.30-30 RCBS Cowboy Dies in Dillon 550B Press.
I have a new set of Cowboy dies that I began to use today. Set the sizer die, ran the case up, and YIKES! neck came out at 0.319 (outside). The specs in manual Speer 13 show the neck to be 0.3301. That is quite a sqeeze!
I set the seating die just to see what a finished cartridge would look like, very odd shape. With a Laser Cast .310 in it, the neck is out to 0.330. But behind the base of the bullet, is that cinched in waist look at 0.319.
No worries about the slug sitting back in the case!
Called RCBS to check it. They said it is within specs. That I should use a regular die set instead of the cowboy on the Dillon press.
I'm wondering if I can just use the mouth expander die after dumping in the powder. Then I would seat and crimp in station #4. Doing so would leave no station for a LFCD, but that is no concern right now.
Is it safe to use the expander die in station #3 after dropping powder into the case in station #2?
Are these tight-waisted cartridges safe to shoot?
Reloading: Mouth expansion after powder drop: Dillon Press?
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
-
J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
I've never loaded rifle cartridges on a Dillon, but if I were to do so I'd do all the sizing, full length and expanding before the powder drop step. I would not try to expand a case already charged with powder.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but RCBS rifle sizing dies have the expander built in. By the time you've done the full length size step it should already be expanded. Even the cowboy dies I've seen are built this way. Is the expander in yours?
Joe
Now correct me if I'm wrong but RCBS rifle sizing dies have the expander built in. By the time you've done the full length size step it should already be expanded. Even the cowboy dies I've seen are built this way. Is the expander in yours?
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts 
.***
.***I dont have 30/30 CB dies Joe but the ones I do have have a seperate expander thats made for cast bullets. I'd imagine the bottleneck dies would have a decapper expander & one that bells the mouth for cast.
LeverBar,
I'm a little confused. Are you seating a bullet BEFORE expanding the case mouth? If not I'm surprised. I was of the mind I needed a Lyman "M" expander for things I wanted to load cast in until I discovered RCBS CB dies.
LeverBar,
I'm a little confused. Are you seating a bullet BEFORE expanding the case mouth? If not I'm surprised. I was of the mind I needed a Lyman "M" expander for things I wanted to load cast in until I discovered RCBS CB dies.
Normally, I size, expand the mouth, powder, seat, crimp, shoot. Some cartridges seat and crimp at the same time. My routine on a single stage press.
Recently I purchased a Dillon 550B. I'm in a steep learning curve. Yesterday, I loaded .32 Win Special cartridges. There was no way with the Dillon equipment to use a mouth expander. On the pistol cartridges I've loaded, the Dillon powder funnel tapers the mouth, but not on the rifles--.32-40, .30-30, and .32 Special. (Haven't looked at the .270 and .308 yet.)
My .32 Special set is a two-die set where the sizer die takes care of the neck and mouth too. So it worked alright. I was loading jacketed bullets, and am wondering how it will do seating the wider lead slugs.
But for this .30-30, I have the three-die cowboy set. I like the second die expanding the mouth a bit, even for loading jacketed slugs. But with the Dillon press, the second step in the process has to be powder. --No mouth/neck work allowed.
The lead bullets I'm using are the ones I mistakenly purchased that have the gas-check base without gas-checks. Someday I will research and purchase gas-checking equipment, but not this week/month. So I'm sitting atop 1000 bullets that I really don't want to spend money on shipping them back to Laser Cast.
I called L-C and was told (as some of you members informed me) that these bullets would shoot fine out of my rifle if I kept velocity below 1600 or so.
Because the base is odd, I didn't need to open the mouth for the case to accept the bullet. It slipped right in--slick.
I wasn't comfortable with the unusual skinny-waisted cartridges coming out of this die set--not using the neck expander--so I did try expanding the neck after the powder was in the case--station #3. Since the expander plug didn't go much, if any, below the neck/shoulder union, I figured I wouldn't be crushing/disturbing the powder.
The loaded neck is 0.330. The "waist" junction is 0.327-9. (Not the 0.319 I mentioned in the first post above.)
I seated and crimped in station #4.
These seem to be good loads: 20.3gr H4895 Laser-Cast 170gr RNFP .310.
I shot them into a block of wood in the garage--(Too many close neighbors to shoot outside: RATS! I need to move.) At the long range of going on 12 feet, they work great. I hope to shoot tomorrow at least 100 yards.
I'm going to check Dillon equipment to see if they have a powder funnel I can use to work these necks properly in station #2. --Especially for the .32-40. Not too happy about investing in a press that doesn't seem to be adequate for shooting my old rifles. I'm certain I'll figure it out, and smile again...SOMEDAY!
(Yeah, like that one.)
--Nearly forgot to tell you--
The photos on Laser-Cast's site for .30 caliber bullets has an error. The 165 grain is a plain-based slug, not a gas-checked one. Those are the bullets I should have bought when I mistakenly chose the 170's with their GC base. http://www.laser-cast.com/30Cal.html
Recently I purchased a Dillon 550B. I'm in a steep learning curve. Yesterday, I loaded .32 Win Special cartridges. There was no way with the Dillon equipment to use a mouth expander. On the pistol cartridges I've loaded, the Dillon powder funnel tapers the mouth, but not on the rifles--.32-40, .30-30, and .32 Special. (Haven't looked at the .270 and .308 yet.)
My .32 Special set is a two-die set where the sizer die takes care of the neck and mouth too. So it worked alright. I was loading jacketed bullets, and am wondering how it will do seating the wider lead slugs.
But for this .30-30, I have the three-die cowboy set. I like the second die expanding the mouth a bit, even for loading jacketed slugs. But with the Dillon press, the second step in the process has to be powder. --No mouth/neck work allowed.
The lead bullets I'm using are the ones I mistakenly purchased that have the gas-check base without gas-checks. Someday I will research and purchase gas-checking equipment, but not this week/month. So I'm sitting atop 1000 bullets that I really don't want to spend money on shipping them back to Laser Cast.
I called L-C and was told (as some of you members informed me) that these bullets would shoot fine out of my rifle if I kept velocity below 1600 or so.
Because the base is odd, I didn't need to open the mouth for the case to accept the bullet. It slipped right in--slick.
I wasn't comfortable with the unusual skinny-waisted cartridges coming out of this die set--not using the neck expander--so I did try expanding the neck after the powder was in the case--station #3. Since the expander plug didn't go much, if any, below the neck/shoulder union, I figured I wouldn't be crushing/disturbing the powder.
The loaded neck is 0.330. The "waist" junction is 0.327-9. (Not the 0.319 I mentioned in the first post above.)
I seated and crimped in station #4.
These seem to be good loads: 20.3gr H4895 Laser-Cast 170gr RNFP .310.
I shot them into a block of wood in the garage--(Too many close neighbors to shoot outside: RATS! I need to move.) At the long range of going on 12 feet, they work great. I hope to shoot tomorrow at least 100 yards.
I'm going to check Dillon equipment to see if they have a powder funnel I can use to work these necks properly in station #2. --Especially for the .32-40. Not too happy about investing in a press that doesn't seem to be adequate for shooting my old rifles. I'm certain I'll figure it out, and smile again...SOMEDAY!
(Yeah, like that one.)--Nearly forgot to tell you--
The photos on Laser-Cast's site for .30 caliber bullets has an error. The 165 grain is a plain-based slug, not a gas-checked one. Those are the bullets I should have bought when I mistakenly chose the 170's with their GC base. http://www.laser-cast.com/30Cal.html
I'm not familiar with progressives but it sounds like you may have to prep some cases on a single stage in a seperate operation.
The 30/30 CB then doesn't have an expander on the decapping pin?
I shoot gas ckeck bullets unchecked all the time from my 38/55. Never pushed them over 1500 fps & they work just fine.
The 30/30 CB then doesn't have an expander on the decapping pin?
I shoot gas ckeck bullets unchecked all the time from my 38/55. Never pushed them over 1500 fps & they work just fine.
Right. No expander on the sizing/decapping die. I hadn't realized that until the RCBS person told me. That is why she suggested I should have purchased a regular set of dies instead of the cowboys.
I'm going to figure this out. I didn't spend all this money on the progressive and the accessories necessary to efficiently load cartridges in order to stop in the middle of each progression to crank a step or two on my single stager. It is going to work.
Reloading isn't magic. --As so many of these clever minds of this forum have shown through their ingenious solutions to reloading glitches.
I'm going to figure this out. I didn't spend all this money on the progressive and the accessories necessary to efficiently load cartridges in order to stop in the middle of each progression to crank a step or two on my single stager. It is going to work.
Reloading isn't magic. --As so many of these clever minds of this forum have shown through their ingenious solutions to reloading glitches.
Lever, You HAVE to have powder funnel " B " Read page 11 again under "station two and especially paragraph 4. As you will see the Dillon uses a powder funnel that " when properly adjusted " not only funnels powder , but it also will bell the mouth of the case. The adjustment that you use will determine the amount of flare that you end up w/.
This is out of RL550B
Instruction Manual
Version 7.1
I might also add for clarities sake that this means that you don't use RCBS case mouth belling system.
If you still have any issues 800 762 3845 is the fix it line but you won't need it after you reset your machine and dies by your manual
This is out of RL550B
Instruction Manual
Version 7.1
I might also add for clarities sake that this means that you don't use RCBS case mouth belling system.
If you still have any issues 800 762 3845 is the fix it line but you won't need it after you reset your machine and dies by your manual
GD,
The powder funnel "B" that I have is a stubby little tube compared to my other funnels. It is installed properly. There is no way this tube will open the case mouth. The funnels I've used so far for the 10mm, 9mm, .44mag, and .38-40 have a funnel-shaped point that enters the mouth of the case and expands the mouth. This "B" has no such protrusion. The powder drops through without any effect on the mouth of the case.
I'm going to call Dillon today. Something is not right, or I am in the dark about it.
The powder funnel "B" that I have is a stubby little tube compared to my other funnels. It is installed properly. There is no way this tube will open the case mouth. The funnels I've used so far for the 10mm, 9mm, .44mag, and .38-40 have a funnel-shaped point that enters the mouth of the case and expands the mouth. This "B" has no such protrusion. The powder drops through without any effect on the mouth of the case.
I'm going to call Dillon today. Something is not right, or I am in the dark about it.
Talked with Dillon Helper. As suspected, I need to get an expander plug for my die or a new die in station #1.
He said the "B" funnel is designed for loading jackedted bullets. Had no tips beyond the expander plug for loading lead.
Good Help. Knew his machine. Answered a couple other of my questions easily/completely.
I'll see if one of my other dies has a plug that will work--maybe the .308, or the slightly larger .32-20, .32-40, .32 Special. I have regular two-die sets for these.
He said the "B" funnel is designed for loading jackedted bullets. Had no tips beyond the expander plug for loading lead.
Good Help. Knew his machine. Answered a couple other of my questions easily/completely.
I'll see if one of my other dies has a plug that will work--maybe the .308, or the slightly larger .32-20, .32-40, .32 Special. I have regular two-die sets for these.
Lever,
That is of course the same powder funnel that I have , maybe one thing that you might not be doing is lightly ream the case mouth . I use a VLD , but I also have a RCBS reamer and just don't remember which I have used on 30-30 cases . w/ the powder die adjusted corectly and cases reamed lightly I haven't shaved a bullet (cast )yet unless I didn't properly align it prior to seating (maybe 3 total because of not aligned right ). the VLD and RCBS reamers are very different in angle, but perform the same function , but the VLD has a very nice handle
hope this helps
That is of course the same powder funnel that I have , maybe one thing that you might not be doing is lightly ream the case mouth . I use a VLD , but I also have a RCBS reamer and just don't remember which I have used on 30-30 cases . w/ the powder die adjusted corectly and cases reamed lightly I haven't shaved a bullet (cast )yet unless I didn't properly align it prior to seating (maybe 3 total because of not aligned right ). the VLD and RCBS reamers are very different in angle, but perform the same function , but the VLD has a very nice handle
hope this helps
Last edited by gimdandy on Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
WHELENATOR
- Levergunner
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:08 pm
- Location: ANCHORAGE, AK
Dillon troubles
Sir, I've been loading on a RL-550B for a few years and can tell you this. you don't have any problems, it's just that a 2 die rifle set of dies just won't work right on the Dillon setup for belling case mouths. The powder drop tube on the 550 is made to fit the case mouth rather well on rifles, and has a case mouth sized cut that the case goes up against and pushes up on the powder system to get the powder to drop. Since you want to bell for your 30-30, you would have to have a powder drop tube designed just like the 45 Colt, 45 ACp, or any other pistol powder drop system for it to work right for you. Hmmm...what caliber is .308 or so and requires a case mouth belling system?? Maybe 32 H&H Mag?? Maybe the powder stem for that caliber might be set up to work for you?? Might require some creative adjusting of the powder measure, but it might work...
lever actions are the original assault rifle!
GDandy,
The problem is not the case mouth. I'm uncomfortable squeezing the neck down to .319 and then having it expand to .330 by jamming a bullet into it, leaving a cinched in area of brass just in front of the shoulder and just at the base of the bullet. I've never reloaded with a die that did this to a case. I've never seen a cartridge with this deformity.
I think I'll send the die back to RCBS and let them ream it a bit for me, or they can keep it and give me one that doesn't work the neck so much.
Whelenator,
I have a three-die set that I'm wanting to use, but know to do so means I have to expand the neck after I put the powder in. Then seat and crimp in one step on the right side of the press instead of the left. Not a good solution.
I decided to not monkey with my other dies. Bought another two-die set for the .30-30 today. If these don't work, I'm going to wonder how Dillon could make a press that would not accommodate one of the most popular calibers of all time. Doesn't make sense.
So Welenator, what do you use for a .30-30 if you say a two-die system won't work, and my three-die system is silly? Or when you said "2 die" it was a typo?
Also, the load I listed above did not shoot straight. Maybe it would have worked with a plain-based, but not with these non-checked G-Cs.
The problem is not the case mouth. I'm uncomfortable squeezing the neck down to .319 and then having it expand to .330 by jamming a bullet into it, leaving a cinched in area of brass just in front of the shoulder and just at the base of the bullet. I've never reloaded with a die that did this to a case. I've never seen a cartridge with this deformity.
I think I'll send the die back to RCBS and let them ream it a bit for me, or they can keep it and give me one that doesn't work the neck so much.
Whelenator,
I have a three-die set that I'm wanting to use, but know to do so means I have to expand the neck after I put the powder in. Then seat and crimp in one step on the right side of the press instead of the left. Not a good solution.
I decided to not monkey with my other dies. Bought another two-die set for the .30-30 today. If these don't work, I'm going to wonder how Dillon could make a press that would not accommodate one of the most popular calibers of all time. Doesn't make sense.
So Welenator, what do you use for a .30-30 if you say a two-die system won't work, and my three-die system is silly? Or when you said "2 die" it was a typo?
Also, the load I listed above did not shoot straight. Maybe it would have worked with a plain-based, but not with these non-checked G-Cs.
-
WHELENATOR
- Levergunner
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:08 pm
- Location: ANCHORAGE, AK
Dies
Leverbar, sorry for any confusion about the 2 die set. What I meant to convey was that with the Dillon press, the 2 die RIFLE set won't work too well for doing CAST bullets. That's why I sugested using a 32 H&R die expander for it. It's true, the Dillon press isn't that useful for certain calibers, but I think it was really designed more for guys that need to crank out 500 rounds of 45 ACP, then switch over for 223. For this, it is awesome, and fast. I know what ya mean about that small waist problem, it's strange. When I was loading for the 30-30, I never did try cast bullets in it. I had a TC Contender with a 14 inch bull barrel, so I was loading 125 Ballistic Tips in it and a few other bullets that I can't right now remember.LeverBar wrote:GDandy,
The problem is not the case mouth. I'm uncomfortable squeezing the neck down to .319 and then having it expand to .330 by jamming a bullet into it, leaving a cinched in area of brass just in front of the shoulder and just at the base of the bullet. I've never reloaded with a die that did this to a case. I've never seen a cartridge with this deformity.
I think I'll send the die back to RCBS and let them ream it a bit for me, or they can keep it and give me one that doesn't work the neck so much.
Whelenator,
I have a three-die set that I'm wanting to use, but know to do so means I have to expand the neck after I put the powder in. Then seat and crimp in one step on the right side of the press instead of the left. Not a good solution.
I decided to not monkey with my other dies. Bought another two-die set for the .30-30 today. If these don't work, I'm going to wonder how Dillon could make a press that would not accommodate one of the most popular calibers of all time. Doesn't make sense.
So Welenator, what do you use for a .30-30 if you say a two-die system won't work, and my three-die system is silly? Or when you said "2 die" it was a typo?
Also, the load I listed above did not shoot straight. Maybe it would have worked with a plain-based, but not with these non-checked G-Cs.
As for expanding AFTER you drop powder, I don't see what the problem with that would be. The rifle expanders don't really go that far down into the neck anyway, so unless your dropping a 100% load, I wouldn't sweat it. However, that's not the real fix and I know that's what your loking for. I would call RCBS and get them to take that die set off your hands. They stand behind their stuff real well. Good luck sir.
lever actions are the original assault rifle!
I'll take your "good luck" and send half of it back to you. Plenty for both of us.
Thank you for your comments.
I will mail that die back to them for trading. Whether it is correctly built or not, I'd rather not use it.
I'll try the 2-die set today. Step up the powder charge a bit to see if those odd bullets will straighten out their flight.
So far, the only source I can find with H4895 and cast lists a 160gr at 17.5-21.
The load right now seems weak. Quiet report and little recoil. 170gr with 15gr left powder in the barrel.
Think I might be getting into gas-checks soon for my old rifles.
Thank you for your comments.
I will mail that die back to them for trading. Whether it is correctly built or not, I'd rather not use it.
I'll try the 2-die set today. Step up the powder charge a bit to see if those odd bullets will straighten out their flight.
So far, the only source I can find with H4895 and cast lists a 160gr at 17.5-21.
The load right now seems weak. Quiet report and little recoil. 170gr with 15gr left powder in the barrel.
Think I might be getting into gas-checks soon for my old rifles.
-
WHELENATOR
- Levergunner
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:08 pm
- Location: ANCHORAGE, AK
Bullets
I just looked in Loaddata, and found a couple for you...LeverBar wrote:I'll take your "good luck" and send half of it back to you. Plenty for both of us.
Thank you for your comments.
Thanks for that! I need all the luck I can get, at least the good variety.
I will mail that die back to them for trading. Whether it is correctly built or not, I'd rather not use it.
I'll try the 2-die set today. Step up the powder charge a bit to see if those odd bullets will straighten out their flight.
So far, the only source I can find with H4895 and cast lists a 160gr at 17.5-21.
The load right now seems weak. Quiet report and little recoil. 170gr with 15gr left powder in the barrel.
Think I might be getting into gas-checks soon for my old rifles.
This is from Handloader #192:
170 NEI 170.308 Hodgdon H-414 36.0 2,012
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: W-W; group at 50 yards: .75 inch; 24 BHN
170 NEI 170.308 Hodgdon H-414 36.5 2,076
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: W-W; group at 50 yards: .9 inch; 24 BHN
lever actions are the original assault rifle!
-
WHELENATOR
- Levergunner
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:08 pm
- Location: ANCHORAGE, AK
I just tossed those in there to make it look like I was being helpful. You probably know more about loading than I ever will. Do you use loaddatadotcom? it's fairly useful to me. That's where I pulled that from, and they have a LOT of 30-30 info available if you are so inclined.
lever actions are the original assault rifle!
-
runfiverun
- Levergunner 2.0
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:19 pm
the 30 cal through powder die is #c it works for 30 carbine
this will only flare the case mouth as it is like 305 outside diameter
i would get the die set with the expander and figure what size expander you want.
if you want to go the dillon route order the #c and a powder measure
adapter this will allow you to set your flair by using the lock screw on the
side.
then you can dump your powder by hand or put the adapter on and use your lee,rcbs, etc powder measure
or lock this in hole # 3
to just flare the mouth after you use the auto powder drop
with j-bullits dillon is slick you just have to get real creative in the cast dept.
or to not have to buy every part and piece they have
this will only flare the case mouth as it is like 305 outside diameter
i would get the die set with the expander and figure what size expander you want.
if you want to go the dillon route order the #c and a powder measure
adapter this will allow you to set your flair by using the lock screw on the
side.
then you can dump your powder by hand or put the adapter on and use your lee,rcbs, etc powder measure
or lock this in hole # 3
to just flare the mouth after you use the auto powder drop
with j-bullits dillon is slick you just have to get real creative in the cast dept.
or to not have to buy every part and piece they have
Yeah, it's getting a bit spendy: toolheads, powder dies, powder funnels, shell plates. The cost of the press is alright, but just to equip for the dozen or so calibers I load, I'm in over $1000. (And I have my own dies already.) Someone is making a bit too much money off reloaders!
I tried the new expander from the 2-die set. It works the case neck to 0.326. Much better than the -.-19. But I still need to bell the mouth a bit, so I was back to belling after the powder stage.
I'm going to try to stay away from taking cartridges out of this press to work them in my old RCBS. The more monkeying around I do, the more likelihood I'll make a mistake
I'm going to look at the powder funnels I have for the Dillon press. Maybe I can use one of them to solve my problem.
I tried the new expander from the 2-die set. It works the case neck to 0.326. Much better than the -.-19. But I still need to bell the mouth a bit, so I was back to belling after the powder stage.
I'm going to try to stay away from taking cartridges out of this press to work them in my old RCBS. The more monkeying around I do, the more likelihood I'll make a mistake
I'm going to look at the powder funnels I have for the Dillon press. Maybe I can use one of them to solve my problem.
I did use a secondary expander at times when loading light plinking loads on the 550B. I would seat the bullet in station four and crimp in my single stage. You are quiet correct, Dillons can get expensive. I gave up on mine and traded it away. It was just too much of a one size fits all approach to suit me. I now use my single stage, Redding Ultra, exclusively. I have entertained the T-7 but at the moment it is just a twinkle in my eye. I have been coming across some interesting levers so my funds are diverted for the moment. Regards. 1886.