38-55 vs 375

[DLMcDorman]

I don't know if this has already been covered but: Can you load one of the new manufacture 94's in 38-55 up to the same level of the 375 win pressure wise? I guess the real question is if the beefed up receiver on a BB 94 necessary?

[Hobie]

You can load the .38-55 (in nickel steel barrels) to .30-30 pressures. Guess what? You've got nearly .375 Winchester performance.

[Griff]

I don't know if this has already been covered but: Can you load one of the new manufacture 94's in 38-55 up to the same level of the 375 win pressure wise? I guess the real question is if the beefed up receiver on a BB 94 necessary?

Yes, is the answer to both questions; don't do it. You can, but the result will probably result in failure. The action might not fail on the first round... but the folks that developed the .375 did some testing, and neither the standard framed 94 or Marlin didn't hold up to the .375's pressures. The "BB" 94's don't have that extra metal at the back of the receiver around the locking lug just for looks. The .38-55 is a fine performing cartridge that's quite versatile in its own right.

[tman]

I don't know if this has already been covered but: Can you load one of the new manufacture 94's in 38-55 up to the same level of the 375 win pressure wise? I guess the real question is if the beefed up receiver on a BB 94 necessary?

Yes, is the answer to both questions; don't do it. You can, but the result will probably result in failure. The action might not fail on the first round... but the folks that developed the .375 did some testing, and neither the standard framed 94 or Marlin didn't hold up to the .375's pressures. The "BB" 94's don't have that extra metal at the back of the receiver around the locking lug just for looks. The .38-55 is a fine performing cartridge that's quite versatile in its own right.

GRIFF, Thanks for your replies. I always thought that myself. But, i see that JES converts the standard 30-30 to .375. Wouldn't that be a heck of a liability on his part?

[RSY]

Buck Elliott has some interesting thoughts on this issue; backed up with some pretty solid experience, to boot. Regardless, I still love my BB94 chambered in ".38-55 Super".

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21907

[Sixgun]

I agree with Griff on the heavy loads, but there's no problem at all to push a 255 grain ---cast---- bullet 1800 fps with the proper powders. I use RL-7 in my antique (nickel steel) leverguns. A good idea would be to use .375 brass when loading "warm". It has a thicker web

[southfork]

With the higher pressure loads, is there reason to believe that an early non- "nickel steel" barrel will actually rupture or otherwise fail? I guess I figured that the nickel steel would make a barrel last longer in terms of the riflings, but a non-nickel barrel wasn't a real risk for failure. Please educate me someone.

I have a 94 Winchester in 38-55 and a pair of 86 Winchester levers without nickel-steel barrels, so I need to know just what their limitations are.

[wm]

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/P ... artial.pdf

Above is a place on the web where you can find one of the best articles on reloading the 38-55. Keep in mind that barrel dimensions varied a little bit over 140 years with design creep setting in as the cartridge went from manufacturer to manufacturer so you will have to do some due dilligence like slugging your barrel to determine the right bullet dimensions to use.

I like the 375 Win but frankly if I can't anchor it with a 38-55 I really should not be shooting at it.

Wm

[Mike D.]

I ogled a fine late 1894 .38-55 carbine with NS barrel at the Reno show yesterday. The gun has beautiful walnut and a MINT bore, but it's tagged at $2100. I'll call the seller on Monday to see it it sold, which I doubt, and see what kind of a deal can be had. IMO, the original price is a bit high.

[Hobie]

With the higher pressure loads, is there reason to believe that an early non- "nickel steel" barrel will actually rupture or otherwise fail? I guess I figured that the nickel steel would make a barrel last longer in terms of the riflings, but a non-nickel barrel wasn't a real risk for failure. Please educate me someone.

I have a 94 Winchester in 38-55 and a pair of 86 Winchester levers without nickel-steel barrels, so I need to know just what their limitations are.

Winchester went to nickel steel for smokeless powders for a reason. Restrict your loads in non-nickel steel barrels to BP pressures.

HOWEVER, if you do have a nickel steel barrel, or a smokeless Marlin barrel, then you can load to .30-30 pressures. Using RL-7 under a 255 gr. bullet (jacketed or cast) one might achieve 1800-2000 fps depending on the bore diameter. That seems to be the biggest determinant factor. 1900-2000 fps is what the shorter .375 Win got for the heavy bullet. You don't have to load to .375 Win pressures to attain this performance and if you don't quite reach the velocity it doesn't matter much.

[Griff]

With the higher pressure loads, is there reason to believe that an early non- "nickel steel" barrel will actually rupture or otherwise fail? I guess I figured that the nickel steel would make a barrel last longer in terms of the riflings, but a non-nickel barrel wasn't a real risk for failure. Please educate me someone.
I have a 94 Winchester in 38-55 and a pair of 86 Winchester levers without nickel-steel barrels, so I need to know just what their limitations are.

1st, is that a "94" Winchester or a "1894"? If it is a "94", then I'd almost guarantee that you have a nickel steel barrel... but if it's an 1894, and it's serial number puts it as produced before about 1910, you might need to ensure it's a nickel-steel. It will either say "Nickel-Steel" or have an "NS" marking somewhere on it.

If you find that it is not a NS barrel, and for your non-NS 1886's, I'd stick to using Black Powder or powders than emulate the pressure curve of BP. There have been some tragic destruction of some 1886s w/o NS barrels that have been loaded with smokeless powders... even if one believes the reloading kept velocities to those appropriate for BP loads. As I recall, the consensus was that the pressure spike in some smokeless powders appears to overly stress the barrel over a period of time, with failure occuring with no previous indicators. It's not just a matter of peak pressure, it's the rapidity the powder reaches that peak pressure. While BP burns extremely fast, it builds pressure rather consistently, whereas some smokeless powders reach peak pressure very rapidly.

To the question of the .375 in a .38-55:
Pressure limitations for each cartridge are VERY revealing:

.38-55, maximum CUP = 30,000 (copper units of pressure)
.375 Win, maximum CUP = 50,000

The .375 Winchester in general, will use a smaller diameter bullet than the .38-55, as it's bore is .375, the .38-55 groove diameter can run from .377-.381; so, not only will shooting a .375 round from your .38-55 test the tensile strength of your chamber, bolt and locking lug, it will probably not obtain acceptable accuracy.

Now, that said, if you handload... you can choose the level of loading that will be acceptable in your rifle. I'm sure that MikeD or KirkD can provide some recommendations based on their shooting of non-NS barrelled 1886.

[Mike D.]

Very few of the pre-1920 BP(.32-40 and .38-55)caliber '94 Winchesters have NS barrels unless specially ordered. I have seen 1900-10 Winchester 1894s in those calibers that are top marked "Nickel Steel Barrel /Especially For Smokeless Powder" on the left side of the barrel just below the rear sight. Others may only be marked on the bottom of the barrel where the proof stamps are located. If you question the steel on your '94s you''ll have to remove the forend and take a look at the marks. NS barrels will be stamped either M.N.S. or I.N.S. This is the barrel from my 1918 .32-40 carbine.

[Griff]

Very few of the pre-1920 BP(.32-40 and .38-55)caliber '94 Winchesters have NS barrels unless specially ordered. I have seen 1900-10 Winchester 1894s in those calibers that are top marked "Nickel Steel Barrel /Especially For Smokeless Powder" on the left side of the barrel just below the rear sight. Others may only be marked on the bottom of the barrel where the proof stamps are located. If you question the steel on your '94s you''ll have to remove the forend and take a look at the marks. NS barrels will be stamped either M.N.S. or I.N.S. This is the barrel from my 1918 .32-40 carbine.

Thanks Mike, I couldn't remember the exact time frame for the change... all my pre-1920 1894s are .30WCFs. (5)

[Bis]

I sure wish that "WM"'s link would have worked for me, I would love to get some reload data for my 38-55. Reload manuals seem a little short when it comes to the 38-55.

[wm]

I don't know the link wouldn't work for you, you should have been able to just click on it.

Or cut and paste it into your browser.

It is a article by Ken Waters from Handlaoder magazine May/June 1976. If you go to the Wolfe publishing website, then to Handloader magazine, then to back issues, and then download the PDF preview of the May/June 1976 issue you can see it and even print off a copy.

If you still have trouble, post your email address and I can email it to you.

Wm

[Bis]

Thanks. I am babysitting the 4 year old grand daughter now but will try later if she ever settles down. I am getting to old for this

[COSteve]

I sure wish that "WM"'s link would have worked for me, I would love to get some reload data for my 38-55. Reload manuals seem a little short when it comes to the 38-55.

Give this link a look. It's Accurate Powder's Obsolete Caliber Reloading Listing for 38-55. If you're looking for other loads, here is a link to their complete Obsolete Caliber Reloading Listing. They've got a number of old calibers listed.

[Bis]

CDSteve Thanks for the info, I ran a coppy of it and thanks WM I finally got it to work using the wolf publishing link.

Do you folks have any idea what level of strength a 38-55 H&R handi rifle is. The one article list 3 load levels, "weak actions", "moderately strong actions" and "strong actions"

[Hobie]

CDSteve Thanks for the info, I ran a coppy of it and thanks WM I finally got it to work using the wolf publishing link.

Do you folks have any idea what level of strength a 38-55 H&R handi rifle is. The one article list 3 load levels, "weak actions", "moderately strong actions" and "strong actions"

Keep the locking surfaces free of lube. It is used to contain the .30-06, .243 Win etc. You do not need to load above .30-30 pressures...

[Bis]

Thanks, but the load data from reloaders mag. does not list pressures. They just divide the data into 3 different strength levels of rifles

[Hobie]

Thanks, but the load data from reloaders mag. does not list pressures. They just divide the data into 3 different strength levels of rifles

I just want to <sigh>. What do you want to do? The Handi isn't a Ruger #1 but it is at least a modern 336. You DO have to keep the locking surfaces clean of lube or they will unlock. Load it to .30-30 pressures, i.e. use the darn recommended loads of 32 gr. RL-7 (work up to it of course) and such as are shown as equivalents.

[Bis]

Thanks, I just wanted to try something with a little more thump if I am going to try hunting with it.