OT- Strength Of Damascus Barrels....Kind of made me chuckle.

[Ben_Rumson]

[C. Cash]

Very funny indeed! It ain't always so, is it?

[gundownunder]

Living proof that sometimes the gods take care of the fools they have created.

[Mike D.]

In my youth had a L.C. Smith Damascus barreled double that was using shot everything from low base 12 Ga loads to 2 3/4" magnum shells. Nothing ever happened to that gun, it worked perfectly every time.

[Nath]

Amazing, and steel barrels never burst do they

N.

[Chas.]

My experience is similar to Mike's. In my youth, I wanted a SxS something terrible, but had little to no funds. I found an Acme brand (believe it or not), 12ga. with hammers, in the back of a little hardware store in a mining town in Va. I think it was $15. The barrel said it was Belgium Laminated Steel. In my infinite knowledge, I knew that Belgium Laminated Steel wasn't the same as Damascus. I dove hunted with that thing for several years, shooting whatever I could get ahold of, including "high-brass" shells. It never failed.

[J Miller]

I admit to knowing less than zero about Damascus barrels. However somewhere in my past I read an article about them. It said; if my memory serves correctly, that it wasn't so much that Damascus barrels were week, but that if corrosion from the black powder and corrosive priming had worked it's way between the layers of the barrels it would severely weaken them.

Just a thought.

Joe

[cshold]

LOL Nath,
You said it all with the rolling of the eyes…

If I had a barrel rupture, I would much prefer a twist or Damascus unravel than shrapnel
from a fluid steel barrel blowup.

Nath, you’re from the land of some of the finest English and British doubles ever made.
What is the general consensus of using those fine old Damascus girls on your side
of the pond?

[M. M. Wright]

What Jmiller said,

When I was a kid, I had numerous damascus doubles. There was an auction house nearby and I would buy them if they went for less than $5. But, about 3 years ago I obtained one and shot it with black powder loads. It leaked gasses through places where the solder had corroded away. Retired that thing immediately even though it didn't rupture. Sometimes it would blow the forearm off. Not a good thing.

M. M.

[Nath]

LOL Nath,
You said it all with the rolling of the eyes…

If I had a barrel rupture, I would much prefer a twist or Damascus unravel than shrapnel
from a fluid steel barrel blowup.

Nath, you’re from the land of some of the finest English and British doubles ever made.
What is the general consensus of using those fine old Damascus girls on your side
of the pond?

There are hundreds of them on sale, many re prooved for todays shells! Some just have their BP proof.

I see them used on driven shoots too sometimes.

Years ago I knew a young feller that used his grandpas gun, I remember him saying a hot jet would escape from a split in the barrel wall!

Fill them tubes with snow or mud and it don't matter what they are made of!

I remember reading what Joe remembers too. I passed on a M/L onces due to some iron that had rusted away nearly through in one spot. Shame really as apart from that it was in very good shape.

Nath.

[cshold]

So bottom line, as it is today,
It all comes down to the care given of the owner/owners
over the years.

[Mescalero]

I have some old barrels (Damacus),
saving them to make knives out of when I get the forge going.

[JReed]

So bottom line, as it is today,
It all comes down to the care given of the owner/owners
over the years.

Just like old black powder cartridge guns.

[jhrosier]

Like many others, I had and used a damascus barreled shotgun with modern loads in my younger days.
I probably used up all of my good luck in so doing and that is probably why I don't get any winning lottery tickets these days.

All that being said. If I had a damascus barreled shotgun in good shape, with no signs of corrosion in or out, and it was tightly breeched, I would consider shooting it from time to time with black powder shells.
However, such a gun would probably be well out of my price range these days anyway.

Jack

[Sixgun]

Yea, most of us semi-old heads have been there and done that with the old hammer doubles. In my early days of CAS, I shot one in competition using up, don't know, maybe 5-800 rounds. Then I sold it to a guy who knows what he is doing with the blackpowder stuff, Griff

Some years back I did have the oppotunity to handle an original 1893 Winchester pump (preceded the 1897--about the same gun but with softer steel) that had come apart with one round of smokeless. The chamber end was opened up like a tuna can.------------Sixgun

[6pt-sika]

I have a trio of old W.C.Scott hammerless damascus shotguns and ALL are capable of handling moderately loaded smokeless loads as well as a nice old Parker 16 gauge hammerless .

Incidently just about 10 days ago I flattened a less then bright Virginia Whitetail at 26 yards with the old W.C Scott 10 gauge that belonged to my maternal grandfather for over 50 years !
I used a load Ross Seyfried used in a gun exactly like mine for 1 1/4 ounces of shot . But instead of using the shot I put twelve 00 Buck pellets in !
Shooting this load offhand at 25 yards on a pattern board one shot from each barrel gave me a 15" pattern with ALL 24 pellets accounted for inside the circle !

That deer also happened to be the first deer I have EVER killed with buckshot . Kinda cool it was with my grandfathers old 10 gauge and a load I assembled myself .

[Hobie]

That IS just too cool Craig!

[6pt-sika]

Oh yeah . I might add !


We're going to do a late season dove hunt here on wednesday . I already have 50 rounds of 2 7/8" 10 gauge loaded with 1 1/4 ounces of #8 shot for the event .

I've been shooting the old gun at skeet a bit over the last couple months and it isn't difficult to shoot about 95% at skeet with the old cannon .

[cshold]

I have a trio of old W.C.Scott hammerless damascus shotguns and ALL are capable of handling moderately loaded smokeless loads as well as a nice old Parker 16 gauge hammerless .

Incidently just about 10 days ago I flattened a less then bright Virginia Whitetail at 26 yards with the old W.C Scott 10 gauge that belonged to my maternal grandfather for over 50 years !
I used a load Ross Seyfried used in a gun exactly like mine for 1 1/4 ounces of shot . But instead of using the shot I put twelve 00 Buck pellets in !
Shooting this load offhand at 25 yards on a pattern board one shot from each barrel gave me a 15" pattern with ALL 24 pellets accounted for inside the circle !

That deer also happened to be the first deer I have EVER killed with buckshot . Kinda cool it was with my grandfathers old 10 gauge and a load I assembled myself .

Awesome

[stanforth]

I am a 67 year old Englishman and in my youth we only used Damascuss guns as they were all we could afford.
My sport was Wildfowling (Duck and goose hunting) in the wildest places along the shoreline of England. We used the maximum loads we could squeeze in. I have destroyed a fluid steel barrel but never a damascuss one.
In the 1960's I started working with with an older (well he seemed old to me then) gunsmith and he always maintianed that an English damascuss gun was far safer than one with a steel barrel.
The above only relates to English Damascuss and twist barrels as I was warned off Belgian guns by the same old gunsmith.
When I started my own gun business in the 1970's I specialised in browning damascuss barrels and one of the great joys in life to me is seeing the pattern come out over the days and weeks necessary to brown a barrel properly.
Happy New Year from the UK

[Nath]

I have a trio of old W.C.Scott hammerless damascus shotguns and ALL are capable of handling moderately loaded smokeless loads as well as a nice old Parker 16 gauge hammerless .

Incidently just about 10 days ago I flattened a less then bright Virginia Whitetail at 26 yards with the old W.C Scott 10 gauge that belonged to my maternal grandfather for over 50 years !
I used a load Ross Seyfried used in a gun exactly like mine for 1 1/4 ounces of shot . But instead of using the shot I put twelve 00 Buck pellets in !
Shooting this load offhand at 25 yards on a pattern board one shot from each barrel gave me a 15" pattern with ALL 24 pellets accounted for inside the circle !

That deer also happened to be the first deer I have EVER killed with buckshot . Kinda cool it was with my grandfathers old 10 gauge and a load I assembled myself .

Awesome

Ditto But! Where was the field report???

N

[cshold]

I am a 67 year old Englishman and in my youth we only used Damascuss guns as they were all we could afford.
My sport was Wildfowling (Duck and goose hunting) in the wildest places along the shoreline of England. We used the maximum loads we could squeeze in. I have destroyed a fluid steel barrel but never a damascuss one.
In the 1960's I started working with with an older (well he seemed old to me then) gunsmith and he always maintianed that an English damascuss gun was far safer than one with a steel barrel.
The above only relates to English Damascuss and twist barrels as I was warned off Belgian guns by the same old gunsmith.When I started my own gun business in the 1970's I specialised in browning damascuss barrels and one of the great joys in life to me is seeing the pattern come out over the days and weeks necessary to brown a barrel properly.
Happy New Year from the UK

Thanks, and very interesting....

"During the time that all of the opening mechanisms were being perfected, the science of barrel production seemed to lag, especially in America. The simplest solution was to purchase barrel tubes from England and Europe. Although the grade of the early Parkers were not marked either in the catalogs or on the guns, the type of barrel steel was the main determining factor. The lowest grade used English Twist steel, and ascended to the highest six-blade Damascus at the top grade. Belgium Damascus is thought to be Parker’s largest supplier, but research is underway to shed light on the importation of barrel steel. French Damascus steel, trade name, Bernard Steel, was used later on one specific grade. English made Whitworth Fluid Steel was an option near the end of the century for Parker’s two highest grades. Experiments were conducted on different types of steel during the period 1868-1878, and some actually made it to market. These were not successful because of both weight and strength. They were designated as plain steel (gun iron), decarbonized steel and laminated steel. All three were discontinued by 1878. So the imported Damascus steel became the barrels of choice of the American sportsman, and the controversy of their strength is being debated even today. In the last years of the 19th Century high quality fluid steel became available from Europe. The American steels dominate within ten years. By the end of World War I, Damascus was no longer available."

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I am a 67 year old Englishman and in my youth we only used Damascuss guns as they were all we could afford.
My sport was Wildfowling (Duck and goose hunting) in the wildest places along the shoreline of England. We used the maximum loads we could squeeze in. I have destroyed a fluid steel barrel but never a damascuss one.
In the 1960's I started working with with an older (well he seemed old to me then) gunsmith and he always maintianed that an English damascuss gun was far safer than one with a steel barrel.
The above only relates to English Damascuss and twist barrels as I was warned off Belgian guns by the same old gunsmith.
When I started my own gun business in the 1970's I specialised in browning damascuss barrels and one of the great joys in life to me is seeing the pattern come out over the days and weeks necessary to brown a barrel properly.
Happy New Year from the UK

I agree. It's more about the quality and care. I've read where some of the old Damascus Cape guns were re-proofed way beyond the smokeless levels of their modern counterparts. You get what you pay for.

[fordwannabe]

I have several damascus barreled sxs, that I still use often(as often as I can anyway), I load BP shells though. 5-6 years ago 13 of us went on a pheasant hunt in PA with mostly BP shotguns and it was a HOOT. A couple of the fellows didn't have and could not borrow BP guns sooooo they used BP shells in their modern guns. The guides just kept looking at us as if we were "not all there", but we amused ourselves. Great fun and not real expensive I have gotten most of my BP sxs for $100 to $300( a couple well above that but we don't have to discuss that with my wife ...right).I love it when the auctioneer stands at the front of the room and says "rememer boys you can't ever shoot these things", just keep talking fella, everytime he says it the price drops. I do however test each new firearm with it tied to a tire for a few shots, and my ammo is LOW POWERED. Good luck but be safe with these things. Tom

[KirkD]

Sherman Bell published a series of tests in The double gun journal about a year or so ago. He fired modern smokeless proof loads in quite a few beaters with Damascus barrels (and I emphasize 'beaters'). He took detailed internal and external measurements before and after. All barrels handled the powerful modern smokeless proof loads with no problem although one or two actions loosened up slightly. I think he pretty well laid to rest the urban/ shooting myth that Damascus barrels are dangerous and should not be fired.

[cshold]

Sherman Bell published a series of tests in The double gun journal about a year or so ago. He fired modern smokeless proof loads in quite a few beaters with Damascus barrels (and I emphasize 'beaters'). He took detailed internal and external measurements before and after. All barrels handled the powerful modern smokeless proof loads with no problem although one or two actions loosened up slightly. I think he pretty well laid to rest the urban/ shooting myth that Damascus barrels are dangerous and should not be fired.

AMEN

[stanforth]

I am a 67 year old Englishman and in my youth we only used Damascuss guns as they were all we could afford.
My sport was Wildfowling (Duck and goose hunting) in the wildest places along the shoreline of England. We used the maximum loads we could squeeze in. I have destroyed a fluid steel barrel but never a damascuss one.
In the 1960's I started working with with an older (well he seemed old to me then) gunsmith and he always maintianed that an English damascuss gun was far safer than one with a steel barrel.
The above only relates to English Damascuss and twist barrels as I was warned off Belgian guns by the same old gunsmith.When I started my own gun business in the 1970's I specialised in browning damascuss barrels and one of the great joys in life to me is seeing the pattern come out over the days and weeks necessary to brown a barrel properly.
Happy New Year from the UK

Thanks, and very interesting....

"During the time that all of the opening mechanisms were being perfected, the science of barrel production seemed to lag, especially in America. The simplest solution was to purchase barrel tubes from England and Europe. Although the grade of the early Parkers were not marked either in the catalogs or on the guns, the type of barrel steel was the main determining factor. The lowest grade used English Twist steel, and ascended to the highest six-blade Damascus at the top grade. Belgium Damascus is thought to be Parker’s largest supplier, but research is underway to shed light on the importation of barrel steel. French Damascus steel, trade name, Bernard Steel, was used later on one specific grade. English made Whitworth Fluid Steel was an option near the end of the century for Parker’s two highest grades. Experiments were conducted on different types of steel during the period 1868-1878, and some actually made it to market. These were not successful because of both weight and strength. They were designated as plain steel (gun iron), decarbonized steel and laminated steel. All three were discontinued by 1878. So the imported Damascus steel became the barrels of choice of the American sportsman, and the controversy of their strength is being debated even today. In the last years of the 19th Century high quality fluid steel became available from Europe. The American steels dominate within ten years. By the end of World War I, Damascus was no longer available."

Sorry. What I should have pointed out was that some of the Belgian barrels were of dubious quality therefore the advice was to avaoid all of them with Belgian proof marks.
The Belians did in fact produce super damascuss but they also produced some deadfull single iron and two iron twist even at time etching a fine damascuss pattern on them.

[dgslyr]

35 years ago or so I worked part time for a gunsmith.One day a fellow in his late 60's or ealy 70's brought in a damascus barreled side by side with a broken hammer spring on one side.His grandson was with him.My employer refused to work on it. The guy really didn't like this and said he had been shooting that gun since he was a young man.Well he went to a succession of gunsmiths,at least 5,til he found one that would fix his favorite shotgun.About a year or so later the grandson came in with a different repair.My employer asked about the old man and his shotgun.The grandson said that the left barrel gave out the next time he went duck hunting.Cut his hand off at the wrist almost like it had been done with a saw.Back then an ER was a couple of hours away from where they were hunting.He said that took all the starch out of his grandpa and that he passed a few months later.The trouble with damascus barreled guns is that the first time is the only time you have trouble with them.

[KirkD]

I sure feel bad for that old-timer. It would sure be interesting to find out why his shotgun blew up. A lot of shotguns have let go over the past half century and I expect most of them were due to obstructions in the barrel, especially if the barrel lets go halfway down where the left hand is and where the pressure has dropped considerable.

[Ben_Rumson]

One of the warnings I remember reading about the barrels is that the pressure from smokeless is heavier farther down the barrel than with BP and the barrels are thinner there...

[cshold]

35 years ago or so I worked part time for a gunsmith.One day a fellow in his late 60's or ealy 70's brought in a damascus barreled side by side with a broken hammer spring on one side.His grandson was with him.My employer refused to work on it. The guy really didn't like this and said he had been shooting that gun since he was a young man.Well he went to a succession of gunsmiths,at least 5,til he found one that would fix his favorite shotgun.About a year or so later the grandson came in with a different repair.My employer asked about the old man and his shotgun.The grandson said that the left barrel gave out the next time he went duck hunting.Cut his hand off at the wrist almost like it had been done with a saw.Back then an ER was a couple of hours away from where they were hunting.He said that took all the starch out of his grandpa and that he passed a few months later.The trouble with damascus barreled guns is that the first time is the only time you have trouble with them.

dgslyr, I would be interested in researching this story. Can you possibly PM me some further details?
35 years is not that long ago. I do not doubt your story, but possibly
the person you heard it from. Very similar stories of people being blown to
pieces by exploding Damascus barrels have been looked into with outcomes
far from the rumor mill pass it on word of mouth reports.

[Nath]

I too feel sad for the ole' gent. The way the story is told however gives reason to assume, to assume the burst was due to the make up of the barrels.

Besides as already mentioned fluid steel tubes burst anyway so,,,,,

Nath.

[6pt-sika]

Went out this morning at sunup for a late season semi snow covered cornfield dove hunt here in central Virginia !

There were four of us !

Youngest man (14) had a 28 gauge O/U , next youngest man (29) had a 12 gauge Remington Model 32 , next to oldest man (42) had a CZ 20 gauge O/U and the oldest man (49 , me !) had the oldest and largest bore gun . My W.C.Scott 10 gauge !

We didn't get a whole bunch of shooting but enough to make it intresting for maybe 2 hours . Sad to say we missed a few ! I ended up with 4 birds from the old 10 gauge !

Perhaps we'll try it again on New Years Eve morning !

Meanwhile I wanna load a few shells with #4 shot ! I think this old cannon needs to take a couple squirrels and possibly a rabbit or two before I leave for the Philippines on 1-15-11

[cshold]

Went out this morning at sunup for a late season semi snow covered cornfield dove hunt here in central Virginia !

There were four of us !

Youngest man (14) had a 28 gauge O/U , next youngest man (29) had a 12 gauge Remington Model 32 , next to oldest man (42) had a CZ 20 gauge O/U and the oldest man (49 , me !) had the oldest and largest bore gun . My W.C.Scott 10 gauge !

We didn't get a whole bunch of shooting but enough to make it intresting for maybe 2 hours . Sad to say we missed a few ! I ended up with 4 birds from the old 10 gauge !

Perhaps we'll try it again on New Years Eve morning !

Meanwhile I wanna load a few shells with #4 shot ! I think this old cannon needs to take a couple squirrels and possibly a rabbit or two before I leave for the Philippines on 1-15-11

6pt-sika, good on you and that o’ll Scotty girl...
I ‘v been using 7.5’s on tree-rat this season. 20+ one shot kills.
Seems the 7.5’s do much less meat damage than the larger size shot.
I have noticed when skinning, most of the shot is between the hide and
body of the squirrel and falls free during skinning. My 30” barrels are F&F
so I can still reach out there a ways and get'em.

[cshold]

I too feel sad for the ole' gent. The way the story is told however gives reason to assume, to assume the burst was due to the make up of the barrels.

Besides as already mentioned fluid steel tubes burst anyway so,,,,,

Nath.

Nath, I'v not heard back from "dgslyr" with any further details.
Unfortunately Nath, you know as well as I, many a twist, Damascus & fluid steel
barrel burst were blamed for everything under the sun to save face.
But the true cause was “Barrel obstruction”

[KCSO]

I started sahooting damascus shotuns over 30 years ago. I was lucky enough to get instruction and some tooling from V. M . Starr and I shot a M/L double he smooted oout for a long time. I just finished reboring a hudson bay doulbe gun for a buddy to use for rabbits. Alltogether I must have worked on over 100 old damascus guns and I still have and shoot four of them. Very few are unsafe with any blackpowder load. I load brass shells and my turkey load is 82 grans of FFg and 1 3/8 ounces of shot. A good quick PRELIMINARY test i was tough is to hang the barrels on a hook and ring them. If they ring like a bell the solder is usually ok and is not rotting the barrels, a dull thunk is a suspect barrel. After thousands of shots through good damascus i have yet to have a barrel come apart or even leak. I have seen barrels ruined by mis use and carelessness.

Now as to my personal test. I take a shotgun and put it in a tire holder and fire it with 2 3/4" duck loads. if it rings, looks good, the barrels ring, the solder is tight and the gun holds 2 3/4 shells in a 2 1/2" bore I figure the gun is good to go.

I also tried to blow up a damascus Baker double some doofus cut off to 12". I worked up to 3" mags and when 3 shots in each barrel didn't do the trick I quit and threw the barrels in the knife making pile.

[Ben_Rumson]

KSCO V. M . Starr... Back in the 80s I read his given advice for loading ML shotguns in "The American Rifleman" magazine.. It worked in our reproduction SxS 12 gauges ..Loading was simplified and we never looked back after that...Ours liked No. 5s... Later we found that a one second burst of WD 40 down each tube after the powder was down & covered with a wad kept them soft and shooting all day.. About every 20 shots we'd have to scrape the burnt powder migration ring build up out of the powder area of the barrels... I know Petro products are supposed to bad for BP but it worked ...The wads had that slippery almost hydraulic sound as they went down.. sometimes air pressure would want to force the wad back up if they were pushed down too fast... Of all the ML guns, the shotgun is my favorite..

[Ben_Rumson]

KSCO ...... V. M . Starr... Back in the 80s I read his given advice for loading ML shotguns in "The American Rifleman" magazine.. It worked in our reproduction SxS 12 gauges ..Loading was simplified and we never looked back after that...Ours liked No. 5s... Later we found that a one second burst of WD 40 down each tube after the powder was down & covered with a wad kept them soft and shooting all day.. About every 20 shots we'd have to scrape the burnt powder migration ring build up out of the powder area of the barrels... I know Petro products are supposed to bad for BP but it worked ...The wads had that slippery almost hydraulic sound as they went down.. sometimes air pressure would want to force the wad back up if they were pushed down too fast... Of all the ML guns, the shotgun is my favorite..

[6pt-sika]

Went out this morning at sunup for a late season semi snow covered cornfield dove hunt here in central Virginia !

There were four of us !

Youngest man (14) had a 28 gauge O/U , next youngest man (29) had a 12 gauge Remington Model 32 , next to oldest man (42) had a CZ 20 gauge O/U and the oldest man (49 , me !) had the oldest and largest bore gun . My W.C.Scott 10 gauge !

We didn't get a whole bunch of shooting but enough to make it intresting for maybe 2 hours . Sad to say we missed a few ! I ended up with 4 birds from the old 10 gauge !

Perhaps we'll try it again on New Years Eve morning !

Meanwhile I wanna load a few shells with #4 shot ! I think this old cannon needs to take a couple squirrels and possibly a rabbit or two before I leave for the Philippines on 1-15-11

6pt-sika, good on you and that o’ll Scotty girl...
I ‘v been using 7.5’s on tree-rat this season. 20+ one shot kills.
Seems the 7.5’s do much less meat damage than the larger size shot.
I have noticed when skinning, most of the shot is between the hide and
body of the squirrel and falls free during skinning. My 30” barrels are F&F
so I can still reach out there a ways and get'em.

I most likely would have not put forth the effort I have with this old 10 gauge if it hadn't belonged to my grandfather !

I think for next season I may have to get some non lead non steel shot that is okay to shoot in a old fixed choke double and try to knock over a duck or two and a Canada goose !

I gave up on turkey hunting 10 years ago , but this spring I may just try again and maybe even enlist some help to knock one over with my old cannon !