86 win into a 71?

[brno602]

Here is a ? can a 86 Win be turned into a 71? Thinking a true Smokeless NK steel 86 being turned into a 71 for the .348 or .358 wildcat version of same cal.
I have both a Browning repo of the 71 in .348 and a 86 in .33 Win and really see little diff looking at them.
Has anyone done it? I now the barrels are different in the brownings as to threads but a good solid late model 86 should be up to handle the .348 if you can get someone to make you a barrel right?
Been thinking of this don't ask, I know the repos are cheaper but just shot some very heavy loads through a 45/70 86 that would make the marlin guy's blush, so it got the little wheel turning in my head as I can pick up a 45/70 86 for under $700.00.
Of course I can count on action work, open the bolt face and such and I would make it a .358 rather than a .348

[Old Savage]

I believe it has been said here that the actions aren't really the same as the angles of the bolts are different. Whether that affects your project I don't know.

[brno602]

I believe it has been said here that the actions aren't really the same as the angles of the bolts are different. Whether that affects your project I don't know.

True the angles are a bit different,to my eye and thinking the 86 would be the stronger of the two.
Not that it matters I just want a fun Mid bore to play with.
Just seeing if someone has done it.

[Leverluver]

You can get a 348 barrel (probably custom) put on an 86. I wouldn't now why you would want to but you can. As with all wide eyed day dreams of wildcats based on the 348 case, you wind up with the same problem....a complete vacuum of bullets of correct construction and dimensions to make said wildcat function. In the case of the 358, you will probably be stuck with scrounging for old flat points developed for the 356 Win. Speer or Hornady no longer make them and even if they did, they don't measure up to the performance that I would want from a custom wildcat. You could always go Hawk in 358 but they also make 348 bullets so there is no reason for a wildcat. Same goes for the 375 or 40 cal 348 wildcats. Either the bullets are not correct for tube magazines (not flat point or very blunt round nose), are not the correct dimensions (distance from tip to crimp groove), or of inferior construction (like 38-55 type bullets in a 375 wildcat) for the job at hand. I know a writer with a 40-348 and it is pretty much a safe queen due to lack of proper bullets. Think what bullet you could possibly use first and then work backwards, not the other way around.

[Malamute]

I think the idea is workable. Why do you want to make an 86 into a 71, is it just the caliber/chambering you like?

I've been thinking of doing this on a Browning 86. I want to screw a Browning 71 .348 barrel into my 86 rifle, and have a straight grip, full magazine, 22" round barrel rifle. I just don't really like the half magazine and pistol grip of the 71, but like the range of the 348. I wouldnt call my idea turning an 86 into a 71, but making an 86 in 348 cal. I much prefer the looks and handling of the 86 to the 71.

I don't think you'll have to do anything to the bolt face, they are very close in rim diamter.

[Gary7]

I believe it has been said here that the actions aren't really the same as the angles of the bolts are different. Whether that affects your project I don't know.

True the angles are a bit different,to my eye and thinking the 86 would be the stronger of the two.
Not that it matters I just want a fun Mid bore to play with.
Just seeing if someone has done it.

Why would you think the older 1886 would have a stronger action than the 71? Given that the 71 was designed around a rather stout smokeless round I would think it would have the stronger action.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Why would you think the older 1886 would have a stronger action than the 71? Given that the 71 was designed around a rather stout smokeless round I would think it would have the stronger action.

Yeah, I think comparing the strength of the two is kind of splitting hairs.

[hfcable]

have seen several converted to 348; as long as it is one of the later 86s would be fine. not much point in it to me. if you want a .348 to enjoy get the browning.....much better barrels and generally a lot more accurate than the original 348 barrels. [ at least in my experience with them ]
with modern loads a strong 45/70 seems as good or really a better choice for most uses.
but heck, this aint about practical.....iif it was i wouldnt have 45/70s, 307, 356s, 405s, 444s,etc etc

[brno602]

I believe it has been said here that the actions aren't really the same as the angles of the bolts are different. Whether that affects your project I don't know.

True the angles are a bit different,to my eye and thinking the 86 would be the stronger of the two.
Not that it matters I just want a fun Mid bore to play with.
Just seeing if someone has done it.

Why would you think the older 1886 would have a stronger action than the 71? Given that the 71 was designed around a rather stout smokeless round I would think it would have the stronger action.

Just going on feel and shooting my 86 with some rather warm .33 win loads.( I know not all guns are the same) As to why just to have something different no real reason the 86 I am looking at has no colector value as the stock is custom front sight is butchered and it has the old owners name stamped on the bottom of the lever
But I think I will go 45/90 if I buy it so as not to change the bolt face. Not looking for all out power just something different and my own but it will cost me
I like my 71 Browning but it has no history behind it just a store bought copy so maybe I will look at getting that one a new barrel say .458 Cal.

[hfcable]

i like that idea..... that is a neat round. Paco Kelly mentioned that back in 'the old days' there were even 86s modified to take and feed the 45/100....that would be really neat, esp if you wanted to feed it black powder or hodgson 777; i have one with an old heavy replacement barrel in 45/70 that i have been thinking about doing that too. course the 45/90 is a simpler smarter neater solution.......but when did that ever stop me?
good luck.

[hfcable]

you could rebarrel your browning to the 450 alaskan. we did that with one, it is an easy round to load, and awesome power.

[brno602]

Thanks for all the idea's! Depending on my funds I will try and come up with something different just my style I like that 458 Alaskan idea on my Browing plus I could always put the .348 barrel back on it and not have to buy another rifle.

[Idiot]

The answer is no. On it best day, regardless of its wildest dreams, the M86 Winchester could never become the top of the heap, pinnacle of perfection that is the M71. It isn't only the cartridge that defines the M71; it is the rifle as well.

Answer this question; can a Chevy Biscayne become a Cadillac Seville by simply adding leather seats? NO!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Thanks for all the idea's! Depending on my funds I will try and come up with something different just my style I like that 458 Alaskan idea on my Browing plus I could always put the .348 barrel back on it and not have to buy another rifle.

Or you could get a couple of takedown rings and put one on each barrel and be done with it.

[hfcable]

The answer is no. On it best day, regardless of its wildest dreams, the M86 Winchester could never become the top of the heap, pinnacle of perfection that is the M71. It isn't only the cartridge that defines the M71; it is the rifle as well.

Answer this question; can a Chevy Biscayne become a Cadillac Seville by simply adding leather seats? NO!

please, please tell me that neither of these fine rifles is a GM or Ford product..... i am crushed, depressed, etc.

in fact the 86 and 71 are just basically the same wonderful rifle, the differences are minute. other than back in its heyday the 86 could be had in many different configurations and calibers. the 71 was of course almost all 348, with a very few factory original 33 WCF and 45/70s at the very beginning.

[Malamute]

[quote=]The answer is no. On it best day, regardless of its wildest dreams, the M86 Winchester could never become the top of the heap, pinnacle of perfection that is the M71. It isn't only the cartridge that defines the M71; it is the rifle as well.

Answer this question; can a Chevy Biscayne become a Cadillac Seville by simply adding leather seats? NO![/quote]

Interesting thought.

I've always felt the 86 was a finer, more esthetically pleasing, and interesting rifle, especially some of the special order guns. Guess that's what makes the world go 'round,...

[Idiot]

I've always felt the 86 was a finer, more esthetically pleasing, and interesting rifle, especially some of the special order guns. Guess that's what makes the world go 'round,...

I would love to own a M86 chambered in 45/70 Government. I think the M71 is a pure hunting rifle, but probably went away because the cartridge did not justify so large and heavy a gun. The 45/70 Govt. on the other hand is right at home in such a rifle.

[tman]

I've always felt the 86 was a finer, more esthetically pleasing, and interesting rifle, especially some of the special order guns. Guess that's what makes the world go 'round,...

I would love to own a M86 chambered in 45/70 Government. I think the M71 is a pure hunting rifle, but probably went away because the cartridge did not justify so large and heavy a gun. The 45/70 Govt. on the other hand is right at home in such a rifle.

Don't sell the .348wcf short. It was designed by winchester to handle all big alaskan game out to 200 yards. It did it's job well, as alaskan guides still use them to back up their client's. The 71 went away cause it was too expensive to manufactor.

[hfcable]

I've always felt the 86 was a finer, more esthetically pleasing, and interesting rifle, especially some of the special order guns. Guess that's what makes the world go 'round,...

I would love to own a M86 chambered in 45/70 Government. I think the M71 is a pure hunting rifle, but probably went away because the cartridge did not justify so large and heavy a gun. The 45/70 Govt. on the other hand is right at home in such a rifle.

Don't sell the .348wcf short. It was designed by winchester to handle all big alaskan game out to 200 yards. It did it's job well, as alaskan guides still use them to back up their client's. The 71 went away cause it was too expensive to manufactor.

A few years back there was a nice article where they took a brownning 71 and rechambered to 348 Improved....that was a heckuva ballistic improvement and quite accurate as well. always wanted to try that.........along with a couple hundred other things i havent gotten around to yet.

[Gary7]

Don't sell the .348wcf short. It was designed by winchester to handle all big alaskan game out to 200 yards. It did it's job well, as alaskan guides still use them to back up their client's.

Right. Don't buy into that old line that the Model 70 was the "Rifleman's Rifle." That distinction belongs to the 71.

[coyote nose]

Actually there may be a bit more to it than just a barrel swap. The .348 was based on a necked down .50-100 or .50-110 or something like that. When Winchetser chambered their 1886 for this 50 cal round they had to do quite a few modifications. For example, the lever is different in the 50 cal 1886's than the other 1886's. I think they had to mill a relief somewhere on the lever and change an angle here and there. Also, they had to do different milling on the barrel lead in if you will, and had to extensively modify the carrier. It may actually be a completely different carrier. I became aware of this when I bought an 1886 rifle to make my dream gun with...like you I considered going the .348 Win route with it (actually bought several bags of brass!), and also considered a 50 cal. but when I saw what was involved decided I could not do it and went with a smokeless round with a "standard" 45-70 rim diameter (33 WCF) instead. I guess that bigger rim the 348/50 cals have is what caused Winchester all the modifications.

[Malamute]

I don't think it's the rim, it's more likely the wider body and longer OA cartridge making it around corners. There isnt enough difference in rims to matter much. I checked an older Super-X 348 rim, it's .604". A 50-110 round was .605". Some 45-70 rounds were .600", 1970's and 80's Remington 45-70's run .602", and a few old government rounds going .605". The wider and longer rounds are what hang up in my Browning 86 when I try to feed them. 45-90's feed fine after getting in the loading gate, tho of course they won't chamber the last bit because the chamber is .3" short.

[Mike D.]

Back when the .348 Model 71 was first introduced in 1936 many folks sent their original '86s back to Winchester to have them re-barreled to the "new" cartridge. The original 1886 Winchesters were chambered in .50 EX with no bolt face mods. Only the cartridge guides are different to accommodate the fat cartridges. My old '86s will allow the .348 to almost enter the chamber and then cleanly eject them, so I know that the conversion can be done. I also happen to have an original 1937 .348 barrel laying around that could be had if you are needing one.

[coyote nose]

Hi Mike. They had 5 other modifications for the 50 cals besides the cartridge guides that you mentioned. 1) The lever had a milled out section different from the levers for a regular 1886....the loading gate wouldnt swing in enough to allow a cartridge to load otherwise. 2) the barrel for the 50's had the very top rear of the chamber milled through in an arc almost to the threads, leaving very little rim support. 3) the magazine tubes had a milled out portion at the receiver end. 4) The receiver was milled away in an arc where this magazine tube joined it. 5) the cartridge carrier was milled to a different shape. Pirkles book details these changes. What I dont know is what if any of these mods have to be done to turn an 1886 to being able to handle a 348. I did assume, perhaps wrongly (wont be the first time ), that since the 348 was based on the 50 cal that these modifications would have to be done on an 1886 if it were converted to .348

[Malamute]

I believe much of what you described as necesary for the 50's would not be for the 348, tho I also, have been mistaken in the past. I've loaded 50-110 rounds into my Browning 86 out of curiosity, and the front end of the cartridge being fat and long is what was tight in getting it in the loading gate. The 348 round isn't fat at the front end, so shouldnt be an issue in some of the same regards. The base of the shell just ahead of the rim is all that's really 50 cal size, and the case tapers right away going forward. The 71's don't have the magazine tube milled away, or the top of the chamber as you described. I believe the carrier (lifter) was changed to simplify it from the 86's tho there may be other things they did to them. The 86's had a hook that pulled the cartridge from the magazine, the 71's did away with that.

I'd be glad to hear from someone that knows these things for sure. I'd like to know more about them. What you told us about the 50 conversion is more than I knew in that regard. I wanted to do one at one time in the past, but I'm happy with the 45-70 for my use. For less then the conversion would have cost, not to mention the dies and brass, I bought a decent 71. I like it also, but still prefer the 86.

[brno602]

I think I will go with the 45/90 as I have been thinking I know a bad thing to do! I have a 33 Win and a .348 so no real need for something based on the .348 case. I pick the rifle up next week .
Anyway I am more of a 99 guy so the Winny's sit in the safe a bit more than they should

[Mike D.]

The change to .45-90 is a simple procedure. You need a reamer and some slight relief of the receiver forward of the loading gate to facilitate loading the longer cartridges. My Browning carbine loads as slick as my original '86s.