Wow...Teddy's "Big Medicine" wasn't the 1895.

[Gary7]

I was grocery shopping today and I spotted this magazine on the book and mag aisle. I saw the mention of TR's "Big Medicine" on the cover and grabbed it, expecting to read an article on the 1895 when I got home. Imagine my surprise to find the article is all about the new 1885 chambered in 405 WCF. The author continually refers to this gun as TR's "Big Medicine."

[Kansas Ed]

Not surprising...those mags cater to the uninformed and armchair shooter. I haven't bought one in probably 20 years.

Ed

[GregT]

Teddy's "Big Medicine" rifle was indeed the Winchester Model 1895 chambered in .405 Winchester. He also used a 1903 Springfield sporter in caliber .30-06 as his "light" rifle in Africa, along with the Model 1895. During his ranch days in the Dakotas, he used a Model 1876 Winchester Sporting rifle, in caliber .45/75 if my memory proves correct. Many photos exist of this rifle. All of Roosevelt's rifles are documented in the various books he authored. I have never heard of him using a Winchester Model 1885 single shot. Does not pay to try to correct the magazine writer's error, you will never see that in print! Roosevelt was quite a gun fancier! Had he been armed on the day he was shot in Milwaukee while giving a speech, he may well have returned fire!!
GregT

[Don McDowell]

TR liked big bores.
In the museum at the Teddy Roosevelt NP they have a pair of 76's in 50-95 one was his the other he gave to his ranch forman.
There's also a really neat switch barreled Fruend conversion 1877 sharps with 45-2 7/8 and 30 -40 krag barrels.
But his "big medicine" gun was one of his 95's in 405.

[airedaleman]

TR's exact statement was in an article he wrote for Scribner's Magazine: "The Winchester .405 is, at least for me personally, the medicine gun for lions."

From an article in the January 2002 American Rifleman.

[Gary7]

TR's exact statement was in an article he wrote for Scribner's Magazine: "The Winchester .405 is, at least for me personally, the medicine gun for lions."

And the "gun" he was talking about was the 1895.

[Rusty]

According to the book Theodore Rex Roosevelt WAS know to carry a revolver at times, much to the displeasure of the Secret Service.

[GregT]

Reagan carried also...when he could get away with it. For awhile after Reagan died, I communicated with his chief of security, John Barletta. A hell of a decent man, he worked with Reagan on his ranch after Reagan retired and helped ease him into the damnation of alzheimers. Anyway, John told me of an incident on board Air Force One. It was a cold day and Reagan had on an old fashioned top coat. As he and others settled down for the plane ride and removed their coats, Reagan swung his off and out of one of the front coat pockets fell a snub nosed revolver and skidded across the floor. John said they all looked at the revolver laying there and then gazed a Reagan who said nothing but looked like the kid caught in the cookie jar. John said he picked upt the revolver and put it in his pocket saying nothing. Reagan did not comment. John gave it back to him later and asked him to put it away. Reagan also at one point took a revolver and opened up at some geese swimming on a little pond in front of the ranch house. This of course activated the Secret Service and panic insued. When they found the source of the shots, they again took the handgun away from Reagan, unloaded it, and gave it to Nancy for safe keeping. Reagan was a cowboy at heart, long after his movies were all done.
GregT

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Well I sure would carry. I would have my "Security" drive me down to whatever office I had to do the paperwork and make them do the paper work. Then with all the camaras rolling announce that every America shall not be infringed in thier Right to protect thier person, family or property.

[piller]

FDR's wife was known for carrying and for going to shooting ranges. While shooting, she was often seen out shooting the Secret Service agents. I would support a President who would carry and know how and when to use his or her carry gun.

[GregT]

I can't resist! One more thing. Watch some of the WWII documentaries that more or less feature Winston Churchill. He had one bodyguard (!), a little wimpy-looking skinny geek who generally wore a derby-type hat and preceeded Churchill by a few steps as they walked. He was armed...and knew how to shoot! Keep your eye on Churchill's right front topcoat pocket. You may be lucky enough to note that it seems to be hanging a bit lower than the pocket on the other side and seems to be trying to "catch-up" with Churchill as he walks. The reason it sags and lags behind as he walks is that it contains an un-holstered, fully-loaded 1911 semi-auto! This pistol was also his night stand pistol and generally went everywhere he did. In his early WWI days, Churchill as a war correspondent shot his way out of some sort of predicament while on horseback using a Model 96 Mauser pistol !
And another... George Patton was a newly graduated Lieutenant, assigned to participate in our Army's invasion of Mexico chasing bandits in 1916. He was investigating a ranch house with a small detail of men. Patton entered the ranch house just as a well known bandit leader was escaping across the front on horseback. The guy took a shot at Patton and missed. Patton returned fire with the nickle-plated single action army Colt he is often seen with, and hit and killed the guy. If a perosn does enough reading about some of our early leaders, you may well run into more of these instances.
GregT

[Yodar]

I thought TR's "big medicine" was a double rifle. I once saw a documentary about one of his descendants using same on an African hunt. Can anyone verify?

[Bruce Scott]

Watch some of the WWII documentaries that more or less feature Winston Churchill. He had one bodyguard (!), a little wimpy-looking skinny geek... GregT

That would be Walter H. Thompson, Churchill's body guard for 18 years. I don't think he quite matches the above description -

[Gary7]

I thought TR's "big medicine" was a double rifle. I once saw a documentary about one of his descendants using same on an African hunt. Can anyone verify?

TR probably had a variety of hunting rifles. Being an avid big game hunter, I'd like to think he had at least one Farquharson, but who knows. But his "Big Medicine" rifles were Winchester 1895s in 405.

[Pathfinder09]

There is only ONE "BIG MEDICINE"!

[Chuck 100 yd]

If Walter H. Thompson was that little guy, I`d hate to run into his little brother!!

[Rusty]

Yodar, I was thinking the exact same thing myself. I too saw a short Movie with IIRC Teddy's Grandson and great grandson, or it might have been the great grandson and the great, great grandson, can't remember which. I know it was a father and son in the direct lineage. They went to Africa on a cape buffalo hunt and took Teddy's double rifle.

[GregT]

Hey Bruce! I still say he was a little geeky looking! And I had the hat right on the money. Notice the "bit of sag" in Winston's right coat pocket! Good photo!
GregT

[Dave James]

TR loved the 95 and used it but his big gun , maybe not the one used for the famous phrase was a H&H double in a 450 caliber, that was built and given to him before he went on his gathering safari for the Smithsonian, it is now in the NRA collection as I remeber

[Griff]

While I believe that TR's comment about "Big Medicine" was directed at his Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester, it sure doesn't preclude some literary license in using the phrase in conjunction with another rifle in the same caliber.

It could have been directed at the caliber rather than the gun.

What is "is", as asked by another famous President! Mountains outta molehills.

[Gary7]

While I believe that TR's comment about "Big Medicine" was directed at his Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester, it sure doesn't preclude some literary license in using the phrase in conjunction with another rifle in the same caliber.

There is a BIG difference between literary license and writing flat out inaccurate information. Anyone not familiar with TR and the 1895 would come away from this article thinking TR's 405 was an 1885 single shot, which it certainly wan not. If you read the article it's clear the author did not know his subject and failed to do adequate research.

[KCSO]

Uh Teddy started with a 1876 then a 1886 in 45-90 and then a 405 Model 1895. In his various writings he refers to both the 1876 and the 1895 as big medecine. In Ranch Life he gives his loading data for his 45-90, if I remember right a 300 grain bullet and Lightning powder. I also have a Harper's magazine from 1892 in which he extols the M1886 rifle. If I remember right in one book he said something like, I don't shoot real well but I shoot often. I think the basis for the article's use of the phrase may go back to an article Waters did on the 405 where he refered to the CARTRIDGE as TR's big medicine.

I'm still stuck in the 1880's as i shoot the 1886, I tried a M1895 once and really wasn't impressed I could see no advantage to it over the 86.

[Griff]

While I believe that TR's comment about "Big Medicine" was directed at his Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester, it sure doesn't preclude some literary license in using the phrase in conjunction with another rifle in the same caliber.

There is a BIG difference between literary license and writing flat out inaccurate information. Anyone not familiar with TR and the 1895 would come away from this article thinking TR's 405 was an 1885 single shot, which it certainly wa{s} not. If you read the article it's clear the author did not know his subject and failed to do adequate research.

I believe that we'll have to agree to disagree. At least until I find and can read the article. Until, my mind remains open.

The actual comment as I understood it was:

In perhaps the best presidential endorsement of any product ever, Roosevelt wrote in Scribners Magazine "The Winchester .405 is, at least for me personally the medicine gun for lions!' He created a sensation for the gun that lasts, to this day. The .405 was discontinued in 1932. However rifles chambered in "Teddy's" caliber continue to bring a high premium over examples that are chambered in a round still readily available. In 2000, Winchester announced the re-introduction of the Browning 1895 in .405 caliber, demonstrating that the spirit of "Big Medicine" is still alive and well.

So, in rereading the above, it leads me to wonder if there is more than one version of the source of the term "Big Medicine".

Tho' I am looking for the magazine so I can read the article. (I happen to like the rag, and they often have some good stuff in there). Maybe I'll change my mind after reading it... but for now...

[RDB]

There is a BIG difference between literary license and writing flat out inaccurate information. Anyone not familiar with TR and the 1895 would come away from this article thinking TR's 405 was an 1885 single shot, which it certainly was not. If you read the article it's clear the author did not know his subject and failed to do adequate research.

agreed 100%

[Gary7]

Video of the curator of the NRA museum on the 1895 and TR.

[MrMurphy]

Greg, Winston Churchill was an army officer, and since he was not involved in the campaign at the time worked as a newspaper journalist during the Boer War (1902ish timeframe) where various adventures ensued including being captured and escaping.

In 1899 I believe it was, the battle of Omdurman, the last mass cavalry charge by British troops, Churchill was participating (as an officer). He had been wounded somehow (don't remember) or somehow disabled his right (sword) arm, so during the charge he used an 1896 Mauser Broomhandle (pre-war, popular with officers everywhere) and according to his "score" got six guys with 10 shots, not bad from horseback at close range....with his weak hand i believe!

Churchill was the First Sea Lord if i remember right during most of WW1 (Chief of Naval Operations) but after the screwup at Gallipolli he returned to the ranks as a battalion commander (colonel) for a time on the western front. Oddly enough at one point, Hitler's batalion (then a private or corporal) faced his battalion across the battlefield.


Most of those guys who grew up during the Victorian age were not afraid to get into a fight and take care of themselves. Teddy was not fond of the USSS, since in his opinion he could handle himself fine.

Teddy actually wanted to take a battalion to the front in WW1, President Wilson wouldn't let him (due to bad press if he didn't make it).

One of my favorite lines about him was a newspaper article describing his death (he died in his sleep). Something along the lines of "Death had to claim him while he slept. If he was awake, there would have been a fight."

Proof some of it's genetic, his son Quentin died as a pilot in WW1, shot down in action, Teddy Jr. won the Medal of Honor as the only general to go ashore (strong objections otherwise) in the first couple of waves, armed with nothing but a cane, a .45 and a full magazine and a pocketknife and assorted small change.

He pretty much is the reason the situation un-screwed-itself -up as fast as it did, thus the MOH. I've seen Teddy Jr's and Quentin's graves at Normandy. They're buried next to a sergeant and a private. I don't think they'd mind.

[Streetstar]

While I believe that TR's comment about "Big Medicine" was directed at his Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester, it sure doesn't preclude some literary license in using the phrase in conjunction with another rifle in the same caliber.

It could have been directed at the caliber rather than the gun.

What is "is", as asked by another famous President! Mountains outta molehills.

That was my interpretation too, after reading the article, that he was actually referring to the cartridge, but the title and cover was a bit misleading--- i was expecting to see a test on the 1895, but i think they tested one an issue or two ago in 30-06

[GregT]

I've got a Model 95 from the batch that was made in Japan for Browning in the mid-80's, in caliber .30-40 Krag. I used it for deer hunting one time and the only thing I will say about using it is that it is a "b" to load and unload in the dark!! It's accurate and has good "hammering power", is very smooth to operate as long as you don't "short-stroke" it. But loading and unloading....that's another totally seperate proposition!
GregT

[RDB]

If you actually read Roosevelt or even about Roosevelt the discription of the "big medicine" was given directly to the 405 and the fire powder a 1895 brings to the hunt. Anything less is just rewriting history by the ill informed. No one including Roosevelt takes on a lion with a single shot. Simply an incorrect implication in the newest gun rag. The author should have known better

"Introduced in 1904, the .405 Win. cartridge was the most powerful round ever developed for a Winchester lever-action rifle. Roosevelt had to have not one, not two, but three 1895s in .405, and it proved very effective on almost every sort of game in Africa. The big 300 gr. bullet was a hard hitter with an initial muzzle velocity of more than 2230 fps.

In perhaps the best presidential endorsement of any product ever, Roosevelt wrote in Scribners Magazine "The Winchester .405 is, at least for me personally the medicine gun for lions!' He created a sensation for the gun that lasts, to this day. The .405 was discontinued in 1932. "

[Gary7]

While I believe that TR's comment about "Big Medicine" was directed at his Winchester 1895 in .405 Winchester, it sure doesn't preclude some literary license in using the phrase in conjunction with another rifle in the same caliber.

It could have been directed at the caliber rather than the gun.

What is "is", as asked by another famous President! Mountains outta molehills.

That was my interpretation too, after reading the article, that he was actually referring to the cartridge, but the title and cover was a bit misleading--- i was expecting to see a test on the 1895, but i think they tested one an issue or two ago in 30-06

That wasn't my interpretation. Here are the first three sentences of the article:

"Teddy Roosevelt called it his 'Big Medicine.' Others ... [big ink splotch here is obliterating a couple words] ... slinger.' By whatever name it was called, the Winchester Model 1885 was one of the most successful, accurate and [same ink splotch] single shot rifles ever manufactured."

From the very first words this article says that TR called the 1885 his "Big Medicine" and at no point in the article does it correct this mistake. TR never called the 1885 "Big Medicine." It was the 1895 in 405.

[Griff]

Gary,

Still haven't seen it, but do not doubt the accuracy of your quote. Major faux-paus. Hard to mis-interprete that. Worthy of a letter to the editor; have to question why he would let that slide?

[Lawyer Daggit]

Yes, I saw that documentary on Churchill as well. He used to find being in a firefight to be the ultimate excitement apparently.. There was an incident when the IRA took a crack at him and his security detail tried pushing him down in a car- he did not like it.

Unfortunately, they don't make to many leaders like Roosevelt, Churchill and Reagan anymore and personally I feel comfortable mentioning Ronald in the aforementioned company- I think the man was truly a gutsy individual, not merely an actor.

[MrMurphy]

He never did anything particularly wild, but he knew when to stand up and be confident and when to be a politician. Reagan was a good politician, but as an "all around" man, Churchill and Roosevelt and others were more experienced.