45 Colt for BIG game

[gundownunder]

A couple of blokes I know went on a feral camel hunt recently and both complained that their 308s needed follow up kill shots to get the job done after the animals got the adrenaline up.
One of them left a 45-70 at home and the other an 1894 in 45 Colt.
Now I know there is no question about the 45-70 but I suggested to the other that he might have done better with the 45 colt and a big lump of lead to punch all the way through. A big bull camel can go over 1000 LBS so they are not a small beast.
Would anybody know how far a 250 - 300 grain lump of lead at 1500 - 1600 FPS would travel through a big animal like a bear or moose or camel?

[J Miller]

Well, no I can't say for sure, but I did some research a month or so ago and what I found out is this; from a .45 Colt rifle a 300gr bullet at 1500 to 1600 fps (+P heavy load) is the modern equivalent of the old 45-90 black powder 300gr load.
I don't think I'd question the use of a 45-90 against an animal that size, so I'm "fairly" sure the .45 Colt with that load would get the job done ... if the bullet was put in the right place.

Joe

[tman]

Hard to believe a .308 could'nt flatten a camel. Maybe poor shot placement. were they using fmj military ammo?

[.45colt]

In My younger days I loaded the Colt up pretty hot. Paco's top end load of 296 under a hardcast 265gr Keith bullet runs over 1800fps and will punch nice holes thru a 3/8 steel plate from a rifle. I loaded 325gr hardcast over a max charge of H110 for 1500fps and when I missed a varmint low out in the back fourty it got launched skyward. I took a look and found a funny hump in the wet sod. It was easy to run my hand along and using a tape measure found the slug traveled 43". I still have it somewhere. I know this isn't big game but I think that 325gr load. would make any thin skinned critter stop.

[CowboyTutt]

I think we need to make the distinction between "regular" 45 Colt loads and the much more powerful +P 45 Colt loads operating at about 28-30k CUP which in my estimation is what we are all talking about. Just to be clear. -Tutt

[dbateman]

there is no doubt in my mind that the 45colt will stop a camel... but a 308 should to
may be an issue with bullet selection or shot placement

for some reason my favourite camel rifle is my 303-25 ?? it doesn't get used for much else
.Dave

[86er]

We send a group on a cull hunt every year Down Under and the outfitter on that side of the ocean supplies .308 Win rifles for the clients. Last year the ammunition was Federal brand but that's all I know about it. I've not had a complaint about the rifles or ammo supplied by any of the clients in the past 7 years that we have sent folks there. They've also shot feral donkeys and other large critters without any complaints about equipment that was furnished. Now as far as 45 Colt, I've shot a number of small bison, watusi and other animals that weighed less. Most often the load was a 300 gr hardcast at 1730 fps from a Win 94 20" bbl. I did use a 335 grain at 1580 fps and many 300 gr Swift A-Frames at 1700+ fps. The results have been very good, but the track record is not as good as a 45-70 or other 45 caliber with similar bullet weight and velocity. When comparing 44's to 45's or 451's to 458's the minute difference in diameter does have an obvious effect on terminal performance. It is not a huge difference but over many animals it is an obvious one. My wife shot a 900 pound bison with a 45 Colt using 300gr hardcast bullets at 1730 fps. She shot it in the shoulder at 50 yds on the first shot. It showed no reaction and slowly walked away. She waited a few second and then realized she needed to hit it again. She fired 3 more shots rapidly, hitting it in the ribs while it was quartering away. It continued on it's way for about 100 yards where it stood in brush with a lowered head. Her last shot hit it in the high shoulder/spine and it dropped. Not one bullet exited that bison and several did not make it to the off-side hide. Most of the bullets that were recovered were in the 200 grain weight range (shed 1/3 of their weight or more) and badly smeared. I repeated the bison shooting several months later with the same rifle but using Swift A-Frame 300 gr bullets. I shot two shots behind the shoulder rapidly. The bison began running away and I fired one more into the ribs on a quartering away shot. The bull stopped and paused for about 20 seconds before falling over. None of those bullets went through either. They weighted 284, 281 and 277 respectively and they penetrated as much or more than the cast bullets did. The expansion was great and the internal damage to the animal was markedly more from the A Frames than from the cast. The bison is the largest weight animals I have used a 45 Colt on, yet they are less mass than camel. The A-Frame is considered a premium bullet and the cast slugs are often chosen for bison hunting due to the historic connection of lead bullets and the bison era. In my observations, neither was any better than a premium 308 bullet from a 308 Win under the same conditions. One gets the job done primarily by weight and diameter (45 Colt) while the other gets the job done by velocity, S.D. and expansion. The results would be very similar even though they were accomplished in different ways.

[olyinaz]

The results have been very good, but the track record is not as good as a 45-70 or other 45 caliber with similar bullet weight and velocity. When comparing 44's to 45's or 451's to 458's the minute difference in diameter does have an obvious effect on terminal performance. It is not a huge difference but over many animals it is an obvious one.

I dunno guys, it sure sounds like the .45 Colt falls into the "will work" vs. "works really well" category but certainly y'all are more experienced than I.

Cheers,
Oly

[Hobie]

A .45 Colt can be loaded to .45-90 BP performance levels. That was pretty darn good once upon a time. I do think that placement is likely their problem though.

[Nath]

Hmmmm, don't get me wrong but whats wrong with follow up shots?

N.

[Griff]

Joe,

I for one thank you for your posts and wealth of "in-field" experience and observations. Sure wish I had more... but, reading about the experience of others can help one avoid the pitfalls of assuming!

[2571]

Why do y'all hunt camels? Do you eat them? Are they being culled as pests?

Does anybody hunt kangaroos with a bow? I know they can be very destructive of crops.

Respectfully submitted -- I'm not being a smart alec, I'm just igorant of your ways.

[CowboyTutt]

Joe, thanks for posting that. I'm with Olyinaz it sounds like the 45 Colt works but may not be the most humane. I'm thinking my 358 Winchester BLR with a 225-250 grain pill or 454 Puma with a 300 grain Hornady XTP mag would be a better choice.

-Tutt

[JB]

A .45 Colt can be loaded to .45-90 BP performance levels. That was pretty darn good once upon a time. I do think that placement is likely their problem though.

I agree it's shot placement or a poor choice in bullet. I love the 308 loaded with a ballistic tip for whitetails, but it would be a poor choice on larger game. Personally I'd rather have the right 308 load than any 45 Colt load for large game.

[dbateman]

Why do y'all hunt camels? Do you eat them? Are they being culled as pests?

Does anybody hunt kangaroos with a bow? I know they can be very destructive of crops.

Respectfully submitted -- I'm not being a smart alec, I'm just igorant of your ways.

camels are a pest , how ever there is a export market for live export .... selling them back to the Arab's they like our camel's ??

I don't no anyone who hunt Kangaroo's with a bow we just shoot them there a pest to
.Dave

[olyinaz]

Believe it or not there used to be a North American Camel. Lots of their bones in the La Brea tar pits. I wouldn't have hunted them with a .45 Colt either.

Oly

[Old Savage]

Let me join in the thanks to Joe here and after my recent experience with shooting a wounded adrenalized deer at close range with a 45-70 with TSX 300 gr bullets at 1750 fps through the chest and the ribs twice and have him still on two feet flailing about I don't think much can be counted on for immediate action. KirkD told me he had almost the same experience with a whitetail and twelve gauge slugs. So big slow bullets may be very effective and then again maybe not at times if you want immediate results. And in my recent experience a third shot that the hit the leg joint/went low through the chest/took off the top of the heart quickly ended the event. All food for thought and again Joe has see this sort of thing enough to have some valid opinions which are much appreciated.

[rogn]

Gotta add my $0.02, its not at all uncommon for animals with no functioning organs in their chest cavities to run 100yds or more. Whitetails are notorious for this. Id have to assume that camels may respond like whitetails in this manner. If the nervous system is not affected then the response may be delayed. Big and slow or fast and furious may not be instantaneous. "Bullets can be like medicine, sometimes it takes a while to work"

[2571]

I defended a cop who had to kill a guy in gunfight. Cop shot badman in the heart & guy ran block & half before falling over dead. Apparently applies to humans, too. Fortuantley, cop not hurt & wond lawsuit.

[Old Savage]

Congrats on the cop defense. What did he shoot him with. I saw a guy who tried to take an officer's gun and the cop managed to shoot the guy in the leg in the struggle for the gun. Handcuffed to the the bumper and flopping around he still seemed dangerous. I wonder what he was high on.

On the heart shot - if the right side of the heart is all that is hit which pumps blood to the lungs it could take a while to take affect but if the aorta or the left top of the heart is hit it will be quick, maybe almost instantaneous.

[gundownunder]

Thanks fellas, looks like follow up shots would be common with the 45 colt too.

To answer some of the questions that have been asked:

camels are a very destructive pest that destroy fences which then allows stock to get through into paddocks that can be tens of thousands of acres in size and may not have any water, which in summer with temperatures above 110 F for days on end is a fatal combination. They also destroy drinking troughs and foul up water holes. Not to mention that they taste delicious.

No you cannot hunt kangaroos with a bow, it would be illegal all over Australia. There are a set of federal standards in place for culling roos which states all roos must be killed with a head shot from a rifle with a minimum calibre of .223 and hollow point bullets with a muzzle energy of 1000 FP or more. Roos are not hunted for sport, they are shot at night from a 4wd with high power rifles and spotlights.

[txpete]

I think it boils down to use enough gun.I am a 308 fan and own a few 308s.IMHO good for pigs,deer ect but when it comes to hunting larger critters I would go with a 358 win,350 rem mag 45/70 or my all time fav the 375 ouch & ouch.I do believe in a humane kill and shooting any large animal until it looks like swiss cheese is just so wrong.

[J Miller]

Pete,

I agree with you on that. Have you read Sixguns and Hell I was there by Elmer Keith?
I'm not sure which book they were in, perhaps both, but he tells several hunting stories where the hunters literally shot the animals till they dropped. It amazed me that they had such a caviler attitude about making a good one shot kill. Even Keith himself describe shooting animals in ways I would not.
Perhaps it was the time and place, and you just had to be there.

I do know that this emphasis on one shot (where possible) kills is fairly new in the history of hunting. When I was in my teens and twenties there just wasn't the concern about "humane" killing as there is now.

Joe

[txpete]

Pete,

I agree with you on that. Have you read Sixguns and Hell I was there by Elmer Keith?
I'm not sure which book they were in, perhaps both, but he tells several hunting stories where the hunters literally shot the animals till they dropped. It amazed me that they had such a caviler attitude about making a good one shot kill. Even Keith himself describe shooting animals in ways I would not.
Perhaps it was the time and place, and you just had to be there.

I do know that this emphasis on one shot (where possible) kills is fairly new in the history of hunting. When I was in my teens and twenties there just wasn't the concern about "humane" killing as there is now.

Joe

well we are very close to the same age.my dad taught me to hunt before I was in my teens (8).my father was a hunter and one of the best shots I have ever seen(WWII vet).he was the one that stressed making a clean shot with the right rifle so the animal wouldn't suffer.both my uncles hunted northern quebec for bear,moose and shot deer for camp meat and they also taught me alot.
so the point being a humane kill isn't new it is just how and who taught you to hunt.BTW my uncles weatherbys are still up in canada as I couldn't bring them back into the U.S. when they passed away.
pete

[J Miller]

Pete,

I agree with you on that. Have you read Sixguns and Hell I was there by Elmer Keith?
I'm not sure which book they were in, perhaps both, but he tells several hunting stories where the hunters literally shot the animals till they dropped. It amazed me that they had such a caviler attitude about making a good one shot kill. Even Keith himself describe shooting animals in ways I would not.
Perhaps it was the time and place, and you just had to be there.

I do know that this emphasis on one shot (where possible) kills is fairly new in the history of hunting. When I was in my teens and twenties there just wasn't the concern about "humane" killing as there is now.

Joe

well we are very close to the same age.my dad taught me to hunt before I was in my teens (8).my father was a hunter and one of the best shots I have ever seen(WWII vet).he was the one that stressed making a clean shot with the right rifle so the animal wouldn't suffer.both my uncles hunted northern quebec for bear,moose and shot deer for camp meat and they also taught me alot.
so the point being a humane kill isn't new it is just how and who taught you to hunt.BTW my uncles weatherbys are still up in canada as I couldn't bring them back into the U.S. when they passed away.
pete

Problem being, nobody taught me to hunt. What little I know I've learned from reading and doing by myself. My father had a shotgun and a .22 rifle. I can remember him going duck hunting once, and taking me rabbit hunting once. That is the extent of my paternal hunting trips.

Joe