OT Anyone shoot polymer coated steel case ammo?

[Larsen E. Whipsnade]

Although I've shot laquered steel case milsurp ammo in bolt guns (8mm Mauser, 7.62R Moison) and in an AK, I've been leery of using it in my more expensive semi's (AR15, M1A), as I read somewhere that the laquer can build up in the chamber & be hard to remove. However, my understanding is that the ploymer coating negates that. I've been wanting to build up my stash of 7.62 NATO. For quite a bit less than what it would cost to buy once fired military brass, primers, powder, and bullets, I could buy steel case ammo from Wolf or Tula (I found some for $.24 a round) and I wouldn't have to invest all the time in reaming primer pockets, trimming, loading, etc. I figure just the components for loading it would cost me roughly $.40-.45/round. On the other hand, after I fired it, I'd have brass I could reload again. I'm going back and forth trying to make up my mind on this. Does anyone shoot this stuff? Are there any issues with using it in an M1A? I don't want to take a chance on messing up the rifle. What's the accuracy like? I'm not looking for match grade, but I'd like to approximate NATO ball. I got burned several years ago buying 3,000 rounds of Indian army surplus ('cause it was CHEAP) and it's so bad I'm afraid to shoot it. Ammo is so out of round, and bullets are so inconsistent that it groups about 6" off the bench at 50 yds. I've found cases that are split, don't have the extractor groove turned properly, vary in length from .020 below trim-to length to .020 above max. The ogives on the bullets apparently vary too, as I tried pulling some & reloading them (thinking running the cases through the sizing die might straighten them out) and I can't keep a consistent seating depth. OAL varies all over the place. I found one bullet that had no core, just the copper jacket. So I said all that to say this - I'm not inclined to repeat that mistake and buy on price alone without some idea of what the Russian stuff is like. So, anyone have any experiences - good or bad - to share?

[Ben_Rumson]

I know the Wolf polymer coated M1 carbine ammo will leave polymer residue in the chamber to the point the bolt won't open.. only takes about 100 rounds to do it in my carbine... It isn't too hard to get the build up out... chamber brush and Butches Bore Shine... 20 -30 min scrubbing and patches... It seems the M1 carbine is the most susceptible to the problem...I've read other posts about the Wolf polymer coated rounds thru the AKs & SKS types with no troubles..and other rifles too.. Don't remember anything about the M1A... The subject comes up on various military rifle shooting forums... To finish up the case of Wolf I bought I wound up spinning the rounds in a drill motor and taking off the coating with a 3M pad.. YMMV.. google it..

[olyinaz]

From what I've read the polymer coating is better than lacquer, but still an issue. There's a Bear "Silver" product that's zinc plated steel case and I've been wondering if that wouldn't be better. In the mean time I stick to brass in everything except my Eastern Bloc rifles.

Cheers,
Oly

[SteveR]

I also shoot the polymer and lacquer coated in my Mosins and SKSs, I did want to use the .233 stuff in my Olympic Arms, but they state in their warranty that shooting anything but brass will void the warranty. I asked why and it seems there might be higher pressures because the steel case doesn't expand and hold the pressure as well as the brass. The coating was supposed to hold the case. Just a thought, not sure if this helps you make a decision.

Steve

[Hobie]

Based on the experiences others have had, I would not use it unless I had to. IME, you usually get what you pay for.

[foxtrapper]

Larson go over to the ARF15.com website. There is a huge library of info about shooting the poly steel case stuff. From what I read the steel is good to go. Just don't shoot brass once you start a session with steel until you clean the chamber.

[Larsen E. Whipsnade]

Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond. I took Ben Rumson's advice & googled it. I found a lot of discussion and opinions seemed to be split more or less evenly. BUT, I found that Springfield Armory does not endorse the use of steel case ammo in their M1A's, so that made up my mind for me. I'll buy some brass case boxer primed stuff as I can afford it for my "doomsday" stash (the difference in price between berdan & boxer does not justify having to trash the brass, IMO), and reload as I can find the time and $ for the rest.

[RSY]

Someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong...but, I thought all steel-cased ammo was intended for rifles with chromed chambers. Verdad?

[SteveR]

Someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong...but, I thought all steel-cased ammo was intended for rifles with chromed chambers. Verdad?

I'm not more knowledgeable, but the chromed chambers and barrels was to prevent rusting caused by the corrosive salts from the primers. The mind set was that in the field proper cleaning of weapons was not possible, so chroming chambers and inside of the barrel would protect them. Chroming was done on the SKSs and AKs, not on the Mosin Nagants, and they made plenty of steel cased rounds for them.

Steve

[RSY]

Someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong...but, I thought all steel-cased ammo was intended for rifles with chromed chambers. Verdad?

I'm not more knowledgeable, but the chromed chambers and barrels was to prevent rusting caused by the corrosive salts from the primers. The mind set was that in the field proper cleaning of weapons was not possible, so chroming chambers and inside of the barrel would protect them. Chroming was done on the SKSs and AKs, not on the Mosin Nagants, and they made plenty of steel cased rounds for them.

Steve

Are you sure? I didn't think steel-cased rounds came around until after World War II, so any steel 7.62x54mm would be intended for the Dragunov sniper rifle, not the Mosin-Nagant, right?

SCott

[AJMD429]

In the mean time I stick to brass in everything except my Eastern Bloc rifles.

What exactly do the 'Eastern Bloc' rifles have that makes them 'immune' to the crud on these cases? Just looser tolerances, or what? If it's just 'chrome chambers' wouldn't many of the Bushmaster firearms do just fine with it?

I'll buy some brass case boxer primed stuff as I can afford it for my "doomsday" stash (the difference in price between berdan & boxer does not justify having to trash the brass, IMO), and reload as I can find the time and $ for the rest.

I'd think that for "doomsday" you'd just stick with the 'disposable' stuff, since having the spare time to sit around and reload ammunition is not as likely during poo-hits-fan scenarios where you may have to attend more to obtaining food, water, first-aid supplies, bartering, taking turns guarding a neighborhood from looters, building temporary shelter, or whatever, depending on what the specific form of poo is. (Of course, if you're using it in a gun you'd have to clean every 100 rounds because the gun wasn't made for that type ammo, I can see how that would be a big time-consumer, too...)

[JB]

I've shot a fair amount of it in various military rifles over the years with no problems. I believe a lot of the horror stories on the net are b.s.

[O.S.O.K.]

I have a personal rule. The polymer steel cased stuff only goes into my AKM's - or the milsurp bolt guns. Everything else gets brass cased ammo.

[olyinaz]

What exactly do the 'Eastern Bloc' rifles have that makes them 'immune' to the crud on these cases? Just looser tolerances, or what? If it's just 'chrome chambers' wouldn't many of the Bushmaster firearms do just fine with it?

I'm guessing that it's a combination of the Kalashnikov and Simonov type actions and loose tolerances. Whatever it is, they just chew through the stuff and couldn't care less but I guess what I keep coming back to is that this stuff is standard issue and obviously they thought it was fine so I do as well.

Cheers,
Oly

[SteveR]

Someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong...but, I thought all steel-cased ammo was intended for rifles with chromed chambers. Verdad?

I'm not more knowledgeable, but the chromed chambers and barrels was to prevent rusting caused by the corrosive salts from the primers. The mind set was that in the field proper cleaning of weapons was not possible, so chroming chambers and inside of the barrel would protect them. Chroming was done on the SKSs and AKs, not on the Mosin Nagants, and they made plenty of steel cased rounds for them.

Steve

Are you sure? I didn't think steel-cased rounds came around until after World War II, so any steel 7.62x54mm would be intended for the Dragunov sniper rifle, not the Mosin-Nagant, right?

SCott

The copper washed steel cases came out in 1934, I think it was more due to economic reasons, brass is expensive compared to steel.
The Dragunov rifle was officially adopted for service in 1964, and had chrome lined bore and chamber, for corrosion resistance.
"The Dragunov's barrel is ended with a slotted flash suppressor. The barrel’s bore is chrome-lined[3] for increased corrosion resistance, and has 4 right-hand grooves with a 320 mm (1:12.6 in) twist rate. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle
Steve

[RSY]

I think I got sidetracked onto case material, when the real issue inquired about was the coatings. I will distill my thoughts down thus: Coated ammo should not be run extensively through semi-auto or auto weapons that do not have chrome chambers. I could be wrong, but I believe that is how it was meant to be.

[olyinaz]

I will distill my thoughts down thus: Coated ammo should not be run extensively through semi-auto or auto weapons that do not have chrome chambers. I could be wrong, but I believe that is how it was meant to be.

I don't think chrome plating really has anything to do with it. The coatings come off to some extent and that's pretty much it. Some rifles slough if off and some get sticky and need it removed more frequently. In virtually every case I've heard of what we're talking here is AKs vs. ARs (both chrome plated). In any case I don't think it does damage, it's just a pain in the rear to scrub out for those who have troubles due to it.

I would not run the stuff in rifles that are made to high specs (ARs and M1As) because those are always the folks who seem to have trouble with it.

Regards,
Oly

[SteveR]

I think I got sidetracked onto case material, when the real issue inquired about was the coatings. I will distill my thoughts down thus: Coated ammo should not be run extensively through semi-auto or auto weapons that do not have chrome chambers. I could be wrong, but I believe that is how it was meant to be.

From what I understand, although I may have it wrong, is this:

Steel cases that have the coating on them is to act as a gasket, it keeps the steel case in the chamber long enough to expand, which keeps chamber pressures in the chamber and not on the bolt.

I have an AR-15 made by Olympic Arms, they say that only brass cases should be used in their guns, steel cased ammo will void the warranty, I will defer to the manufacturer, I think they understand ballistics a whole lot better than me.

The chrome was used as a way to prevent corrosion from firing corrosive primers, which are still being manufactured by Russia for their service arms. The primer material that is corrosive is felt to be superior to non-corrosive primers.

I hope I make sense, I do ramble at times.

Steve

[SteveR]

If you shoot Mosin Nagants, you will get the "sticky bolt" caused by the coating melting off the cases as the chamber heats up.

I like to shoot the copper washed ammo or the zinc washed cases that Wolf and other put out, makes cleaning much easier.

Steve

[Ben_Rumson]

Steel cases have coatings on them for one reason, rust prevention in long term storage...Not to help seal the chamber...I suspect that lacquer and poly coating is cheaper and faster to produce than plated case ammo..
Steel can be made soft enough to properly expand in a chamber; after all, the steel is soft enough to be drawn and formed into a bottle necked case. Here's an example of soft steel most of us have heard of...Think back to the warnings to not shoot copper jacketed bullets through antique firearms because the steel barrels are so soft that the copper jackets will wear them out... Sooting on your steel cases can be from low pressure causing the case to not expand enough.
The US experimented in WWII with steel case ammo... I had a bunch of US made once fired 45 ACP zinc plated steel cases given to me.. For fun I reloaded a couple of boxes of them four or five times...I don’t remember any sooting on them...None cracked at the case mouth, but the plating did disappear where the taper crimp was. It was good to know I could use them if I ever really needed to, but I didn’t want to ruin my dies so I quit doing it.

[SteveR]

but I didn’t want to ruin my dies so I quit doing it.

Why would you ruin your dies? If the steel cases are soft as to seal the chamber, then they shouldn't hurt the hard steel tooling that make up dies?

Just curious, or did I misunderstand?

Steve

[Ben_Rumson]

Steve... I suspect it's an issue of friction...as the plating wears away at the crimp line or elsewhere, galling from steel against steel contact in the die would cause damage...Also prolonged reloading steel cases would lead to work hardening of the case and probably would soon lead to the cases not expanding as they are supposed to in the chamber, or maybe cracking somewhere on the case upon firing.

[SteveR]

I understand, I bet you wouldn't get many reloads from the steel cases, but good to know that in a pinch steel boxer primed cases could be used.

I would imagine that would be one of the problems with a 5.56/.233 chamber with steel cases over a long period, it seems it would cause more wear than brass.

I will still keep using brass cases in my 5.56 and steel in the AK/SKS/Mosins.

Steve

[Mac in Mo]

I have personal experience with lacquered cases causing problems in my Mini 14. My son and nephew were burning through a bunch of ammo one day at our property. They were shooting the Mini and an SKS. After several hundred rounds, the Mini started to malfunction. The bolt would not move upon firing. After a few minutes of scratching my head, I realized that upon inserting a full magazine and chambering a round into the hot chamber(hot from the previously emptied mag) the built up lacquer in the chamber would stick to the lacquer on the fresh round. The lacquer was all over the chamber of the rifle. It took some cleaning to get that stuff out of there. The bore of the barrel was also corroded. I wasn't able to clean the rifle for a few days after getting home.
This was about ten years ago. The ammo was Wolf .223, marked as non corrosive. I gave the remaining ammo to a buddy. His AR15 was chrome lined and he felt it would not be an issue. Never heard if he had any issues.
The SKS was being fed the same brand of ammo that day and never had any issues before or after with the lacquer cases or any barrel corrosion. I too have wondered why this is. Kevin