Which is the stronger action? 1886 or 1895?

[Gary7]

I was just watching Hickok45's latest video of his Browning 1886. He has referred to the 1886 as having the "strongest" lever action made. I'm not sure I agree with that. The rear locking lug of the 95 action offers more locking surface for the bolt than the side locking lugs of the 86. Plus, Browning had higher pressure smokeless cartridges in mind when he designed the 95. So I think the 95 is probably the strongest of the Browning designed lever actions. What say you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4seN_qFLxY

[Mich Hunter]

86

[Gary7]

86

Okay. Why?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Both were Browning designs and probably at least equally strong. The surface area is important but more important is the angle of the lock up of the breech bolt and locking bolt. The 86 is slightly canted off perpendicular with two locking bolts. Where the 95 is almost perpendicular with just one locking bolt.

[Kansas Ed]

I don't know if the peak strength has ever been compared. Obviously they were engineered with two different class cartridges in mind. Just because the '95 was chambered in 30-06 class cartridges doesn't mean that the comparison is apples to apples. In my experience, the pressures generated on a big bore action, vs a small bore action are very different animals in general.

When FA experimented with the 1894BB in .454 there were shocking differences in the ability of the action to absorb the pressures of the cartridge, even though the peak pressures were relatively equivalent. Pressure rise became a substantial influence...IE: the pressure of the .307/.356 was stable in the rifle, whereas the .454 (relatively the same peak pressure with a quick pressure rise) shook the rifle to a literal death.

IMO, to actually compare the actions would require something of the following experiment:

Since the .405 has roughly the same bore diameter of the .40-XX class of cartridges in the 1886, the test bed should be of a 40 caliber nature. Pressure readings in the .405, using the same base bullet weights, would need to be analyzed vs. probably the 40-82 or 40-70 due to case volume. FWIW, I suspect that either would get way past shoot-ability in terms of manageable recoil before the actions showed any sort of distress. I know from experience that my .405 and 40-82 will get really ugly from the bench before either would show any kind of pressure signs.

Even though I have both calibers....I'm not offering to fund the experiment...

But what I'm saying is that peak pressure readings are not an indication of action strength in my opinion. (I've seen an 1895 Marlin absorb one shot of 110K PSI without issue.) So it's hard to quantify the differences unless blow up tests are actually done with equivalent test parameters. And even so, since the quality and strength of the brass becomes a determining factor in failures....you still have an apples to mango's experiment...

Ed

[firefuzz]

FWIW, I suspect that either would get way past shoot-ability in terms of manageable recoil before the actions showed any sort of distress.
Ed

I find this thread very interesting and am curious as to the opinions here. However, I agree with you that I don't want to be shooting either at pressures any where near max.

Rob

[BAGTIC]

The force exerted on the lugs depends on the pressure times the area of the case head. A 4 inch hydraulic cylinder at 3,000 psi exerts more force than a 3 inch diameter cylinder at the same pressure. A .454 head diameter cartridge exerts more force than does a smaller diameter case such as a 30-30 loaded to the same pressure.

[Gary7]

The force exerted on the lugs depends on the pressure times the area of the case head. A 4 inch hydraulic cylinder at 3,000 psi exerts more force than a 3 inch diameter cylinder at the same pressure. A .454 head diameter cartridge exerts more force than does a smaller diameter case such as a 30-30 loaded to the same pressure.

May be. But a 55,000 psi 30-06 is going to put more thrust on the bolt than a 20,000 psi 45-70.

[Hobie]

The force exerted on the lugs depends on the pressure times the area of the case head. A 4 inch hydraulic cylinder at 3,000 psi exerts more force than a 3 inch diameter cylinder at the same pressure. A .454 head diameter cartridge exerts more force than does a smaller diameter case such as a 30-30 loaded to the same pressure.

May be. But a 55,000 psi 30-06 is going to put more thrust on the bolt than a 20,000 psi 45-70.

I thought that was an interesting statement.

While one can cut hairs in discussing this subject, a rough comparison shows the 20K PSI .45-70 with about 3300 PSI breech thrust while the .30-06 at 55k PSI gives about 8200 PSI breech thrust. However, load that .45-70 up to 50K PSI and you have 9060 PSI breech thrust. That's just to move the 405 gr. to 2000 fps.

[Gary7]

Aren't most factory 45-70 loads in the 25,000 psi range? SAAMI max is 28,000.

The force exerted on the lugs depends on the pressure times the area of the case head. A 4 inch hydraulic cylinder at 3,000 psi exerts more force than a 3 inch diameter cylinder at the same pressure. A .454 head diameter cartridge exerts more force than does a smaller diameter case such as a 30-30 loaded to the same pressure.

May be. But a 55,000 psi 30-06 is going to put more thrust on the bolt than a 20,000 psi 45-70.

I thought that was an interesting statement.

While one can cut hairs in discussing this subject, a rough comparison shows the 20K PSI .45-70 with about 3300 PSI breech thrust while the .30-06 at 55k PSI gives about 8200 PSI breech thrust. However, load that .45-70 up to 50K PSI and you have 9060 PSI breech thrust. That's just to move the 405 gr. to 2000 fps.

[AJMD429]

Both were Browning designs and probably at least equally strong. The surface area is important but more important is the angle of the lock up of the breech bolt and locking bolt. The 86 is slightly canted off perpendicular with two locking bolts. Where the 95 is almost perpendicular with just one locking bolt.

Dumb question - is the 'perpindicular' angle stronger? It seems like it would be, but I'm not sure I know why I think that.

If I'm right, why am I right, and if not, why not?