OT side-lever Remington 700's - what's with their triggers?

[AJMD429]

I'm not a gunmaker, nor an engineer, but having a floating 'connector' piece in between the trigger and sear, that doesn't necessarily retract when the trigger does, just seems stupid to me. No polite or other way to put it.

I realize that the guns are famously great otherwise, and millions of people have used millions of the guns without problems, but a potentially dangerous device should be made in such a manner that 'worst-case-scenarios' are anticipated and handled! Guns get dirty, get dropped, exposed to inclement weather, and people don't always clean them. Worse yet, people don't always have them pointed in a safe direction. That's just the real world manufacturers need to deal with.

Now it may be true that every instance of accidental discharge with a Remington 700 was by a drunk guy who had just worked on his trigger with a Dremel tool and an axe, and I'm not absolving anyone of reckless gun handling, but it just doesn't seem sensible to have a mechanism which becomes unstable with grit or dirt, particularly if that instability is in the direction of dropping the firing pin more easily, perhaps without warning.

This article was posted by a litigator, so of course it has to be taken with a grain of salt, and undoubtedly somewhere out there is a 'rebuttal', but it sure got my attention.

<link> Remington 700 Trigger Commentary

I've always disassembled a new gun and checked how it works before shooting it, and in particular, tried the 'pull trigger when on safe, then release safety' test to look for the kind of bad 'timing' or whatever that causes such accidental discharges. I did have one gun that did that, and it went to the gunsmith immediately!

Unfortunately, it appears that with the design of the 700's trigger, it could pass that test one minute and misfire the next.

Anyway, just curious as to what 'rebuttals' you guys are reading on this...

(p.s. - on topic - one more reason to like leverguns; their exposed-hammers can be de-cocked upon chambering, and manually re-cocked when appropriate. I guess I feel the same way about handguns, and that's why I like revolvers without 'shrouded' hammers, and 1911's and their clones...)

[rogn]

Read thru an hours worth of commentary a few days ago, and as expected some declared the 700 to be a booby trap with the pin pulled. Was gonna kill anyone who ever got near one. And a nother group whoclaimed all the detractors were clinically commitable. Others with the better balanced replies pointing out the basic need to keep the muzzle in a safe direction at all times. My take is that all firearms are intrinsically dangerous, withthe main purpose of launching a projectile that can be lethal. Also like any other manmade creation, they can malfunction from many causes, some we can control(maintnence) and others we cant(mechanical breakage or failure). On my own experiences Ihave had an uncontrolled discharge, this from a 2 OZ. trigger whose very tight tolerances resented the intrusion of some small amt of foreign material.(my fault) Other than 2 of these instances Ive never seen or heard of accidental trigger mechanism caused discharges. This spans tens of thousands rounds of my own shooting and ten times over of others shooting. There is a popular aerosol "lubricant" that is used with little regard for its long term effects on mechanical systems. This product may be involved in inappropriate performance of a 700 trigger. This takes us to the thought that any trigger can, due the presence of dirt or foreign material(WD40???){perhaps they should be sued also} be made to fail performance testing. My own observations are that any time an injury occurs from these discharges is when the muzzle is pointed without regard to others safety-PERIOD. I have the greatest sympathy for any injured or killed because of this situation, but the true causative fact remains. I have absolutely no doubts that there have been many cases where the trigger failed and the weapon fired due to some transient issue, dirt in the mechanism, finger in the wrong place, jarring, inappropriate tinkering, etc. But again this is potential reality with any manmade device. As an example, as devils advocate, Ive seen cases where following a heavy downpour, the temperature plummeted and a vehicles brakes were temprarily frozen in a nonfunctioning state. Is that the fault of the vehicle-Hardly , any harm caused by this circumstance has to fall back on the vehicle operator. A lot of folks wont like that intrpretation because they cant blame someone else for their negligence. I feel as a society that too many of us view these situations as a "litigation lottery" . WOW, sorry for the rant, but I do feel we are unable to accept responsibility for our own actions in too many day to day situations that could be solved or avoided by a tiny bit of common sense. And cynic that I am, I cant help but wonder if ther may be a shadow cast by the ilk of Soros or Bloomberg??? Again AJ I apologize for the rant. Post script; unfortunately rebutals notwithstanding this will wind up in the court system, where the only true victors will be the involved barristers. Remington will loose whether they are found not liable, we will loose due to increasd prices from all manufacturers, and society will loose because we have allowed lack of good sense to become a factor where the truly negligent can question the liability of any manufacturer.

[Tycer]

According to the guy who designed the 700, soon after the flaw was discovered early in the life of the gun, he made another trigger for it that was better, but Remington did not use it. I like my Timney even better now.

[AJMD429]

Other than 2 of these instances Ive never seen or heard of accidental trigger mechanism caused discharges.

Two is still too many, if a common-sense design problem could have been avoided... The fact that someone knowingly OR unknowingly had a muzzle unsafely pointed, does not mean that triggers shouldn't be designed so the gun doesn't discharge upon raising the bolt handle to un-chamber a round. Even a careful person picking up a gun and opening the action before further handling, would blow a hole in something; that part is inexcusable, if true. The cases where a muzzle was pointed at a person cannot be blamed on the trigger design alone, but it doesn't mean the trigger isn't a bad design; if these 'failures' had all been during target-matches, and just caused losing scores (as long as a 'minority' shooter wasn't involved - then it would be a 'civil rights' issue... ), I think we'd have more gun owners and shooters looking at that design and saying is was crappy. Because we're all 'braced' for the gold-digging, blame-pointing lawsuit-crowd to beat up Remington, I think we tend reflexively to defend them, but it still looks like a naively unsafe design if you look at it objectively

And cynic that I am, I cant help but wonder if ther may be a shadow cast by the ilk of Soros or Bloomberg???

That's a scary take on things, but I wouldn't doubt it a bit. Even if they didn't set things up, they're ready to pounce on any 'opportunity'.

...this will wind up in the court system, where the only true victors will be the involved barristers.

True. That's the way it is in medicine as well; all too often, the priority quickly shifts from finding and fixing process-problems, to 'risk management' in the sense of deflecting and focusing the blame on someone else. Typically, the real flaw gets glossed-over in such a process, as everyone stampedes towards the 'gold', either to grab some, or protect their own.

I just hope if these triggers are poorly as designed as it sounds, they get fixed. Unfortunately our legal system is SO screwed up that manufacturers DARE NOT upgrade when they find a safety problem, because to do so will be used as 'evidence' against them for any problems up to that point. It's like if you're drifting across the center line, NOT correcting your steering, because someone will use that to 'prove' you were driving recklessly.

I suppose it is impossible to keep the debate out of the "stupid shooter shouldn't fail to clean and/or shouldn't fail proper muzzle control" realm, but my main interest is the mechanical aspects of the trigger itself, and what they were trying to accomplish with it (Did they accomplish a major improvement over the 'Winchester' version? Was it really just a 'patent' trick that didn't improve anything?), and didn't it occur to them that dirt would lead to accidental discharges? Also, what dirt does to other mechanisms in comparison; it seems like you could pour mud into my 1898 Mauser and not have that problem; haven't looked at the Ruger or Savage I have to see what I think with them.

[Old Savage]

I know a fellow who had this happen to him. His dad asked him to unload the rifle after a hunt. He says that if the slack is taken up on the trigger with the safety on and you then take the safety off the rifle will fire if loaded and that is what happened. They don't know if the dad or he took the slack up but they were able to reproduce it. that was about 45 years ago. They called Remington who sent them out a new trigger assembly and paid to have a gunsmith install it. That solved the problem. In that documentary they said it affects about 1% of the guns. He had the rifle pointed in a safe direction at the time it went off.

[firefuzz]

AJMD429,

As a preface, I'm not a gunsmith, but I've had a couple of very good smith's and armorer's teach me a lot about certain guns thru the years. I thought the write up was an excellent description of how the 700 series trigger actually works and possible problems with the design. The blow-up diagram on page 3 is probably the best I've ever seen. The 700 series trigger has been around in it's basic form since the introduction of the 720 series of rifles in the late 40's. The major changes to the 700 trigger we see today were a different "housing" that is more enclosed and a one-piece sear instead of the original two-piece design. The bolt lock on the Safety lever was removed (no one I've ever talked to understood why that was ever designed that way except as a carry over from military bolt actions....I've been cutting them off for over 30 years and had safer guns for it) Remington removed this feature in '82 as stated in the write up.

What ROGN said about the over application of improper materials called lubricants is very appropriate. I was taught years ago to never use a spray lube on trigger, a Q-tip and one drop of oil lubes the whole trigger assembly, if I just had to lube them. Most 700 smith's will tell you this is applied more for corrosion protection than lubrication. The 700 series trigger is not easily user serviced being enclosed as it is. And taking one apart is NOT for the average shooter. Just re-installing one without the proper slave pins is a PITA. I've cleaned scores of 700 and 720 series trigger and the owner thought I done a "trigger job" just by taking them off the gun and properly cleaning and lubing them, never touched a screw, on guns that had so much gunk and sludge inside the trigger housing you wouldn't believe it. (BTW, the "sealant" used on the adjustment screw is now a propriatary formula, has been since the early 80's, take it off and adjust the screws, replace it with any thing else and the lab can tell) One of the reasons the U.S. Marine's specified a Mod 70 type trigger on their M40 sniper rifle is that it's easier to service, i.e. clean and inspect, in the field than a standard 700 or Remington 40x trigger.

Looking at the sear engagement on a 700 trigger thru the inspection hole most people will think it's excessive, it is for a couple of very good reasons....it allows the sears to engage in the event of gumming up of the "works" and allows for possible metal fatigue in the sears themselves. It is adjusted to allow for years of being ignored by it's user. Most gun owners don't take their guns in for routine inspection and service by a qualifed mechanic like they do their vehicles, if if works, great...if not take it to the smith and gripe about paying to have it properly cleaned and worn parts replaced. I'll never understand that.

I personally have the utmost faith in the factory 700 trigger system....after I've cleaned and inspected it to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, most 700 shooter aren't as lucky as I've been in having qualified people teach me how to do that. This whole situation just goes to show that any thing man-made, no matter how well thought out and built, can fail...and when talking about any kind of firearm possibly with diasasterous results if common sense and basic safety precautions aren't followed. No design is idiot proof...either by the installer or the user. That's the reason that at least 10% of the cost of every new gun is used to pay for liability insurance by the manufacture.

Rob

[Markbo]

Once more for the reocrd - it happened to me! Putting a friends gun away at the end of the evening. I know for a fact his trigger had never been messed with. It simply went off when I flicked the safety to "OFF" to be able to open the bolt to put it away.

Only safe gun handling kept anyone from being harmed - and luckily the propane tank the bullet went through outside the trailer did not ignite.

[Rusty]

I have always been weary of any safety ever since a guy I went to high school lost his leg below the knee due to a safety malfunction on a Winchester M12. I was happy when I read in one of Peter Hathaway Capstick's how he said he taught his clients to handle their bolt action rifles. I've done it ever since and I've taught my son to do it

I load my bolt action rifle and with the last round as I push the bolt home
I squeeze the trigger as I slowly lower the bolt handle all the way down. If you watch the rifle you will see the striker/firing pin slowly cam to the rest position. When you are ready to fire the rifle you just raise the bolt handle and lower it back down and the rifle will be cocked and ready to go. You will also not get the loud click, that some rifles make when the safety is used.

[Nath]

My 700 will do this, pull the trig with safty on and then turn safty off to drop the pin. Trigger HAS to be first pulled! There is no need to turn safty off on mine or most 700's (if any) to turn the bolt. I love my reworked trigger and have the utmost respect for good muzzle awareness of any firearm.

After using double barreled caplocks for years it ain't no big deal!

Nath.

[Mike D.]

On the hunting trip from which I just returned we had a fellow have his 700 fire when he closed the bolt. That was the first and only accidental discharge of a 700 that I have ever heard of so it's all new to me. I have been hunting with my 700 since it was new in 1964 and have not ever had the slightest problems of any kind with it. Just a few months ago I did finally install a Timney trigger and it was one of the best moves I have made in a long time. Talk about crisp. It lets go at a mere 1 1/2 lbs and I like that.

[firefuzz]

Nath,

Something is wrong with your rifle if it will drop the firing pin by pulling the trigger and then disengaging the safety. Better have it checked. Not to be argumenative, but ALL 700's prior to 1982 locked the bolt with the safety on unless modified away from the factory. That's the only way they were made.

I'm curious if you bought the gun new or used. From what you've said above, it the gun was made prior to '82 someone's been in it.

Rob

[Nath]

Thanks Rob, mine was new to me a couple of years ago. Of the three 700's I have owned two from new and after 82 never locked the bolt.

Rob I am now confused! It seems my previous reply is wrong! I have just tested my claim and nope it won't drop the pin! I am sorry if I have scared any one!

It was demonstrated to me a while ago and my gun did it but I can not remember how it was done! I mean it's not like there is that many combinations to do it any way is it?!

Since it was demonstrated on my gun I have reworked the trigger which involved six hours work and a total strip down and now it is like a glass rod snapping at 11/2lbs. Maybe that is significant!

I will speak with my friend on the subject,,,,,

Nath.

[BigSky56]

Rusty my BIL use to carry his M77 tang safety 338 like you do and found that he had indents on the primer from the firing pin touching on it he quite the practice I dont know if all bolt firing pins will do that or not but his rifle does. danny

[w30wcf]

I have a Rem 700 in 22-250 that I bought in 1968. I used the adjusting screws to set the trigger to 1# with very little overtravel. I have fired about 6,500 rounds through that gun on the range and in the field and never had an accidental discharge.

w30wcf

[crs]

Some years ago on an American Sportsmans Club lease, I hunted one day down on the Pecos river with a young man whose father insisted he use the father's M700 30-06 rather than the boys trusty lever action .30-30. Our hunt was uneventful, and as we returned to the camp area, I unloaded my M70 .308 and suggested my companion do the same. Even though his father had told him to unload upon return to camp, he did not because he was unfamiliar with the rifle; he did check to see that it was on safe.
A few minutes later at the campfire, with the safety still on, the rifle discharged while resting on his arm with the muzzle pointed down. The bullet hit squarely between my feet, spraying rock chips onto my pant legs and scaring the Be Jesus out a dozen or so hunters. No one was injured, and despite all the following excuses and discussion, I chose to hunt alone after that. I have never and will never own or use a Remington M700. That may have been one in a million, but it could have blown off a leg and I could have bled to death before reaching Del Rio, the nearest town some two hours drive away.

[Nath]

Some years ago on an American Sportsmans Club lease, I hunted one day down on the Pecos river with a young man whose father insisted he use the father's M700 30-06 rather than the boys trusty lever action .30-30. Our hunt was uneventful, and as we returned to the camp area, I unloaded my M70 .308 and suggested my companion do the same. Even though his father had told him to unload upon return to camp, he did not because he was unfamiliar with the rifle; he did check to see that it was on safe.
A few minutes later at the campfire, with the safety still on, the rifle discharged while resting on his arm with the muzzle pointed down. The bullet hit squarely between my feet, spraying rock chips onto my pant legs and scaring the Be Jesus out a dozen or so hunters. No one was injured, and despite all the following excuses and discussion, I chose to hunt alone after that. I have never and will never own or use a Remington M700. That may have been one in a million, but it could have blown off a leg and I could have bled to death before reaching Del Rio, the nearest town some two hours drive away.

Bad bad muzzle control again!

I wonder if it's crud on the hammer sear not letting it engage the trigger assembly enough????

N.

[firefuzz]

Some years ago on an American Sportsmans Club lease, I hunted one day down on the Pecos river with a young man whose father insisted he use the father's M700 30-06 rather than the boys trusty lever action .30-30. Our hunt was uneventful, and as we returned to the camp area, I unloaded my M70 .308 and suggested my companion do the same. Even though his father had told him to unload upon return to camp, he did not because he was unfamiliar with the rifle; he did check to see that it was on safe.
A few minutes later at the campfire, with the safety still on, the rifle discharged while resting on his arm with the muzzle pointed down. The bullet hit squarely between my feet, spraying rock chips onto my pant legs and scaring the Be Jesus out a dozen or so hunters. No one was injured, and despite all the following excuses and discussion, I chose to hunt alone after that. I have never and will never own or use a Remington M700. That may have been one in a million, but it could have blown off a leg and I could have bled to death before reaching Del Rio, the nearest town some two hours drive away.

Bad bad muzzle control again!

I wonder if it's crud on the hammer sear not letting it engage the trigger assembly enough????

N.

More of a problem with this. It would be easy enough for a person familiar with the "hammer down/forward" is the safe position for the lever gun he was used to to place the safety forward on a 700, which is off, by mistake.

But again I'd stress....anything man-made can and will fail, at least some of them, at some time.

Rob

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Someone may have already asked and I missed it, but did they fix this on all 1982 and later made rifles? Or does this connector issue still exist on guns assembled by Remington today?

[firefuzz]

Someone may have already asked and I missed it, but did they fix this on all 1982 and later made rifles? Or does this connector issue still exist on guns assembled by Remington today?

To the best of my knowledge, the connector is still a part of the 700 trigger assembly, I haven't seen a recently made since about 2002.

Please let me add this before anyone thinks I'm just making excuses for Remington, although I am a big fan of 700 series rifles. The first time I heard of a situation where a 700 "just went off" and caused injury to an individual was 20 plus years ago involving a 7mm Mag that blew most of it's owner's foot off. The owner swore that the rifle fired when he disengaged the safety to unload it, a prior to '82 manufactured rifle, and that the rifle had in no way been altered. It was later proved in court that the rifle's trigger HAD been altered and the owner knew that it had. The jury still gave the plaintiff over a half a million dollars for his pain and suffering (read that Remington had deep pockets and was a firearms manufacture) although it was proved the rifle had been altered from it's factory design. I don't like that.

IF there is bonified problem they should fix it without question. But think about this....no court has ever established a standard for firearms manufactures to go by on what the specifications of a "safe" trigger pull are. Nor have they established a standard for how a trigger or safety has to operate or any other specifications on parts hardness or any other issues involving triggers and safeties. (But do we really want this????) The gun makers are flying blind and getting it stuck in their keister's at every turn. The courts HAVE proved time and time again that even when they've been found not guilty in cases involving their products they should get ready to pay for operator stupidity.

Shooters, be they hunter, competitor, or just target shooters want a safe, decent trigger pull on their guns. Anything over 5 pounds of pull on a bolt gun is considered excessive by most informal shooters I know, most want them lighter than that. Target shooters want triggers much, much lighter than that. If a factory gun gets a rep for having a lousy trigger sales drop, just ask Ruger about the complaints and lost sales when they changed triggers from the wonderful Mk I model 77 to the Mk II.

If this goes the way I think it's going to get ready. You'll see rifles with 12lb triggers and safeties that take both hands to disengage (there was/is a BP rifle that came out that way several years ago, I just can't remember the make) and gunsmith's permanately marking guns they've put aftermarket parts on, along with waivers signed in blood by the owner.

A parting question(s): How many of us have either had, seen, or heard about an unintentional discharge from a lever gun from the hammer being dropped while placing it in half cock (we used to call it "safe") position or struck hard by something? Now, how many of us absolutey deplore the tang, push-button, or bolt mounted safeties that are installed on modern models of our old faithful leverguns? Hopefully you can see the cause and solution comparison I'm making.

With all due respect to all members and posters,

Rob

[thumper47]

Someone may have already asked and I missed it, but did they fix this on all 1982 and later made rifles? Or does this connector issue still exist on guns assembled by Remington today?

I had a .270 and a .30-06 in that time frame that both would repeatedly discharge when the safety was disengaged. I currently own two Rem.s that do NOT do that, but...am concerned that they may start. I hope they fix these rifles.

[AJMD429]

Someone may have already asked and I missed it, but did they fix this on all 1982 and later made rifles? Or does this connector issue still exist on guns assembled by Remington today?

I think the article I linked to said the problem was rectified after about that time.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Thanks. I thought I had read that but wanted to be sure.