at when that happened?

A flat rock about 50' away

. Last time I did that I'll tell you.
My cousin was standing to my right. He heard it before I did and was on the way to the ground. I had my ear muffs on and didn't hear it till it went right past my head.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:57 pm

Watching tracers that hit the ground and trees in the army showed me that they can go a long way and be very unpredictable. 50 cals being shot at vehicles in a valley maybe 1/2 to 3/4 a mile away caused ricochets that went two to three times the distance to the targets and then we just lost them because they burned out and they definitely weren't tumbling. M16s fired into a woods went in every direction. The only safe thing is when it stops where the target is.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:13 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_516lll2Ck

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:24 pm

Reckon theres a huge difference between FMJ & a SP when they hit something.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:25 pm

First Experience:
In early 1970 I had to drive myself over 70 miles to a hospital to get several bullet fragments removed from my head. (Safest place for me to be hit?

) I fired the shot at a can, lying on the ground and about 20 - 25' away.
I thought at first I had finally blown up a gun. But after looking, that wasn't it. My .44 Mag. Contender was still in one piece - uh, so to speak.
Forceps were used to take out the first piece. It had entered at the upper left side of my mouth. It was taken from my cheek, near the back, inside of my mouth.
Curved forceps were used for the piece that hit my forehead and slid between my scalp and skull to slightly beyond the top of my head. They slipped them into the cut it made on my forehead and slid them to the piece, clamped on it and slid it out.
They then waited for an operating room to remove the piece that went into my chin and partially splattered against my chin bone. That was when I still smoked and while waiting I found that I had to hold the place on my upper lip closed to take a draw from a cigarette; otherwise I just sucked globs of blood through my newly made "Cheek Channel."
After they removed several pieces from my chin (and left many smaller pieces there), and after they released me the next day, I went to the place where I was shooting to investigate what had happened. The can was still about where it had been- with a bullet hole in it (at least that part worked right). In a search of the area, I found an old iron fencepost laying down, under the grass. It was one of those with a "W" shaped end cross-section. It had a nice fresh bullet mark on it where the bullet made it's "U-turn" to come back to me; thankfully in smaller pieces.

Second:
My friend shot at a fresh target on a holder that he had been using for several years. We heard the sound of a ricochet and the sound of his car window breaking. It was parked off to our right.

Third:
A friend and I went to pick up a deer for slaughter so we could give the meat to the poor. When we got there the deer was still alive and on its feet. The cop stood straight in front of it and was getting ready to shoot it with his duty 9MM. I told him I had a more appropriate weapon but he said his 9 would do it. He shot and the deer staggered, but didn't go down. Unfortunately, the front window of a nearby house did - in many pieces. But was that LEO embarrassed!

Fourth:
Many, many years ago I read an article by Elmer Keith in which some African game had been shot and the bullet came back towards the hunter. I have always respected everything I read by Elmer, but back then (in my foolish youth) I really doubted that story. Today I don't!

Wow! Just saw the .50 BMG shot after posting. Well, that explains a lot, doesn't it!

Grace and Peace,

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:46 pm

Dont shoot at sparrows inside a silo!

Cherokee · Post by **Cherokee** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:08 pm

Shooting my M1 Carbine FMJ at a hard steel plate many years ago. Got smacked in the forehead. Spent some time picking the jacket out of the hole it had cut. Bandaide time.

Another time, several of us were shooting rats at the dump. We went back to the drivers car, which had been to our backs while shooting, and there was a 22 dent on the door just below the driver window.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:29 pm

Shot a Saturn car door with #7 shot and got peppered at 10 yards.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:50 pm

Rick O`Shey... I went to school with him.

The other kind is very unpredictable and is best avoided. I don`t shoot at any hard flat serface or at water.
The .50`s do go everywhere when they hit the ground. I took a neet photo , Time lapse , while on the tank commander qualification course in Graffenvier Germany and it lookes like an upsidedown Christmas tree with tracers going in every direction. If I can find it I will scan it and post.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:58 pm

I think you better reckon that any theory that says a ricocheting bullet is harmless and won't go any where is wrong.

Lead pistol bullets shot into the dirt on flat ground frequently would ricochet up at least 25 high feet into a hill 70 yds behind the targets we were shooting. As did the jacketed pistol bullets. Don't assume it is safe behind where you are shooting.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:25 pm

From a distance watching mini guns fire at night was always interesting..don't know how many bullets were going into the ground, but there were enough bouncing back up to make it look like water splashing at the end of a hose..

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:32 pm

Oh I dont think I said its harmless. I just dont think its the same shooting lead pointed hunting ammo & military ball ammo. If you do then I imagine you dont hunt, seeing as a bullet can go anywhere & who knows how far after going thru an animal or for that matter even shooting at a range cant be safe.
Alot of the reports we hear are from pieces of jacket, not nice for sure but not the same as a whole bullet either & if a bit further away pretty unlikely to do much damage.

Theres always extremes & will always be examples of what could happen.
That doesn't make it the norm. A 223 ball round wil hold together & bounce God only knows where knows where, a 223 SP varmint round will disintegrate on a ground hog. So you cant just say a 223 will ricochet like crazy.
I guess, because I believe & trust the folks that say it, that a 50BMG round will bounce all over, makes sense, its built to hold together to a much grater degree than what we shoot. Use an expanding hunting bullet & it would probably come apart & the pieces being unstable wouldn't go as far.

I can only speak from my experience & extrapolate a bit on it useing common sense. In my meager experience slow bullets bounce around & back more & fast bullets splat & disintegrate.

Heck, the sheer volume of gun shots every year that cause zero harm I think is good evidence that usually bullets dont go far after hitting something.

None of that is intended to say its a no worry situation. I
'v had bullets bounce back at me & its scary stuff. But it was always slow things. 38's 22's.
We were shooting a perferated 20 lb propane can a few years back & my son took a shot & I noticed something a few yards ahead of the bench. Went to take a look & there was a handful of pancaked 38's. They bounced back to within a few yards of the bench. Pretty spooky but its easy to see that they werent going far shaped like that.
Hard cast are a different story. I'v recovered them from the hill amazingly intact & I'v no doubt a glancing hit would send them into orbit about like a FMJ.

I'm always watchful of whats behind my target. The danger of a ricochet I thought was whats on the other side of the hill or a mile down the road. If thats the case I think most times things are pretty safe over there with normal SP or lead ammo as long as the shooter is remotely responsible.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:29 pm

Oh, I didn't mean to be challenging you so much Lever as the idea that it is necessarily less dangerous; some folks state it as if it is and I don't think you are one from knowing you here; my apologies if it sounded that way about you. But, I would bet hunting ammo can act just like FMJ if it is deflected. It doesn't necessarily deform hitting the ground at an incidence angle of a couple of degrees or if it hits a rock or what ever. The point is it is dangerous if you don't know what it is going to do. Hitting a deer is different.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:28 pm

No biggie,
I just wanted to make sure I was understood.
Theyre all dangerous no doubt about it but different bullets are more prone to it than others is all.

Theres no apology needed really, we're just discussing something, heck, looking back over my post I might should apologize.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:42 pm

We don't shoot bowling pins with 22s anymore. My wife shot one about 25 yards away. I was standing about 10 feet to her right and one of those little suckers came back and whacked my stomach. Didn't penetrate, but it sure stung!

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:54 pm

Dude, apology, not to me my friend - I always appreciate your view. If I see your moniker I generally read the post.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:51 am

My Uncle has had three ricochets hit him at shoots we have gone to. I've had a piece of a 30-30 ricochet and hit me in the hand when shooting at a steel target about 30 yards away.