Bullet comments about the old ##-## cartridges

[J Miller]

EDITED COMMENT. HOPEFULLY THIS VERSION WILL MEET WITH APROVAL. IF NOT THEN OH WELL. Original comment below.
I've read a bunch of posts here about how many of the rifles in the old dash number calibers are really picky about what bullet they use.
How the groove diameters vary so much it's sometimes impossible to get a large enough bullet to chamber because of chamber dimensions.

One of the things I've learned is that the ammunition the old guns used back when they were new had softer bullets than what's normally seen today. Those bullets would expand to fill the rifling and the problems we have today didn't exist. If they had existed the shooters would have rejected the guns, cartridges, and ammo and they would soon disappear from the scene. But they haven't, and when using factory ammo they shoot quite well if in good mechanical condition.

I've watched most of the posts about these picky rifles and noticed that even when the poster bought the softer bullets sold by the bullet makers they were still harder than the old factory bullets.
With the low pressures these rifles run, there is little to no expansion to the bullets, that gives lots of opportunities for problems.

Were I to own a rifle in 44-40 or 38-40 that was as picky as some here are, I'd find an original design mold and cast 'em down around 20-1 to 30-1 lead-tin, and would even go so far as to try and find a hollow base mold if there was one available.
I honestly don't think the modern multiple metal alloys are needed or desirable for these old rifles.
I'd do my best to duplicate the original bullet (size, weight, and alloy) and I'll be willing to wager that the rifles would shoot quite well.

I could be wrong, but I honestly can't remember reading about more than a couple members here trying soft cast bullets like described - except those shooting the big boomers. And those are fodder for another thread.

I think we have been lead down the wrong path about bullets. Harder is not better in most instances.

JMHO

Joe

ORIGINAL COMMENT I'VE BEEN TAKEN TO TASK ABOUT.
I've read a bunch of posts here about how many of the rifles in the old dash number calibers are really picky about what bullet they use.
How the grove diameters vary so much it's sometimes impossible to get a large enough bullet to chamber because of chamber dimensions.

One of the things I've learned is that the ammunition the old guns used back when they were new had soft hollow based bullets. Those bullets would expand to fill the rifling and the problems we have today didn't exist. If they had existed the shooters would have rejected the guns, cartridges, and ammo and they would soon disappear from the scene. But they haven't, and when using factory ammo they shoot quite well if in good mechanical condition.

I've watched most of the posts about these picky rifles and noticed that even when the poster bought the softer bullets sold by the bullet makers they were still harder than the old factory bullets.
With the low pressures these rifles run, there is little to no expansion to the bullets, that gives lots of opportunities for problems.

Were I to own a rifle in 44-40 or 38-40 that was as picky as some here are, I'd find an original design mold and cast 'em down around 20-1 to 30-1 lead-tin, and would even go so far as to try and find a hollow base mold.
I honestly don't think the modern multiple metal alloys are needed or desirable for these old rifles.
I'd do my best to duplicate the original bullet and I'll be willing to wager that the rifles would shoot quite well.

I could be wrong, but I honestly can't remember reading about more than a couple members here trying soft cast bullets like described - except those shooting the big boomers. And those are fodder for another thread.

I think we have been lead down the wrong path about bullets. Harder is not better in most instances.

JMHO

Joe

[Blackjack]

I agree, the softer lead conforms to the rifling better also sealing off the hot gases which can increase velocities and cut down on leading due to hot gases escaping around the projectile. It's a win win. The industry seems to be trying to reinvent the wheel at times. That said there are some truely awsome bullets coming out. I use cast bullets almost exclusively in my revolvers. Not only great performance but also economical. Phil

[Ben_Rumson]

Seen below are Winchester molds...molds for their calibers & one Ideal for the 45 Colt... not a hollow base in the bunch.. Molds from Lyman offered/offers a duplicate factory bullet @.427” for the 44-40 which is not hollow base... They also made one that dropped a .429” GC for the 44-40... Like someone pointed out the other day...Winchester bores/grooves run in the .429 + range... Colts in .427” range.....Casting hollow base bullets is slow going... Buying commercial soft plain based lead bullets usually cost more than the harder bevel base commercial bullets.
If you’re gonna make old guns shoot good with lead bullets.. be prepared to cast bullets.. Lucky is the man that gets one he can buy commercial cast bullets for and have good performance...I don’t know how many of the old time ammo makers actually offered hollow base bullets?.. They were soft though......I’ve seen old time military hollow base swaged lead bullets...I’ve seen modern swaged soft lead semi hollow base bullets made for old calibered rifles & pistols... CIL had some like that...Winchester manufactured 45 Colt ammo in soft lead with a semi hollow base and shot great in my New Service...Dunno if they still can be had or not...There’s some nice truly hollow base soft lead swaged bullets for the 38 Special available...AJ is casting gangs of hollow base 45s..... Awesome accomplishment!!

01 38-40.jpg

02 38-55.jpg

03 40-60.jpg

05 45 Colt.jpg

05 45 Colts.jpg

[J Miller]

Ben,

I have examples of Remington, Winchester, and CIL .45 Colt factory bullets pulled from both factory ammunition and as reloading components.
The older Remington bullets had a smaller HB than did Win or CIL, but now has only a concave base. The Winchester bullets had a full HB with thick skirts. The CIL were very similar to the Winchesters.
The only way to get Winchester bullets now is in loaded ammo. They are no longer sold as reloading components. I do have 500 of them stashed for possible future use.
Remington bullets are still available in bulk. I use a lot of them.
CIL has gone out of business so their bullets are no longer available. I do have a couple boxes of the CIL .45 Colt bullets as well.

The Ideal / Lyman 454190 mold is the .45 Colt factory bullet duplicate mold. It is a flat base. It also came in a GC version for what ever silly reason.

I do know from cartridges I've pulled down that most factory ammo with lead bullets from the black powder era were quite soft and had hollow bases. This along with the sudden impact of the burning black powder expanded the bullets and sealed the chambers and bores.

Perhaps I was mistaken about HB molds being available for all these bullets, but my minds eye thinks it has seen some. I know positively there is still one available. It's a .45 cal 260gr RN for the 455 Webley I believe.

My comments about the current generation of commercial bullets being too hard stands. Softer bullets will expand when loaded properly and will more than likely work better and be more accurate.

Joe

[Cliff]

One thing with these older caliber guns was the use of Black Powdr. It will

'bump up" bullets due to the way it burns. Elmer Keith did a lot of shooting of the old Sharps Arms. Many used a bullet small enough when pushed into the bore you could see light around the bullet. The bullets were usually 30 or 40 t 1 lead-tin allloy. When fired they would bump up sealing the bore. Also J.D. Wolf's book, "Loading the .45-70 Govt." He goes into a lot of detail explaining the expansion of the lead bullets. The 405 Govt. bullets were properly hollow based as they wanted to insure the bullet expanded into the rifling. When the 500 grain bullet was adopted they found the heavier bullet offered enough resistance to allow it to properly fill the rifling. I followed his directions on loading this cartridge and it worked great in an 1886 Winvhester as well as a trapdoor Springfield. Of course the C.O.L. was longer than most modern rifles can feed. Good Luck.

[JohndeFresno]

Joe,

You sure pull up some interesting stuff out of the air. I'm mainly posting to flag this to save it when everybody posts with their usual expertise - Thanx! Great post.

[J Miller]

Joe,

You sure pull up some interesting stuff out of the air. I'm mainly posting to flag this to save it when everybody posts with their usual expertise - Thanx! Great post.

John,
Sometimes I do and this wasn't one of my better ones. I just couldn't get it worded the way I wanted. Probably should have skipped it.

Joe

[Marvin S]

Hard bullets are often highly over rated and cause more problems when used in guns that don't need them. The hard crayon type lubes used by commercial casters is another problem in its self. I cast all of my own bullets for many different calibers (maybe 15 or so) and make them as fat and soft as needed. They are always lubed with lube that does not require a heater and some get pan lubed with my own mixture of bees wax, Vaseline and a touch of paraffin. Under sized hard cast with hard lube will no doubt give ya a lesson on gun cleaning. It's all the mentality of my bullets are hard and you can shoot them 3000fps.

[J Miller]

Marvin,

You are right and when you add the overly common bevel base to the mix it's just that much worse.

Joe

[Marvin S]

Oh the wonderful bevel base, created for the automated casting industry. However it don't really do us any favor's.

[Ben_Rumson]

Most of these old guns will all shoot good...given there’s enough spiral left (it doesn’t take much ) in the ole gas pipe to spin a bullet and the alloy is right...but more than likely it will depend on how much a fella really wants to go to get one to do it... Shooting BP is an option for those guns made for it, but that’s got its own set of problems that many don’t want to mess with it... So finding a proper bullet, or mold is the trick ..”Proper” may or may not be available in the cost effective “off the rack” generic molds offered from the usual suspects.. .Sooo... are you willing to pay twice or more than the going rate to obtain a proper mold or bullets cast from one? This fact alone probably eliminates about 80% in the herd (the smart ones lol) then it’s off to Gunbroker their old gun goes...
To make one of these guns shoot good, one may have to venture into the custom mold makers AO ..not to mention Bump dies to get a generic mold cast bullet to work.. and dang it, all this costs extry! (Cost/benefit/patience analysis time)....It doesn’t necessarily have to be a custom mold cut for your specific gun... But maybe one offered that’s been cut for certain chamber/barrel situations the generics mold sellers can’t make money on.. like a hollow base bullet mold.. Or maybe you have them take a known mold design and have the cannelure repositioned to suit your COL situation... or perhaps a Heeled bullet design.. the heel fits in the case so the cartridge will chamber, but the rest of the bullet is at or near optimum groove diameter... Lots of aversion out there to heeled bullets, yet that little lead bullet wonder 22 rimfire is shooting crimped soft lead heeled bullets without a hic-up by the zillions everyday.. So, I don’t really know if the old dash calibers are that picky.. or if it’s the owners that are picky and not willing to mess with something that’s not quick & easy..

[Sixgun]

There's no real trick in making the old guns shoot well. If the barrel is straight, decent rifling, with a good crown, the gun will shoot----well . The smoother the barrel, the less fouling will occur. Gas checks help a great deal if there is wear to the barrel or crown. I am talking cartridge longguns, not muzzleloaders, BPCR, schutzen, or handgun rounds that sometimes need a softer alloy.

I like a Lyman #2 alloy in hardness. I use wheelweights with 4% tin and water quench everything. This gives me the option of 1000 fps or 2000 fps. I'm not going to cast 1000 bullets with "this hardness" and another 1000 with "that hardness". Bullets get sized a thou or two over--sometimes groove diameter. Gotta experiment.

Common sense prevails here and bullets need to somewhat match the twist. A 400 grain bullet in 40 caliber won't stabilize in the 1-28 twist of an original 40-65 or 40-82. Other common sense details such as bullet fit to the throat, seating depth, velocity, powder selection and "paying attention to detail" all play important, and sometimes not important aspects to accuracy.

Experimentation is a continual need in getting the old guns to shoot, but knowledge is power (knowledge gained from experimentation) and usually I can beat most guesses and go straight to a load and a bullet and get acceptable accuracy. (3" @ 100 meters with a tang sight)

No one gets "smart" by reading. It will help you get started but the real test is in shooting &experimentation

There's so many variables here, a book can be written, (and many have ) and would be impossible to post it here. I have close to 40 years of shooting the old leverguns and I must have learned something. They are all I use for competition, hunting, and play-------with the exception of a few AR's and other semi's that I am sure will fill a future need in this violatile world -----------------Sixgun

Oh, with the exception of the 41 Long Colt, I have never used a heel bullet or a hollowbase of any kind

[KirkD]

Joe, you are right on the money about using soft cast bullets in these old guns. With the exception of my 30-30, where I send a cast bullet out the barrel at just over 2,100 fps, all my bullets are soft cast, from my sixgun 45 Schofield, to my 32-20, my 38-40, and on up to my 45-70. I make my bullets out of pure wheel weights, a mix of stick-on and clip on, usually with no tin added at all. My old Winchester catalogue from 1895 says that the 38-40 and the 44-40 used "pure lead" bullets. The bigger calibers usually used 1:20 from what I can recall, without actually checking. The other thing is to use a powder with about the same pressure curve as BP for the same BP ballistics. Soft lead, plus enough pressure will fill that bullet out to seal the throat and bore.

[ollogger]

i have a 73 with a fair bore in 32-20 also have the loading tool & mold so i made some 115 gr bullits with ww loaded some 4198 in her took it to my range & missed the target 50% of the time flopped the others on paper with oblonged holes long story short i use pure lead now .
at 50 yards it shoots 3 in now can ring the gong at 150 yd most of the time &that makes me smile
ollogger

[adirondakjack]

While much of what you say is true, the problems with very soft bullets come first in shipping, where bullets have to have decent packaging to arrive in good shape, then with lube. Soft lube ships poorly. So a harder, UPS lubed bullet ships well, and is easier to cast.

Also, high speed machines are not equipped to cast hollow based bullets. The three or more piece mold is not compatible with high speed casting machines. I played hob to get a "relatively fast" hand cranked machine to do it, and had been told by folks far and wide it could not be done. It can, but it ain't cheap.

So decent cast HB bullets of soft alloy are much more expensive to produce than hard bullets with flat or bevelled bases. Costs can get up there enough to rival the costs of jacketed bullets, which severely limits potential markets to those savvy in the ways of old and unwilling to make their own bullets.

That's about it. Ya got old guns trying to use modern, mass produced bullets that are what shooters want (cheap).

[Hobie]

I have 20-1 alloy for just that reason.

[w30wcf]

Joe,
I have had the pleasure of dissecting a number of different W.C.F. cartridges and the only one I ever found a hollow based bullet in was the .25-20. Never found any in the .32-20, .38-40, 44-40 or any of the rifle cartridges. All those dissected contained flat based bullets or bullets that had a very shallow dish in the base.

In addition to the .45-70, hollow based bullets were much more prevalent in the pistol cartridges... .38 Special, .44 Special, .45 Colt, etc.

I would certainly agree for the most part that at pedestrian velocities, a factory swaged softer bullet is better than commercial cast bullets with hard lube, tapered and sometimes less than perfect bases in harder alloy.

However, home cast bullets with flat bases that fit the barrel made from harder alloys do not necessarily take a back seat to softer bullets. The best group I ever fired from my 44-40 Marlin Cowboy (10 shots 2 1/2" @ 100 yards) was made with a bullet that had a bhn of 16.6 over 40 grs. of Swiss FFG.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Here's a cutaway pic I found showing the flat based factory 44-40 bullet and the hollow base bullet in the 38-44 revolver cartridge.



w30wcf

[J Miller]

Joe,

You sure pull up some interesting stuff out of the air. I'm mainly posting to flag this to save it when everybody posts with their usual expertise - Thanx! Great post.

John,
Sometimes I do and this wasn't one of my better ones. I just couldn't get it worded the way I wanted. Probably should have skipped it.

Joe

Jack,

Thanks for the comments. I've pulled down a bunch of 38 spcls of all vintages, and .45 Colts from ancient to modern. Almost all of them had either a real hollow base or a concave base.

I've already admitting I stepped on it when I started this thread. I worded it badly and made some mistakes. I wish adirondakjack hadn't resurrected it. I think he's picking on me

I still believe what I said and perhaps I should re-right it without the errors. But that might confuse things. Wait ... they are already confused.

Joe

[RIHMFIRE]

excellent topic....

how am i gonna remember all the good advice from this here forum?!!

[J Miller]

excellent topic....

how am i gonna remember all the good advice from this here forum?!!

When I run across a thread that has info I want to keep I either bookmark it in a folder with my forum links, or do a "save as" and save it as a web page complete or an HTML. That keeps everything including the links.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Hi Joe,
Good thread, great information from the posters. Thank you for starting it.

In reviewing the older Winchester and UMC catalogs, I have, it is interesting to note that factory W.C.F. ammunition using soft lead bullets were mostly loaded only with only black or semi-smokeless powders. Back then, smokeless was mostly used with "Metal Patched" (jacketed) bullets and relatively few lead bullet factory W.C.F. cartridges.

If smokeless would have become the primary propellant used with lead bullets back then, no doubt that hollow based bullets would have been developed for the W.C.F. cartridges.

w30wcf

[cshold]

Hummm!
Now yeah done got me to wonderin as to hard or soft
bullets in these 38-40's I just orderd yesterday.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5075.html

Indeed a very good topic Joe

[w30wcf]

casastahle,
Based on the bullet weight, the bullets used are likely those offered by GOEX which are advertised to be made from a soft alloy. In my experience, if the bullet fits the barrel well, bullets in either hard or soft alloy with b.p. in the W.C.F. '73 cartridges will probably shoot about the same. If the bullet fit to the barrel fit is not precise, the softer alloy will give better groups.

If your barrel is smooth, with the GOEX bullet which appears to carry a good amount of lube, you should be able to shoot several magazines full before accuracy starts to suffer. If your barrel is not smooth and is pitted, the b.p. fouling tends to build faster and groups will likely start to open up after a magazine or 2 full.

Goex Black Dawge 175 gr 38-40 bullet


w30wcf

[cshold]

Great picture and thanks w30wcf.

before I placed my order, I did contact Buffalo Arms Co.
and asked them about there 38-40 BP ammo.

I was told they use no filler and these are full house
compressed BP loads.

So I am thinking these will give me about 1,200 to 1,250 fps. vel.
out of the 24” barrel.

Wish now I would have thought to ask about the bullet.

But if it’s the same one in the picture, looks good to me.